Discussion on Potential NES and IOT Forum Merger

[Thlayli]

NESers by an large don't need a forum merge - yet.

Most NESers I have spoken to would prefer an additional, community-sourced moderator and relaxation of the PDMA rules so that the persistent feeling of estrangement with the moderators can be reduced.

These are higher priority issues than a forum merge.

 

[Double A]

These are higher priority issues than a forum merge.

Actually yeah let's keep focus on that.

 

[Tee Kay]

Agreed broadly with Thlayli

 

[filli_noctus]

What benefits might be expected from a merger?

As a casual player of games in both forums (in the interests of full disclosure I have played i more IOTs than NESes) who has been following the discussion on this matter the benefits as I see them are greater cross pollination of ideas for the games, increased player and mod base* and if the exodus to the Frontier becomes permanent it may be the only way to prevent NESing from withering.

The primary disadvantage is likely to be the inevitable culture clash. It's hard to say just how bad it will be as the fact some people play in both will mitigate it somewhat but there are certain posters who are dead set against it and have an irrational dislike for the forum they don't participate in which will exacerbate it. Needless to say those posters will almost certainly leave permanently in the event of a merge which should be considered a disadvantage as some are highly regarded in their forum of choice.

A major consideration as to whether or not a merge should be done is how successful/permanent the Frontier becomes. Past experience from IOT (the so-called Taniforum and the General Strike incident) would indicate that everyone will return to CFC with a couple of weeks, two months at the outside. If after that period the Frontier is still going strong and a significant number of people are posting more or less exclusively on that forum it would be worth considering a merge.

Last time this came up I suggested the use of inter-forum links similar to the links to NES in the various Civ S&T forums as a means to bring IOT and NES closer even if it doesn't end in a merger. I still think that's worth pursuing.

*It has been suggested that NES has a shortage of players whilst IOT has a shortage of mods - I don't think that's entirely accurate but a quick eyeball of the forums does seem to indicate that NES has more games with fewer players whilst IOT has less games with more players which could easily be put down to cultural differences.

 

[spryllino]

How many mouths? Too many may lead us to forget to deal with this talk, which in turn may make things logistically more difficult. Weeks would be more reasonable as a time scale. What we must also avoid is to forget.

We will need to count the NESers in support and against; we need to evaluate the remaining NESers' on CFC stance on the issue at hand. However this should be done through the debate, be it a side thread poll or whatever tool should be set up.

The deployment of this thread is to include all in the issue of the future of NES and IOT. People are not doing debating now as a means of exclusion; we are in debate because debate has emerged. Still I would be hopeful of any poll threads set up for the benefit of recording attitudes towards a possible merge, though we would have to decide a date for the referendum to begin; perhaps a hard lined date might be a better option? Admittedly if there is a fear of exclusion then we should consider it and find means of ensuring inclusion. A hard lined date of referendum would enshrine this consideration.

What ever the case I agree we must be as inclusive as possible, though the debate must go on as a means of consideration. I suggest we encourage peoples to take part in the discussions; for now we can at least consider the planning consideration as a means of the manifesto of the referendum.

Well, what a load of waffle. It's patently ridiculous to say that we must deal with it now because otherwise we might forget; you IOTers insist on bringing it up every two seconds anyway, and any one of you can bring it up whenever you like.
Moderator Action: Less hostility is required

Why exactly is there any urgency in this?

NESers by an large don't need a forum merge - yet.

Most NESers I have spoken to would prefer an additional, community-sourced moderator and relaxation of the PDMA rules so that the persistent feeling of estrangement with the moderators can be reduced.

These are higher priority issues than a forum merge.

Exactly - quoted for truth. It's really essential that a NES moderator should be a NESer, and one respected by the community, and that something should be done to make it easier for NESers to interact, sometimes hostilely, without invoking official wrath. I think, chiefly, the flaming rules in WWW ought to be relaxed, and that there ought to be a prompt and fully reported infraction appeals process. Ideally we should be able to determine our own inclusivity rules too.

