Democratic Party Platform: How to win?

Drain the swamp would be too much to ask of anyone in the 2 parties, Warren's strength is her apparent sincerity about Wall St but her party is bankrolled by big money. I'd like to see Warren and Biden go at each other in a debate about the financial system.
 
The campaign where he won? I don't like this example much :dunno:

To be clear, I wanted examples of Warren "out-trolling" Trump, not examples of Warren trolling Trump. I'm not sure it's even really possible to "out-troll" Trump because of certain attributes of his supporters that we don't need to repeat again here.
That's fair. It's a very subjective judgment... and especially since he never actually stops trolling... its tough to really say that anyone outdoes him. I still think that of all the people that have tried to actually troll him back, she been one of the folks who have gone after him the hardest...

But most importantly, I don't think that trolling-fights with Trump is going to get her or anyone that matter to an election victory. I don't know for sure what the winning formula is, but I'm pretty sure trading name-calling with Trump on twitter isn't it.
 
The Dems won't fix everything if they win in 2020 and rule to 2024/2028/2032. It's impossible.

They *can* win, but their focus either goes into 'fixing America's prestige and status on the world stage' (probably unpopular and a suicide note) or 'fixing America internally' via waging infrastructure projects, job education, environmental cleanup, et al.

They can't do both. One or the other and each comes with its ups and downs. My dream, of course, is an internally focused America for a decade. Infrastructure, universal healthcare, modern post-industrial job education, universal tertiary education, green new deal, city revival, farmer support on one hand and urban support on the other. Maybe the Dems zip their mouths about Gun Control for a few elections just to waive over some moderate single issue 2A voters in the Midwest and Plains, work on a new 'Great Society'. An America that looks within should be their goal, that intentionally focuses on the Rust Belt and Plains JUST AS MUCH as the Coast, a whole 'we're in this together' line.
 
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They can't do both.
I mean, I don't think the next president has to be a "Dem" (Bernie wasn't really a Dem, btw), but it's possible to do both. Fixing prestige would literally require not being like Trump. That's it. Maybe sign some climate change deal and stop insulting every world leader on Twitter.
 
But most importantly, I don't think that trolling-fights with Trump is going to get her or anyone that matter to an election victory. I don't know for sure what the winning formula is, but I'm pretty sure trading name-calling with Trump on twitter isn't it.

Well, exactly. A serious problem for the Democrats is that the temptation to publicly pwn Trump may prove to be something of a distraction from the real work of building a platform and party that will fight for a better life for Americans.

I mean, I don't think the next president has to be a "Dem" (Bernie wasn't really a Dem, btw), but it's possible to do both. Fixing prestige would literally require not being like Trump. That's it. Maybe sign some climate change deal and stop insulting every world leader on Twitter.

The Dems won't fix everything if they win in 2020 and rule to 2024/2028/2032. It's impossible.

I don't believe that there is some sort of balance where the Democrats can either "fix" the domestic or foreign position of the US, but I do believe the damage that Trump has done will take decades to undo. Trump has pretty much destroyed the State Department and returning it to where it was the day he took office will take a long time. Domestically Trump has warped politics such that the rule of capital is more rhetorically, ideologically, and factually entrenched than ever. I was pretty optimistic in 2016 that the national conversation might really be able to take an anticapitalist turn, that we might start to talk about how to seriously rein in capital, but Trump's victory has destroyed that hope completely. He's giving people a real-time lesson in how racism divides the working classes against one another so that capital's rule goes unchallenged.
Hell, it's bad enough that some of the most vicious capitalists in the world are now able to present themselves as #Resistance heroes to the exact group of people in the US that I was hoping in 2016 would be primed to turn into real anticapitalists.
 
I mean, I don't think the next president has to be a "Dem" (Bernie wasn't really a Dem, btw), but it's possible to do both. Fixing prestige would literally require not being like Trump. That's it. Maybe sign some climate change deal and stop insulting every world leader on Twitter.

It is much easier to destroy than build, and Trump has destroyed a lot, or hammered the nail-in-the-coffin to geopolitical stances and projects along with internal organs that took decades to form and normalize. Whether or not those stances and projects are better off mangled is up in the air, but the Dems can't just go in 2020/2024/2028 "Hey, um, sorry about that, let's go back to Status Quo Ante...". Everything has to be rebuilt, experience regained/relearned, deals hammered out again. Just getting rid of Trump won't be enough, you have to undo his ramifications and actions, internally and externally across hundreds if not thousands of groups, peoples, and nations all together. That workload alone is enough to keep a administration busy for four to twelve years.
 
The first thing the democrats should do is assume that the Republican candidate is somewhat more competent than the Donald.

