Discussion on Potential NES and IOT Forum Merger

[EQandcivfanatic]

@luckymoose: see below

Forum merging would not result in a loss of old threads - they'd likely end up mixed between both forums though (there would be ways to keeping them sort of separate though).

 

[hoplitejoe]

I'm not sure if Luckymoose will be able to deal with mixed forums without some tears, think of all those internet games being dirtied sitting next to other similar games :'(


Moderator Action: Refrain thee please, from snark and trolling
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[leif erikson]

Moderator Action: Please return to the subject of the thread. This thread is being derailed.

 

[Double A]

Not all of my posts are in NES, genius.

My statement was fairly neutral, as is this one.

Regardless, the hostile community of remaining IOTers is going to turn off any veteran NESer returning when this is set low, as would IOTs being the dominate threads in what was the NES forum,

Then you should totally report the people being hostile so we can continue to have this enlightening discussion.

now renamed to whatever these kids think is a brilliant name but isn't

Pretty sure you know I'm an intolerable smartass by now. Were you actually taking me seriously?

Are you aware that not every government is an empire and not every game is political?

what

This, I don't care so much for. There aren't enough NESers left behind, as I said, to make the subforum even remotely NESlike.

Can someone do a statistical analysis of NESers pre-exodus, current population on both here and Frontier, and dual citizenship before I actually answer this?

I do have a stake in it, and I wished you people from the IOT subforum would stop running these threads as if you're in charge. You aren't.

BSmith started the thread after he saw us discussing the subject with EQ, and strongarming a forum populace would be incredibly impressive given the great distances involved that I don't think the resistance would even know what to do.

But yeah aside from the second-last thing I quoted, do you have any more counter-arguments?

 

[NinjaCow64]

On subject, NES-IOT would be the best name because we aren't going to find a name that has a catchy acronym that actually describes the subforum so why even bother?

Also guys don't get too angry as the OP of the last of these threads I have seen what happens so please don't get too angry.

 

[hoplitejoe]

On subject, NES-IOT would be the best name because we aren't going to find a name that has a catchy acronym that actually describes the subforum so why even bother?

Because it is worse than the majority of suggestions.

 

[spryllino]

I maintain that any attempt to produce a consensus with things as they are, can inherently only produce a false consensus and one largely dominated by IOTers. I also continue to fail to see why IOTers are so very eager to make a merge happen when the opinion of the NESing community as a whole - which still exists as a thing, and includes everyone who has gone or mostly gone - has never been in favour of it. It's not really reasonable, IOTers, to treat this as a goal to be got, if necessary, by opportunism, when a fair proportion of the stakeholders are out of the room: it should be a thing only done if positively desired and actively wanted by both communities, which it really isn't, or at least can't be shown to be. If it's remotely contentious, which it is, and if doing it would involve flouting the wishes of numerous people who have been or are involved, it shouldn't be done.

Therefore it should be left, and anyone who opportunistically tries to push for it with things as they are is acting thoroughly unfairly and unreasonably. This debate should halt, and happen again in a few months, if it must, when it can happen sensibly, without raising unduly high spirits and creating antagonisms, when people who are banned can, if they wish, participate, and when people who may not be sure whether they have left permanently or not will have had time to work out what they are doing.

Before that, I reiterate, any impression of opinion produced is false, and anyone who pushes for a merger is, intentionally or unintentionally, being opportunistic and unfair.

 

[awesome]

I have a stake in this forum. 17,000 posts are stored here. I don't want them removed because the mods dislike our community. You can whine all you want, but my voice matters.

look, man, i may not know you too well, but from reading things that you've said, you seem like a pretty cool guy (and i don't mean this in the poking fun at and "who doesn't afraid of anything" kind of way, either), but, from what you've been saying lately here and on that other site, it looks like you're the one doing most of the whining. call it being verbose or opinionated or whatever you want to call it, but that's just how it comes across.

On subject, NES-IOT would be the best name because we aren't going to find a name that has a catchy acronym that actually describes the subforum so why even bother?

Also guys don't get too angry as the OP of the last of these threads I have seen what happens so please don't get too angry.

that's a terrible name, though. it seems like a simple option (i mean, you're merging two forums and i guess that it makes sense to just combine their names at face value), but it's not catchy and it just looks like random letters thrown together to anybody who doesn't already know what they are. when i first saw the names, i thought that imperium offtopicum was just another off topic forum and that never ending stories was bastion and atreyu fanfiction. world building games is actually descriptive.

If it's remotely contentious, which it is, and if doing it would involve flouting the wishes of numerous people who have been or are involved, it shouldn't be done.

this is probably the best point in the entire thread, though.

 

[Ailedhoo]

I maintain that any attempt to produce a consensus with things as they are, can inherently only produce a false consensus and one largely dominated by IOTers. I also continue to fail to see why IOTers are so very eager to make a merge happen when the opinion of the NESing community as a whole - which still exists as a thing, and includes everyone who has gone or mostly gone - has never been in favour of it. It's not really reasonable, IOTers, to treat this as a goal to be got, if necessary, by opportunism, when a fair proportion of the stakeholders are out of the room: it should be a thing only done if positively desired and actively wanted by both communities, which it really isn't, or at least can't be shown to be. If it's remotely contentious, which it is, and if doing it would involve flouting the wishes of numerous people who have been or are involved, it shouldn't be done.

