Did Kerry deserve his medals?

[IglooDame]

Echoing Ace, well done Padma. I was a US Navy officer from '91 to '98 and can entirely agree with everything you (and Ace) have stated.

Calling Kerry a "war hero" really makes me

The thing I do give Kerry credit for is actually going to VietNam and getting shot at as opposed to going into a National Guard unit that would never get deployed overseas.

 

[Phasmida]

The funny thing is that Bush can find no credible witness to even prove he was in the Alabama guard!

However, I think that it is perfectly fine to critique Kerry's war service and not Bush's. The reason being that Kerry is making a GIGANTIC deal out of his war service, and Bush isn't making a big deal about the horrors of Alabama.

Maybe Bush should try for a purple heart, I mean he probably got a self inflicted splinter or stubbed toe or something in Alabama, so he could nominate himself for the purple heart and file all the paperwork now.

 

[El Justo]

@ace & padma
thank you for those excellent and enlightening posts!

 

[RedFusion]

Maybe Bush should try for a purple heart, I mean he probably got a self inflicted splinter or stubbed toe or something in Alabama, so he could nominate himself for the purple heart and file all the paperwork now.

Being a "War President" Bush applied for a purple heart after choking on a pretzel claiming self-inflicted wound while battling the terrorists.

 

[ComradeDavo]

I think this thread is a prime example of how america is a divided nation.

All the democrats take Kerry's side, all the republicans are anti-kerry, and the rest of us look on with besument as to why you get so worked up about it!!

 

[dgfred]

I think this thread is a prime example of how america is a divided nation.

All the democrats take Kerry's side, all the republicans are anti-kerry, and the rest of us look on with besument as to why you get so worked up about it!!

We are for sure divided . This is one topic that I have seen actually changing some people's mind about who they would vote for. So it
is an important topic to many.

 

[Padma]

ComradeDavo: Just for the record, I'm a registered Democrat.

And Kerry still makes me sick to my stomach.

 

[CurtSibling]

Did Kerry deserve his medals?

Is this how far down the pole the anti-Demoncrats have slipped now?

Did Eisenhower deserve his medals?
Did Grant deserve his medals?
Did Washington deserve his medals?

Sometimes I think Americans have to get things in perspective a little.

 

[El Justo]

Is this how far down the pole the anti-Demoncrats have slipped now?

Did Eisenhower deserve his medals?
Did Grant deserve his medals?
Did Washington deserve his medals?

Sometimes I think Americans have to get things in perspective a little.

of course they did. they were all highly decorated generals.

it boils down to a matter of credibilty. are his accounts of his actions correct? was his move purely a self-serving one (he wrote his own medal recomendation)?

these are the things that americans (not just the anti kerry peeps) want to know.

 

[Atlas14]

Sometimes I think Americans have to get things in perspective a little.

Kerry put things into perspective for us when he made is own 'war-video' in Vietnam. He staged the battles on the video and made it in hopes that it would help his future in politics. His phony video speaks for itself.

 

[dgfred]

ComradeDavo: Just for the record, I'm a registered Democrat.

And Kerry still makes me sick to my stomach.

Music to my ears! [dance]

 

[Phasmida]

Is this how far down the pole the anti-Demoncrats have slipped now?

Did Eisenhower deserve his medals?
Did Grant deserve his medals?
Did Washington deserve his medals?

Sometimes I think Americans have to get things in perspective a little.

If I ran for president of CFC and proclaimed "vote for me because I was nominated and won poster of the year 3 years running" then you find out that I nominated myself for poster of the year, filed all of my own official documents for poster of the year, wasn't even a member of CFC one of the years, etc. etc....

You would most certainly be interested, and justifiably so! It is perfectly logical to investigate Kerry's war service because just about the only reason he is giving people to vote for him is "because I'm a war hero!" If not that, what should I consider in my vote for Kerry? His senate record ?? What he "promises" to do? I can't even figure out what he promises to do! I read about Kerry's "Plan for America" and it is basically "make it better!". That isn't a plan, it's a goal.

If someone says "vote for me because I have and will continue to fight for welfare reform" and you find out that he has done next to nothing about welfare reform in the past, you probably shouldn't vote for him. Same with Kerry.

I imagine if the rolls were reversed, and all of this controversy were over a republican canidate, there would be many pages about the vast right wing conspiracy that is America.

 

[GrandAdmiral]

Everyone I have met that went to Nam has medals and they all tell these stories that seem to change over time. They tend to forget the details and dates and stuff like that. I doubt anyone knew he would run for president back then so i doubt there is conspriracy to award him medals for no reason.

 

[alamo]

... It may be accurate from his perspecive, but it certainly differs from the recollections of the other commanders involved.

May I humbly suggest that you read the account from Lt William Rood, who WAS in commmand of PCF-23. He is the only other officer who was there still alive.

You can find the full story at chicagotribune.com (registration required). Rood is an editor at that paper now.

Many other papers carried some edit of this story on 8/22.

The first paragraph:

Kerry's critics, armed with stories I know to be untrue, have charged that the accounts of what happened were overblown. The critics have taken pains to say they're not trying to cast doubts on the merit of what others did, but their version of events has splashed doubt on all of us. It's gotten harder for those of us who were there to listen to accounts we know to be untrue, especially when they come from people who were not there.

Rood goes on to lay out the details of the events and address the inaccuracies and misrepresentations that have been publicized recently.