They will need a respected leader, a good set of policies and a genuine team of talent working together.

Think how the more modest Clement Attlee beat the famous Winston Churchill.
 
Well, exactly. A serious problem for the Democrats is that the temptation to publicly pwn Trump may prove to be something of a distraction from the real work of building a platform and party that will fight for a better life for Americans.





I don't believe that there is some sort of balance where the Democrats can either "fix" the domestic or foreign position of the US, but I do believe the damage that Trump has done will take decades to undo. Trump has pretty much destroyed the State Department and returning it to where it was the day he took office will take a long time. Domestically Trump has warped politics such that the rule of capital is more rhetorically, ideologically, and factually entrenched than ever. I was pretty optimistic in 2016 that the national conversation might really be able to take an anticapitalist turn, that we might start to talk about how to seriously rein in capital, but Trump's victory has destroyed that hope completely. He's giving people a real-time lesson in how racism divides the working classes against one another so that capital's rule goes unchallenged.
Hell, it's bad enough that some of the most vicious capitalists in the world are now able to present themselves as #Resistance heroes to the exact group of people in the US that I was hoping in 2016 would be primed to turn into real anticapitalists.

Right
So Trump inspired people to thoughts, convictions, attitudes we despise. Whether or not by cunning does not matter because it happened.

They will need a respected leader, a good set of policies and a genuine team of talent working together.
yes.
And keep your head cool and your eyes on the ball



So the Dem's need a leader that can inspire the people into the better direction. Can inspire the team and the grassroots.
After all, you cannot change a democracy in the WH... it happens between the people. The WH a place where you can take more influence how people change.
 
That's fair. It's a very subjective judgment... and especially since he never actually stops trolling... its tough to really say that anyone outdoes him. I still think that of all the people that have tried to actually troll him back, she been one of the folks who have gone after him the hardest...

But most importantly, I don't think that trolling-fights with Trump is going to get her or anyone that matter to an election victory. I don't know for sure what the winning formula is, but I'm pretty sure trading name-calling with Trump on twitter isn't it.

I would have loved an Obama vs Trump election, one the reasons Trump supposedly dislikes Obama is how badly Trump got roasted by him at a correspondences dinner or some big event. I think Obama's calm comebacks would be a match for Trump. I nominate Obama! Is that even possible? Nah, he wouldn't do that to Biden.
 
Not One Dime! No More Wars! Save Our World! We Want Jobs! Count Our Votes!

Any other suggestions?

A couple things here.

1) I think you're getting too caught up in Trump's rally chants. By repeatable and simple I'm not talking about something that necessarily has to be chantable, and in fact, I think getting too caught up in crafting "something your supporters can chant" heavily limits the options of what you can lead with as a party. "Neatly conforms to a 3-syllable slogan we can recite in sing-song" shouldn't be a driving criterion for platforming. My point rather was that the platform positions should be things that can be expressed succinctly and coherently in such a way that: a) everyone knows exactly what the position represents, and b) anybody can repeat to friends, family, or even strangers on the street. "Build the wall," happens to conform itself well to chanting, but more importantly represents a clear agenda centered around a simple call to action which anybody can internalize and repeat to others as a way to win over allies. The distinction isn't between "build the wall" and "build the effing wall" (i.e. chantability) but "build the wall" vs "We should implement a comprehensive scheme of border security comprising an expansion of ICE, restriction of visas, and the extension and fortification of existing border structures" or "We should build a border perimeter consisting of a fence of metal slats roughly 30 feet in height with deep concrete foundations so as to prevent tunneling." Obama's "Change" is a good example of what I'm talking about. It's a simple message which points to a larger ideological framework that is immediately understandable to anybody you tell it to and which supporters can easily use as a tool to proselytize. It also makes it easier to jam the airwaves with your message. While your political opponent is busy trying to pick apart the dangers of such a vague slogan, you've already told 10 more people about "Change." This was very visible in 2016: A Democrat may be able to spend 5 minutes explaining cogently why the construction of a wall is financially, logistically, ecologically and geographically absurd and pointless, but by that point the potential Trump supporter has already tuned out and went to tell his friends about the Wall. "New Deal" is another great example of an extremely simple and effective political slogan.

2) I think a big component of whatever message the Democrats choose for 2020 is that it has to be 1) a concrete policy, 2) a positive call to action, and 3) representing a general issue (i.e. not a response to a specific event). On the basis of these three criteria, I don't think any of your proposed slogans really work.

