Deity Walkthrough - Native America

Dang, I was really hoping to see how that Oracle gambit played out. :( I guess it wasn't meant to be.

So what's your plan with this game? Looks like it calls for some REX. Without knowing more of the map I'd say a city 2N1W of the coastal rice is nice and later another one 2E1N of the pigs. I'd love to see a bit more of the map to the east and northeast before making a firm decision.

Yeah, it was too bad about that game--I was looking forward to it too. Cathy was the worst possible AI to get as she gets off to a very fast start with creative/imperialistic. She was probably getting her first axeman before my starting fishing boat was up. There was no way of avoiding that.

As to the active game; I agree with getting some more scouting done before discussing plans. I decided to play another quickie up until turn 49 / 2040 BC. I'll summarize soon-ish.
 
Pigs on a grassland hill with a river. Is there any better tile? Double pigs taboot. You should get off to a nice start but with Washington so close to the south and jungle to your immediate north, where do you expand? The turf to your west is ok and we'll see what opens to the east.

Would you consider settling 3E of the banana in your BFC? That city would claim another banana and would share the banana, rice, and sweet piggies tile with your capital. With slavery, you can share these tiles early to grow back quickly and split them up early so you don't run into unhappiness. Both of the banana tiles could be farmed early but you'll need Iron Working for the north one. In this instance, overlap could be a good thing. Once your capital is at its happiness limit, you can build units there while driving most of the food tiles to the second city to crank out settlers fast, or vice versa. Anyway, I've already written too much on what may be a bad idea; I only play on monarch which is so much more forgiving than this undertaking.
 
I had just finished AH and found horses in my BFC. With that in mind I decided to research the wheel next before BW to enable chariots. I end the turn and am greeted by Darius from the NE. That's another relatively peaceful neighbour, it seems I picked the wrong game for SB--Fred would probably survive here. Oh well, better safe than sorry. The scary thing about Willem and Darius is that they both research liberalism very early most games--I might end up losing that free tech.

Turn 18 / 3280 BC
Willem converts to Hinduism (as expected).

Scouting reveals a really good city spot to the south/SE, but I doubt I can get there before either Willem or Washington. The good news is that the 2 religion founders will share borders.

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Cahokia made 1 warrior to prevent unhappiness and then started on chariots while growing to size 5. I didn't go for an early settler here as there are many good city spots (as you will see). There are a lot of good tiles to work in its BFC too. I'm not really sure what to do with this capital--there are so many options. I usually cottage capitals with a lot of riverside grassland, but in this case I also have many food resources, some grassland hills and the philosophical trait. I guess I should try to grow it as big as possible with HR and work both cottages and specialists.

A look at the world as we know it 2320 BC:

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Closer look at the eastern land:

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I just completed my settler and started thinking about where to settle. I decided to grab as much land in the centre as possible. I'm going to be competing with Darius and Willem there so I better get started right away. I settled on the spot guarded by the southern chariot. It will block Willem from settling on 'my' river and it's also settled in a way making it unlikely for him to make a city right next to it. I want to avoid his cultural pressure.

By 2040 BC I have made a dog soldier and another chariot to help me fight the (many) barbs coming from the foggy west. I whipped a worker at size 5 after the settler and just grew back to size 4. I put a settler in the queue but I don't have any hammers invested yet. I think it's more important to grab as much of the good land as possible and postpone that 3rd worker for now.

na30011.jpg


I'm thinking of settling on the forested grassland hill. It will have a lot of river tiles, 2 food resources and protection from Darius. If anyone's going to rush me this game it would have to be him. Also note the excellently placed barbarian city. Unfortunately dog soldiers and chariots suck at taking barb cities so I'm afraid I won't get it.

na30012.jpg


Washington has already settled 2 cities south of me but he has yet to go NW. I should prioritize a blocking city there soon too.
 
Pigs on a grassland hill with a river. Is there any better tile? Double pigs taboot. You should get off to a nice start but with Washington so close to the south and jungle to your immediate north, where do you expand? The turf to your west is ok and we'll see what opens to the east.
Pigs are great, but corn is better as it's improved by biology and yields more health (granary). Still, I agree that it's an excellent tile.