 

[FriendlyFire]

The plot get deeper

Kerry camp emboldened as Bush lawyer quits
August 27, 2004

Democrats have mounted an offensive over John Kerry's Vietnam War service, pouncing on the resignation of a top Republican campaign lawyer as evidence that President George Bush was behind a controversial ad campaign by anti-Kerry veterans.

Bush campaign officials dismissed the attacks as hypocritical and said their former chief outside counsel, Benjamin Ginsberg, had done nothing wrong by providing legal advice to the anti-Kerry group. Mr Ginsberg resigned from the campaign on Wednesday, saying his dual role had become a "distraction".

Still, the disclosure that a senior campaign official had aided the veterans' group put the Bush camp on the defensive and emboldened adversaries to stoke a controversy they had sought to ignore.

Senator Kerry put up a new TV ad on the issue and dispatched two fellow Vietnam War veterans to the Bush ranch in Texas in a made-for-TV attempt to hand a letter of complaint to Mr Bush.

The messengers were selected for emotional impact: Max Cleland, a former senator who lost three limbs in Vietnam, and Jim Rassman, who credits Senator Kerry with saving his life by plucking him from a Vietnamese river under enemy fire in 1969.

Unable to reach Mr Bush, they headed straight for the cameras, where Mr Cleland denounced the him as a serial slanderer of Vietnam War veterans.

He recalled the Republican advertising campaign that helped end his Senate career in 2002 as well as attacks by Bush surrogates on Senator John McCain during the 2000 Republican primary in South Carolina.

"The question is, where is George Bush's honour? Where is his shame?" Mr Cleland said. "[He] has gone after three Vietnam veterans in four years."

Mr Cleland noted Mr Bush's lack of service in Vietnam and repeated the central demand of the letter, which was signed by nine Democratic senators who had served in the armed forces: that Mr Bush explicitly condemn a TV spot by anti-Kerry veterans suggesting the senator did not deserve his Vietnam combat medals.

"We're asking George Bush today to put up or shut up," said Mr Cleland, who was defeated for re-election after Republican campaign ads questioned his commitment to national security because he voted against a Republican version of the bill establishing a Department of Homeland Security.

Until the disclosure of Mr Ginsberg's work for the anti-Kerry group, Democratic charges of collusion between it and the Bush campaign had rested on connections with relatively low-level Republican activists.

However, Mr Ginsberg is a prominent Republican election-law lawyer. He served as Mr Bush's campaign counsel in 2000 and played an important role in the battle over the Florida recount that decided the presidency.

Bush officials denied knowing of Mr Ginsberg's work for the anti-Kerry veterans until this week.

A judge on Wednesday denied anti-Bush protesters permission to rally in Central Park on the eve of the Republican convention, leaving open the question of where possibly hundreds of thousands of demonstrators will go after a march through Manhattan.

Justice Jacqueline Silbermann in the New York Supreme Court sided with city officials, who say they fear grass would be damaged and security could not be ensured.

Newsday, The New York Times, Reuters

looks like smoke and mirrors from both sides

 

[Ovulator]

Although this is kind of off topic, I hope no one votes based on the fact that Kerry didn't earn his medals and conversly I hope no one votes for Kerry just because he has medals. Thats a dumb reason to vote for a leader. Bush and Kerry are both lousy and neither deserve to be president.

 

[Ben E Gas]

Does Kerry deserve his medals?

We won't know until he releases all his records. He shouldn't claim something without backing it up. Had he never brought it up in the first place, I wouldn't have even thought of it as an issue. But he wants to use his vietnam record to win the election, fine, then give me the proof. What? you won't release your records, then you're a liar and shouldn't be using that to get yourself elected president.

 

[gonzo_for_civ]

Ben I agree, whether he earned the medals or not wouldn't be questioned if he wasn't basing his whole campaign on it.

Personally, I think he did deserve them. Sure there's a chance a mistake was made somewhere along the line and sure he could've still gone back to vietnam after the three purple hearts but I wont blame him for that.

Of course I wouldn't vote for him if he won 3 gold stars and a CMOH but that's because I think he's a lying sack of crud and a poor excuse for a presidential candidate, not because of his military service.

 

[CurtSibling]

Kerry put things into perspective for us when he made is own 'war-video' in Vietnam. He staged the battles on the video and made it in hopes that it would help his future in politics. His phony video speaks for itself.

And I guess Mr Bush has made no self-endorsing books or videos in his time?

Please!

 

[CurtSibling]

If I ran for president of CFC and proclaimed "vote for me because I was nominated and won poster of the year 3 years running" then you find out that I nominated myself for poster of the year, filed all of my own official documents for poster of the year, wasn't even a member of CFC one of the years, etc. etc....

You would most certainly be interested, and justifiably so! It is perfectly logical to investigate Kerry's war service because just about the only reason he is giving people to vote for him is "because I'm a war hero!" If not that, what should I consider in my vote for Kerry? His senate record ?? What he "promises" to do? I can't even figure out what he promises to do! I read about Kerry's "Plan for America" and it is basically "make it better!". That isn't a plan, it's a goal.

If someone says "vote for me because I have and will continue to fight for welfare reform" and you find out that he has done next to nothing about welfare reform in the past, you probably shouldn't vote for him. Same with Kerry.

I imagine if the rolls were reversed, and all of this controversy were over a republican canidate, there would be many pages about the vast right wing conspiracy that is America.

Don't drag me into the Kerry-liking stereotype please.

The childish nature of American politics never fails to crack me up.
Factions of sheep bleating for their own sharp-suited conman, while both parties just blackmail the USA.

And for your reference, I do not have to imagine any roles reversed.
I see both dubious major parties in the USA to be swollen with waffle and hypocrisy.