Here's the why for each one:

Not One Dime! - it's a good slogan in this moment to rally the Democrats as a coherent front to petition congress not to cave to Trump's demands. But as a slogan for 2020, it is at once too specific and too vague. It is too vague in the sense that, absent the context of this budget fight, it is completely meaningless. Not One Dime - whose dime? why? for what budgetary issue? Either the slogan directly refers to this budget fight which will be a nonissue by 2020 and many voters may well have forgotten about it by then, or it's intended as a general national condition, in which case it means nothing. It also fails on the point of representing a positive call to action. It isn't positive, i.e. it isn't saying what you will do when elected, but rather what you won't, and it isn't a positive action in that it doesn't command the voters together to do something. All this slogan does is place your party within the context of the other side, which you don't want to do because 1) you're essentially giving the Republicans free messaging (Not One Dime more? For what? The Wall. Oh yeah! Build the Wall!), and 2) it runs into the thing I mentioned before, dispositive messaging requires you to build a case for why you won't do the thing, and in the time you've spent building that case, the other side has told hundreds of other people about the thing that they want to do. Plus the slogan is really bad optically: "Vote for us so we can go to Washington and not do stuff!" If the objective is to message about border security or immigration reform, you should slogan around those positive, actionable issues. "Citizenship for DREAMers" or "Path to Citizenship" or the like.

No More Wars! - Again, it's not positive, and not actionable. It's not good optics to campaign on what you won't do. It's not exciting, it doesn't capture the popular imagination. "Vote for us so we can go to Washington and not do stuff!" If the slogan is about ending our military presence in Syria/Afghanistan/Iraq it should be "Bring Our Troops Home" or something like that. If it's about reducing the military budget, the slogan should say something about that.

Save Our World - Too vague, and it doesn't represent a clear call to action. It sounds like a plea. Either the politician says it and it comes across like the politician doesn't have a plan and is asking for someone else to do the job, or the voters say it and it makes the voters sound powerless - it sounds like a plea for help. This is an example of what I was referring to when I said that hyperfocusing on chants ends up weakening the overall message. "Let's save our world" sounds much more powerful, although, again, it doesn't refer to specific policy proposals. Green New Deal has the advantage of conveying a straightforward message that is understood as "saving our world" and representing concrete, actionable policy proposals. "Send us to Washington so we can implement these specific policies that our nation desperately needs"

We Want Jobs - Similar problems to "Save Our World." Either the candidate says it and it sounds like the candidate doesn't have any idea of what to do, or the voters say it and it deprives them of agency. It also looks bad optically, "Look at these entitled Democrats demanding a handout!"

Count Our Votes is a good one, although again I'd prefer it to center around a specific policy to implement.
 
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Democrats should look for an inclusive message.

Opportunities for All.

Make it Work for Everybody.

They must not get tagged with supporting everybody but straight whites men etc.
 
I would have loved an Obama vs Trump election, one the reasons Trump supposedly dislikes Obama is how badly Trump got roasted by him at a correspondences dinner or some big event. I think Obama's calm comebacks would be a match for Trump. I nominate Obama! Is that even possible? Nah, he wouldn't do that to Biden.
Term limits make Obama ineligible, sadly.
A couple things here.

1) I think you're getting too caught up in Trump's rally chants. By repeatable and simple I'm not talking about something that necessarily has to be chantable, and in fact, I think getting too caught up in crafting "something your supporters can chant" heavily limits the options of what you can lead with as a party. "Neatly conforms to a 3-syllable slogan we can recite in sing-song" shouldn't be a driving criterion for platforming. My point rather was that the platform positions should be things that can be expressed succinctly and coherently in such a way that: a) everyone knows exactly what the position represents, and b) anybody can repeat to friends, family, or even strangers on the street. "Build the wall," happens to conform itself well to chanting, but more importantly represents a clear agenda centered around a simple call to action which anybody can internalize and repeat to others as a way to win over allies. The distinction isn't between "build the wall" and "build the effing wall" (i.e. chantability) but "build the wall" vs "We should implement a comprehensive scheme of border security comprising an expansion of ICE, restriction of visas, and the extension and fortification of existing border structures" or "We should build a border perimeter consisting of a fence of metal slats roughly 30 feet in height with deep concrete foundations so as to prevent tunneling." Obama's "Change" is a good example of what I'm talking about. It's a simple message which points to a larger ideological framework that is immediately understandable to anybody you tell it to and which supporters can easily use as a tool to proselytize. It also makes it easier to jam the airwaves with your message. While your political opponent is busy trying to pick apart the dangers of such a vague slogan, you've already told 10 more people about "Change." This was very visible in 2016: A Democrat may be able to spend 5 minutes explaining cogently why the construction of a wall is financially, logistically, ecologically and geographically absurd and pointless, but by that point the potential Trump supporter has already tuned out and went to tell his friends about the Wall. "New Deal" is another great example of an extremely simple and effective political slogan.