Would you consider settling 3E of the banana in your BFC? That city would claim another banana and would share the banana, rice, and sweet piggies tile with your capital. With slavery, you can share these tiles early to grow back quickly and split them up early so you don't run into unhappiness. Both of the banana tiles could be farmed early but you'll need Iron Working for the north one. In this instance, overlap could be a good thing. Once your capital is at its happiness limit, you can build units there while driving most of the food tiles to the second city to crank out settlers fast, or vice versa. Anyway, I've already written too much on what may be a bad idea; I only play on monarch which is so much more forgiving than this undertaking.
I usually use a lot of overlap, but when it comes to settling your first cities on deity it's usually a bad thing. You usually want to settle in a way that you grab as much land as possible as that's the most important thing early on.
 
So much nice land! If you weren't playing on deity this would be a total romp. I still like the west coast rice/horse city to block Washington. The forested grassland hill you mentioned is another great spot. Would it make sense to put a city on the river 2W of the gems first or is that too close to Darius? Your other settling options seem very limited. I don't think you can settle that southern city and even if you could it would be under tremendous pressure. North is blocked by Darius and NW is desert. I guess 4 cities is all you can get before upkeep cripples you anyway, right?
 
I love getting AI rushed by a stack of axes that early on Deity. Glad I'm not the only one that happens to!
 
Assuming I have the same forested grassland hill in mind...

A major downside of the spot seems to be that a city in that location will have only very limited functionality until Iron Working. The food is entangled in jungles, and the large number of jungle squares will put quite a restrictive health cap on the city. The same goes for the spot you've put Poverty Point in. Won't this be a problem?

edit: I just realized that the river and the 4 forrests will alleviate most of the health loss from the jungles.
 
Just got a link from rolo... Too bad you've been rushed, fred's a nice leader.

Didn't read the whole discussion now, but... Why did you want chariots before dog soldiers? With all the forest/jungle around 2MP units won't be that great (as well as they don't get defensive bonuses), also, 3.17 is supposed to spawn more barb spears.

Do you plan on capturing that rice / 2gems city :drool: ?
 
Assuming I have the same forested grassland hill in mind...

A major downside of the spot seems to be that a city in that location will have only very limited functionality until Iron Working. The food is entangled in jungles, and the large number of jungle squares will put quite a restrictive health cap on the city. The same goes for the spot you've put Poverty Point in. Won't this be a problem?

edit: I just realized that the river and the 4 forrests will alleviate most of the health loss from the jungles.
As you edited in, fresh water helps a lot. I also have that rice waiting to be irrigated for additional health. The cities will struggle before IW indeed, but if I don't settle them now the AIs will. I'm not that happy about the way the map turned out, I think the Fred one could be much more fun to play and follow. :( Getting so many grassland rivers like this makes it hard to resist unexciting cottage spam.

mystyfly said:
Didn't read the whole discussion now, but... Why did you want chariots before dog soldiers? With all the forest/jungle around 2MP units won't be that great (as well as they don't get defensive bonuses), also, 3.17 is supposed to spawn more barb spears.
Because I didn't have mining meaning that I can start producing units much earlier by teching the wheel. It would take a really long time teching BW meaning no early cities (unless I want to risk guarding them with warriors). I'll make dog soldiers over chariots once BW is in.

So much nice land! If you weren't playing on deity this would be a total romp. I still like the west coast rice/horse city to block Washington. The forested grassland hill you mentioned is another great spot. Would it make sense to put a city on the river 2W of the gems first or is that too close to Darius? Your other settling options seem very limited. I don't think you can settle that southern city and even if you could it would be under tremendous pressure. North is blocked by Darius and NW is desert. I guess 4 cities is all you can get before upkeep cripples you anyway, right?
A city on the river claiming the gems won't have a food resource, so I don't think I want to go there. If it was guaranteed to claim the gems then it might be good, but whoever claims that barbarian city will have one of them in the first ring and if Willem gets it I might lose the other one too.
 