Therefore it should be left, and anyone who opportunistically tries to push for it with things as they are is acting thoroughly unfairly and unreasonably. This debate should halt, and happen again in a few months, if it must, when it can happen sensibly, without raising unduly high spirits and creating antagonisms, when people who are banned can, if they wish, participate, and when people who may not be sure whether they have left permanently or not will have had time to work out what they are doing.

Before that, I reiterate, any impression of opinion produced is false, and anyone who pushes for a merger is, intentionally or unintentionally, being opportunistic and unfair.

I think leaving it a few mouths may be too long; a week maybe as a means of cooling things down but a mouth would not too patient.

We have had NESers in support of the merge and with the migration it will require a poll to determine the true extent of NESer stance towards the issue. This debate should not be halted, because recent events have opened the doors to possibility. It is not unfair to take the opportunity to make a case after a occurrence which has shifted the populations. Hence, under civil arrangement, we should at least debate the issue at hand for the benefit of us all; even if the merge does not occur the act of debating can help improve the relations between NESers and IOTers, by allowing the sharing of minds.

Still: should we consider a poll sooner or later to gather data on opinions towards any merger? It may provide its uses. We could even conduct as a referendum on the matter.

 

[Double A]

On subject, NES-IOT would be the best name because we aren't going to find a name that has a catchy acronym that actually describes the subforum so why even bother?

Also guys don't get too angry as the OP of the last of these threads I have seen what happens so please don't get too angry.

I actually kind of like WBG.

I maintain that any attempt to produce a consensus with things as they are, can inherently only produce a false consensus and one largely dominated by IOTers. I also continue to fail to see why IOTers are so very eager to make a merge happen when the opinion of the NESing community as a whole - which still exists as a thing, and includes everyone who has gone or mostly gone - has never been in favour of it. It's not really reasonable, IOTers, to treat this as a goal to be got, if necessary, by opportunism, when a fair proportion of the stakeholders are out of the room: it should be a thing only done if positively desired and actively wanted by both communities, which it really isn't, or at least can't be shown to be. If it's remotely contentious, which it is, and if doing it would involve flouting the wishes of numerous people who have been or are involved, it shouldn't be done.

Therefore it should be left, and anyone who opportunistically tries to push for it with things as they are is acting thoroughly unfairly and unreasonably. This debate should halt, and happen again in a few months, if it must, when it can happen sensibly, without raising unduly high spirits and creating antagonisms, when people who are banned can, if they wish, participate, and when people who may not be sure whether they have left permanently or not will have had time to work out what they are doing.

Before that, I reiterate, any impression of opinion produced is false, and anyone who pushes for a merger is, intentionally or unintentionally, being opportunistic and unfair.

The camaraderie of dealing with certain people is totally bringing us together. Let's make smores.

But yeah I don't actually get the excitement. It does look like more IOTers (including myself) are going to be joining more NESes, and I know a lot of NESers are joining Sone's game on Frontier, so there's that. It's just a thing that's happening, not really a big deal.

 

[spryllino]

Ailedhoo: Yes, but we're not after the event yet, nor will we be for at least a few weeks; nor can there be any reasonable objection, if there is likely to be agreement on the issue, to that debate happening in a few months rather than now. If the debate is going to have to be had again under a different situation, what is the earthly point of us all posting twice, or arguing continually for months? There is no need whatsoever for a hurry, unless you are trying to exclude people; if you're not trying to exclude people from the debate, then just wait. Impatience never got anyone anywhere.

Anyway, the lack of positive enthusiasm for a merger from any NESers, except about three or four, strikes me as a serious reason not to do it at this particular moment.

 

[Ailedhoo]

Ailedhoo: Yes, but we're not after the event yet, nor will we be for at least a few weeks; nor can there be any reasonable objection, if there is likely to be agreement on the issue, to that debate happening in a few months rather than now. If the debate is going to have to be had again under a different situation, what is the earthly point of us all posting twice, or arguing continually for months? There is no need whatsoever for a hurry, unless you are trying to exclude people; if you're not trying to exclude people from the debate, then just wait. Impatience never got anyone anywhere.

Anyway, the lack of positive enthusiasm for a merger from any NESers, except about three or four, strikes me as a serious reason not to do it at this particular moment.

How many mouths? Too many may lead us to forget to deal with this talk, which in turn may make things logistically more difficult. Weeks would be more reasonable as a time scale. What we must also avoid is to forget.

We will need to count the NESers in support and against; we need to evaluate the remaining NESers' on CFC stance on the issue at hand. However this should be done through the debate, be it a side thread poll or whatever tool should be set up.