2) I think a big component of whatever message the Democrats choose for 2020 is that it has to be 1) a concrete policy, 2) a positive call to action, and 3) representing a general issue (i.e. not a response to a specific event). On the basis of these three criteria, I don't think any of your proposed slogans really work.

Here's the why for each one:

Not One Dime! - it's a good slogan in this moment to rally the Democrats as a coherent front to petition congress not to cave to Trump's demands. But as a slogan for 2020, it is at once too specific and too vague. It is too vague in the sense that, absent the context of this budget fight, it is completely meaningless. Not One Dime - whose dime? why? for what budgetary issue? Either the slogan directly refers to this budget fight which will be a nonissue by 2020 and many voters may well have forgotten about it by then, or it's intended as a general national condition, in which case it means nothing. It also fails on the point of representing a positive call to action. It isn't positive, i.e. it isn't saying what you will do when elected, but rather what you won't, and it isn't a positive action in that it doesn't command the voters together to do something. All this slogan does is place your party within the context of the other side, which you don't want to do because 1) you're essentially giving the Republicans free messaging (Not One Dime more? For what? The Wall. Oh yeah! Build the Wall!), and 2) it runs into the thing I mentioned before, dispositive messaging requires you to build a case for why you won't do the thing, and in the time you've spent building that case, the other side has told hundreds of other people about the thing that they want to do. Plus the slogan is really bad optically: "Vote for us so we can go to Washington and not do stuff!" If the objective is to message about border security or immigration reform, you should slogan around those positive, actionable issues. "Citizenship for DREAMers" or "Path to Citizenship" or the like.

No More Wars! - Again, it's not positive, and not actionable. It's not good optics to campaign on what you won't do. It's not exciting, it doesn't capture the popular imagination. "Vote for us so we can go to Washington and not do stuff!" If the slogan is about ending our military presence in Syria/Afghanistan/Iraq it should be "Bring Our Troops Home" or something like that. If it's about reducing the military budget, the slogan should say something about that.

Save Our World - Too vague, and it doesn't represent a clear call to action. It sounds like a plea. Either the politician says it and it comes across like the politician doesn't have a plan and is asking for someone else to do the job, or the voters say it and it makes the voters sound powerless - it sounds like a plea for help. This is an example of what I was referring to when I said that hyperfocusing on chants ends up weakening the overall message. "Let's save our world" sounds much more powerful, although, again, it doesn't refer to specific policy proposals. Green New Deal has the advantage of conveying a straightforward message that is understood as "saving our world" and representing concrete, actionable policy proposals. "Send us to Washington so we can implement these specific policies that our nation desperately needs"

We Want Jobs - Similar problems to "Save Our World." Either the candidate says it and it sounds like the candidate doesn't have any idea of what to do, or the voters say it and it deprives them of agency. It also looks bad optically, "Look at these entitled Democrats demanding a handout!"

Count Our Votes is a good one, although again I'd prefer it to center around a specific policy to implement.
The chant-friendly focus was a bit tongue in cheek, but I agree with your points. "Save the Planet" for example is much clearer than "Save Our World" but less chant-friendly. Its also is a little bit too tree-hugger'ey to appeal to the Midwestern folks we need to motivate to win all the Great Lakes states. I worry that "Green New Deal" suffers from numerous problems simultaneously. Its simultaneously very vague sounding along with sounding very tree-hugging liberal-esque... add to that the problem that the explanation of what the Green New Deal actually is supposed to be is going to come off as very eye-glazing'ly complex... except for the carbon tax... so that's the takeaway people are going to get from it... which of course plays right into the Republicans hands.

I will say that simple, vague/ambiguous slogans lend themselves to people easily projecting their own desires/expectations onto them... which I'd say works to your advantage. Obama's "Hope" and "Change" were good examples of this... people read whatever they wanted into them. MAGA did this very well. The Democrats definitely need something to appeal to people who want more/better jobs, steady work and access to some upward mobility. Something hopeful, like "A New Day" might accomplish this. I guess we could replace "No More Wars" with "End the Wars", but then again Trump has been calling for an end to military actions too, so there's that. I'm glad you like "Not One Dime!" though ;)
 
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Democrats should look for an inclusive message.
Opportunities for All.
Make it Work for Everybody.
They must not get tagged with supporting everybody but straight whites men etc.
They will get accused of this regardless. The constant dynamic at play is you have a system that historically primarily focused on supporting a narrow or specific group/demographic... as those support systems and opportunities are gradually opened up to a wider range of folks, many folks in the original preferred group will necessarily perceive/interpret this transition as things being taken away from them. They will not see these changes as the system becoming more "fair" or "working for everybody" or creating "opportunity for all"... they will see it as the support that they are entitled to, that belonged to their forebears, being stolen from them and given to "others"... and they will resent this.
 