I've just read you picked wheel before BW. I was somehow assuming you already knew mining.
 
I started doing some pangea maps and I got rushed early 2 games in a row. First by wang kon before I could get a single chariot up, second by gilgamesh.
 
This game might not be that easy after all. Yes, I have some good land, but so does my neighbours (some have even better starting locations) and Darius and Willem are very good techers. Furthermore I don’t have any real commerce resources, just a bunch of riverside tiles. Normally I find my games are more successful with poor/mediocre land and some natural resources rather than a bunch of good tiles which needs to be worked. The cities will become very powerful, but it could take some time and time is something you don’t have a lot of in deity games—especially vs. Darius and Willem coupled together. I wanted to showcase a strategy of getting steel from liberalism with lots of GS usage, but that might not work here as I probably can’t hold off on liberalism.

I decided to get that 3rd worker out before the settler after all. After finishing it I put some hammers into a granary while growing to size 5 and then started on another settler.

Darius researched the alphabet very early this game, he had it when I randomly checked at about 1800 BC. Furthermore he does not have mysticism, so I decide to opt for the Oracle. I have a lot of forests and a capital with a lot of production. I also need to make sure I have something to trade around to these big techers. If I end up too far behind there’s no real way to catch up. Darius and Willem tend to go for religions too which means philosophy can't be relied on as much.

Whether I’d successfully get the Oracle was questionable at the time, but at any rate it’s not a big side-track here. The techs required are cheap and with Cahokia producing a lot of :hammers: I could simply take the gold from not finishing it in time and use it to fund more expansion. It’s pretty much a win/neutral situation—can’t hurt me much but there’s a lot to gain. I finished pottery since last stop and now start on meditation -> priesthood.

I’ve finished my settler but I decide to settle south-wards instead of approaching Darius. As I mentioned above the one thing that I lack is commerce resources to get me started and the closest thing to that is down there—a riverside wine tile. I usually don’t pursue wine that actively, but being riverside it’s a very good tile. Furthermore the city can borrow the pigs from Cahokia (has enough food) and share the cows with Poverty Point. It can also start maturing cottages for Cahokia in time for bureaucracy—I’d rather have Cahokia work the riverside grassland hills.

I saw some threads where people were complaining about the AIs city placement. I can’t relate too much to that—I find the blue circles and AI cities to be founded in good spots most of the time. Here’s an example:

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Perfect spot; exactly where I wanted it. This city might prove marginal later on in the game, but I tend to go for the immediate gain in most scenarios. Being able to work the pigs the moment it's settled is a very big boost and time-saver. The important thing is to keep up with the AIs early on and be able to get some trading done.

Also note that nobody’s sharing religion here. I’m happy that I have a philosophical civ because chances are I won’t be able to use pacifism this game as I’m not spiritual. With spiritual I could sneak in and out in burst but I’d have to commit here as anarchy is troublesome—staying in paganism will probably be my choice unless something happens.

At some point between 1600 and 1400 BC Darius finished researching currency as well. :eek: It was quite scary at first, but the benefit is most certainly there. As I mentioned earlier Darius did not have mysticism, so now I get to sell him all of my Oracle techs. Selling does not count towards WFYABTA (only received techs) so these are great deals (although the last 2 were very cheap for him). I start off by selling him mysticism for 40 gold.

The Oracle is still up for grabs at 1320 BC so I decide to go for it aggressively now. I had prepared a bunch of forests (pre-chopped) and whip out a settler for overflow.

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By turn 70 / 1200 BC I can relax a bit—the Oracle is mine. I’m going to pick metal casting for trade bait.

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I sell meditation to Darius for 30 gold and priesthood for 20.

Time to use that whipped settler for something. I decided to grab some land to the west now.