The deployment of this thread is to include all in the issue of the future of NES and IOT. People are not doing debating now as a means of exclusion; we are in debate because debate has emerged. Still I would be hopeful of any poll threads set up for the benefit of recording attitudes towards a possible merge, though we would have to decide a date for the referendum to begin; perhaps a hard lined date might be a better option? Admittedly if there is a fear of exclusion then we should consider it and find means of ensuring inclusion. A hard lined date of referendum would enshrine this consideration.

What ever the case I agree we must be as inclusive as possible, though the debate must go on as a means of consideration. I suggest we encourage peoples to take part in the discussions; for now we can at least consider the planning consideration as a means of the manifesto of the referendum.

 

[EQandcivfanatic]

Well let's presume the following:

1. The Communities are merged into one, and all threads from olden days dating all the way back to 2002 are preserved.

2. No posts are deleted, all side threads stay intact.

3. The combined forum is renamed World Building Games, but otherwise stays where both subforums are now.


Based on this scenario, I just would like to suggest we state what our perceived "pros" and "cons" would be to the new status quo. For those of us for the integration, what would make the new community better? For those of us against, what would make it worse? Let's handle this in a rational and logical manner.

 

[NinjaCow64]

Yeah, actually I'm feeling against this. I won't elaborate why other than I feel that this is going to cause more drama (of the unfun kind) than it will bring benefits.

 

[Luckymoose]

If you're pushing for a merger based on not agreeing with the people who left, you've lost. You're not going to gain them back by using them as a means to change the way things are, especially when a few of them are still banned or have yet to react. We have some NESers who only recently came back from vacation and had no idea what was going on. They, of course, mostly sided with those who left.

From what I understand, the IOT community left behind has actively tried to merge so they can assume control of the NES subforum. If you forget in a few weeks, obviously the issue wasn't a big deal. I fully support Spry in delaying such a vote or move, and I think most NESers would agree. For all those people who are new to NESing, or barely participated, you shouldn't rush to make such a decision that affects the entire community, both exiled and not.

 

[North King]

Why not just "World-Building", since everyone seems to be emphasizing how important the story is rather than the mechanics of the "games.

Also, I concur that we should see how this grand experiment is going to turn out. I have hardly abandoned my CFC netizenship, and even if I harbor serious doubts about the forums as a whole, there's a non-zero chance of return.

 

[Lefty Scaevola]

What benefits might be expected from a merger?

 

[Luckymoose]

What benefits might be expected from a merger?

Mods can infract a ton of people when the infighting starts?

 

[Lefty Scaevola]

So, if the average weight is 167 Lbs, I get to infract 12 of them when the bile erupts?

 

[J.K. Stockholme]

I maintain that any attempt to produce a consensus with things as they are, can inherently only produce a false consensus and one largely dominated by IOTers. I also continue to fail to see why IOTers are so very eager to make a merge happen when the opinion of the NESing community as a whole - which still exists as a thing, and includes everyone who has gone or mostly gone - has never been in favour of it. It's not really reasonable, IOTers, to treat this as a goal to be got, if necessary, by opportunism, when a fair proportion of the stakeholders are out of the room: it should be a thing only done if positively desired and actively wanted by both communities, which it really isn't, or at least can't be shown to be. If it's remotely contentious, which it is, and if doing it would involve flouting the wishes of numerous people who have been or are involved, it shouldn't be done.

Therefore it should be left, and anyone who opportunistically tries to push for it with things as they are is acting thoroughly unfairly and unreasonably. This debate should halt, and happen again in a few months, if it must, when it can happen sensibly, without raising unduly high spirits and creating antagonisms, when people who are banned can, if they wish, participate, and when people who may not be sure whether they have left permanently or not will have had time to work out what they are doing.

Before that, I reiterate, any impression of opinion produced is false, and anyone who pushes for a merger is, intentionally or unintentionally, being opportunistic and unfair.

I am strongly in agreement with Spry that any serious deliberations on NES-IOT merging must be postponed until a few months time, as per the democratic principle of inclusion. Not only are several NESers unable to participate at all at present, but many have shifted their focus to the Frontier and may not be sufficiently aware of this present discussion.

That said, non-binding and preparatory consideration of the subject isn't totally unfair, but people shouldn't be trying to build consensus or campaign until we can achieve maximum inclusion of all potential participants.

There ain't many NESers left to object to it. I'm surprised the mods haven't deleted the old threads to make the purge complete. The moment they throw in the thousand threads from IOT into the NES forum, years of NESing will be pushed so far to the back that it won't matter. All newcomers will see IOT, not NES, so you might as well call it that. The NESers who remain behind are more than happy to call IOT and NES the same thing, so they should be just as happy to lose the name NES and go with IOT, since more IOTers remain than NESers?

So long as the old threads aren't tampered with, I don't care either way. I'm not wasting my time with it.

NESers who are playing at the Frontier deserve equal participation with those who are focusing their creative attention in CFC NES. You, just as much as I, or anyone else who has participated in NES or IOT within like, the past half-decade, should be allowed and positively encouraged to opine their preferred course of action and voice their reasons.