Well, exactly. A serious problem for the Democrats is that the temptation to publicly pwn Trump may prove to be something of a distraction from the real work of building a platform and party that will fight for a better life for Americans.
That's fair. It's a very subjective judgment... and especially since he never actually stops trolling... its tough to really say that anyone outdoes him. I still think that of all the people that have tried to actually troll him back, she been one of the folks who have gone after him the hardest...

But most importantly, I don't think that trolling-fights with Trump is going to get her or anyone that matter to an election victory. I don't know for sure what the winning formula is, but I'm pretty sure trading name-calling with Trump on twitter isn't it.
She doesn't have to troll him, she just has to take hard stances against him, call him out for his malfeasance and offer up her own policy visions. She is good at all of that.

I don't know if I think she will win the primaries and I don't know I'd support her over someone else either. I just happen to think she has the right temperament for the moment. But hey, 2020 will be a different moment and maybe she won't be right for that time.
That workload alone is enough to keep a administration busy for four to twelve years.
And that's why I think the damage is effectively done for our democracy. I believe that the failure to retake the Senate this year sort of doomed the country to a slide into one party rule. This was the last chance to prevent a stuffing of the judiciary which will overturn all of the work of future administrations. And while I think it's a given the Democrats will get 4 or even 8 years in the White House, I think it a stretch that they'll have a super-majority in the Senate all that time in addition to control of the House to actually get stuff done.
 
That's fair. It's a very subjective judgment... and especially since he never actually stops trolling... its tough to really say that anyone outdoes him. I still think that of all the people that have tried to actually troll him back, she been one of the folks who have gone after him the hardest...

But most importantly, I don't think that trolling-fights with Trump is going to get her or anyone that matter to an election victory. I don't know for sure what the winning formula is, but I'm pretty sure trading name-calling with Trump on twitter isn't it.

I dont think that trump is trolling. To troll you have to be aware of it. He seems to act like that automatically. A bit like a small kid which acts like a clown so as to have the bullies leave him alone, then the bullies leave at some point but by then this behavior no longer is associated with a specific defense and thus becomes the norm. Tldr, he is a clown, not a troll.
 
I don't know if I think she will win the primaries and I don't know I'd support her over someone else either. I just happen to think she has the right temperament for the moment. But hey, 2020 will be a different moment and maybe she won't be right for that time.

Warren says she is a capitalist to her bones, or whatever her phrase was. I will support her in the general should she win the nomination but I'll continue to support candidates who call themselves socialists in the primary. If the gods furnish me with a non-Bernie candidate who meets that criterion I shall be very grateful.
 
Warren says she is a capitalist to her bones, or whatever her phrase was. I will support her in the general should she win the nomination but I'll continue to support candidates who call themselves socialists in the primary. If the gods furnish me with a non-Bernie candidate who meets that criterion I shall be very grateful.

Personally I feel conflicted about figures like Bernie and AOC. While I think that both figures are privately far more socialist than they let on, the policies they are advocating for are not actually socialist but are, rather bog-standard Social Democratic positions. While it is undeniably good to have public figures openly criticizing the conservative neoliberal policies of the Democrats and Republicans, trying to push the Democrats back into the Social Democratic ideology they embodied in the 30s, 40s, 50s, and 60s, demonstrating that the American populace is far more open to leftist policies than the prevailing political wisdom of the past 40 years would have us to believe, and generally shifting the Overton Window back leftwards, the fates of the US, Sweden, France, and the UK have shown quite clearly that Social Democracy doesn't work - it is a tenuous position, one always imperiled by Capitalists in whose self-interest it is to undermine it at every turn, and all it takes is one particularly convincing demagogue to capture the popular interest and in the course of one political term in office erase decades of hardfought labor victories. Social Democracy is not socialism because it seeks to reform capitalism rather than destroy it, and equating the terms undermines the very struggle at the heart of Socialism's ideology.

Having genuine leftist politicians with real clout existing in the American political arena and within the American popular consciousness is undeniably a good thing. But I would much rather see actual socialists who both own the term AND the political agenda. Sanders and AOC are preferable to Neoliberal Democrats, who are themselves preferable to ANY Republicans, but none of are genuinely great candidates to me.
 
Social democracy is socialism, but I agree the midcentury version didn't go far enough and that AOC and Bernie don't go far enough.
 
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