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I didn’t agree with the blue circle this time (the AI wanted the city 1N of where it is now)—moving it 1S has some big benefits to it. For starters I'll get to work the pigs much earlier (no need for a border pop) but it also borrows a riverside grassland from the capital meaning that this city can start maturing a cottage for Cahokia too. It can work the pigs, the grassland cottage and a farm and then whip a granary and a library once it reaches size 4. After the initial whipping I will probably run a lot of specialists there. It will have a lot of food with the banana and as I mentioned in one of my earlier threads I almost never cottage regular grassland without a financial leader. It simply takes too much time to get something in return in my experience. On lower levels you work yourself through the technology tree at a slower rate which means you have more time to work your cottages, but on deity everything flies by so fast. If I work more tiles there it would have to be the grassland hills.

A look at the technology screen:

ya10003.jpg


- metal casting to Darius for monarchy, sailing and 10 gold.
- metal casting to Willem for the alphabet.
A second look at the technology screen shows that Washington is lacking knowledge of writing (and thus the alphabet)—I’ll use that to trade for IW with him soon.

Willem is Washington’s worst enemy already. It seems I won’t get attacked early on this game.

Pausing this at 975 BC, here’s a look at the land and city builds.

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I just found out about the iron and getting it is a big priority. The settler in progress in Cahokia is going to settle the yellow X. I have a chariot on his way to fogbust the spot.

I’m going to grow Poverty Point to size 4 and then hopefully whip out a settler for the red X. The rice is in Gordium’s 2nd ring so I should be able to take control of it. I’ll have the irrigated banana too thus I can whip out buildings producing culture with ease. Mound city will probably be set to getting some more workers.

I haven’t been able to get an early GP this time, there’s been so much else to do. As things stand my first GP will probably be a prophet—that’s the downside to getting the Oracle, that stupid GPP pollution.

I'll probably have research at 0% for some time. I want to get some libraries up before devoting my commerce to :science: and I also want to see what the AI is getting and plan my research accordingly for some trades.
 
Thank you - not only for showing your game, but for sharing your thoughts and your planning! :)
 
Gah! Why didn't I notice this thread earlier? :mad:

Glad you're doing another one. This is definitely the most educational thread going on at the forum right now imo. I'll be pushing F5 every 2 minutes from now on to see if there's an update.

I've always considered Sitting Bull as one of the best leader choices for Deity. Philosophical is my favourite trait, and proper bulbing can be vital on Deity. Protective adds some much-needed security, among with the totem pole and resourceless UU. I've had my own Deity experiement going on for some time now (playing as SB), and I'm doing quite well. I got a bit lucky with the map though (enough room to expand and some floodplains).

Good luck with your game, keep up the good work!
 
Great read so far!

Willem is Washington’s worst enemy already. It seems I won’t get attacked early on this game.

Does the AI always pick worst enemy over weakest civ as a war target, assuming worst enemy is an eligible candidate, and not too strong? Or is it just more probable that the worst enemy will be the chosen target?

Thanks.
 
Selling does not count towards WFYABTA (only received techs) so these are great deals (although the last 2 were very cheap for him). I start off by selling him mysticism for 40 gold.
If I understand WFYABTA correctly, selling counts towards the AIs WFYABTA, meaning, Darius can now trade 2 less techs from Willem and Washington (unless friendly), so in addition to getting gold, you will somewhat slow him down 2000 years from now.
 
Does the AI always pick worst enemy over weakest civ as a war target, assuming worst enemy is an eligible candidate, and not too strong? Or is it just more probable that the worst enemy will be the chosen target?

depends on the ai; the opportunists, not necessarily, but washington ain't, so yes. On the other hand, oranje is quite sneaky... might be interesting.
 
Hmm i didn't know that... interesting. At any rate rusten needs to get someone to friendly to be able to trade enough... Although both darius and willem have rather high caps i belive. Seriously though with darius + willem + washington as neighbours this screams cultural to me... None of these are going to attack you unless you do something very strange... The red spot should then obviously be settled 1E to get 2 bannans + rice and be a GP farm... Although i don't see why it wouldn't be settled there in the first place... You are philo so it shouldn't be too hard to get rather fast victory..
 
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