 

[JohannaK]

I am for this, though I don't think this is the right moment either. In any case I seem to understand that you basically want to run NES like a forum of its own except still within CFC.

 

[Ailedhoo]

A major consideration as to whether or not a merge should be done is how successful/permanent the Frontier becomes. Past experience from IOT (the so-called Taniforum and the General Strike incident) would indicate that everyone will return to CFC with a couple of weeks, two months at the outside. If after that period the Frontier is still going strong and a significant number of people are posting more or less exclusively on that forum it would be worth considering a merge.

Last time this came up I suggested the use of inter-forum links similar to the links to NES in the various Civ S&T forums as a means to bring IOT and NES closer even if it doesn't end in a merger. I still think that's worth pursuing.

*It has been suggested that NES has a shortage of players whilst IOT has a shortage of mods - I don't think that's entirely accurate but a quick eyeball of the forums does seem to indicate that NES has more games with fewer players whilst IOT has less games with more players which could easily be put down to cultural differences.

On the Taniboard comparison I think Frontier might have better potential in success than Taniboard. Still I guess we need to set a date beyond this week or the next just in case. I guess there is a risk of declaring a premature conclusion on the fate of the venture to the Frontier, especially regarding the potential PDMA reforms that have recently been bought up and could result in returning NESers, though I do not think the CFCer colony in the Frontier would be abandoned as it gives potential to spread NES and IOT outside of CFC. Whatever the case the cooling down consideration may have its benefits to any merge as it would allow reflection and whatever the case the Single Thread Games section of the Frontier does open a possibility lightness in a merging. Still best to observe.

Well, what a load of waffle.

Excuse me?

It's patently ridiculous to say that we must deal with it now because otherwise we might forget; you IOTers insist on bringing it up every two seconds anyway, and any one of you can bring it up whenever you like.

"You IOTers?" The "us vs them" attitude of this "forum nationalism" is quite frankly why I support the merge so we ensure a prosperity of fun as oppose to a pointless "us vs them."

Relating back to your "waffle" comment: what is your reaction to my comments on a CFC poll to count the NESers in favour or against merging? The suggestion for a referendum? The thoughts for a date on said referenda? The continuation of the debate for the benefit of this forum?

Why exactly is there any urgency in this?

Because a high number of NESers have supposedly migrated to the Frontier; there are dual citizens but the issue has raised considerations for possibility. As noted this may alter in the cause of a cooling down period but it will depend upon more the relations regarding the PDMA thread and (of course) how the Frontier is in comparison to CFCer for when the migrants decide to begin conclusion their exodus, be it a return from exile, settlement or both.

We should be able to debate the issue at the moment however. To deny planning at the least would make any future efforts rushed in themselves. This thread was after all deployed not by a simple forum member but a mod in reaction to emerging talks. We have to talk.

Exactly - quoted for truth. It's really essential that a NES moderator should be a NESer, and one respected by the community, and that something should be done to make it easier for NESers to interact, sometimes hostilely, without invoking official wrath. I think, chiefly, the flaming rules in WWW ought to be relaxed, and that there ought to be a prompt and fully reported infraction appeals process. Ideally we should be able to determine our own inclusivity rules too.

On a NESer being a mod for NES; such action require similar application for all other sub-forums of CFC perhaps?

The appeal forum being suggested in the PDMA thread may allow all CFCers to make appeal. This will be most beneficial indeed. As for other interactions that would have to be continued to be debated in the PDMA thread but I think the appeal forum would be a good enough step.

The inclusive self determination would likely be off the table due to CFC inclusive policy. If NES got its own inclusive rules then why not all the other forums for the matter? Because it would forge single party clubs that may keep newcomers and dissenters out. BSmith1068's rules on being inclusive are a benefit for community, as be Birdjaguar's guidelines and rules deployed for IOT. If they are to be reformed then they must maintain the most important aspect of the inclusive nature, at the expense of the exclusive.

I am for this, though I don't think this is the right moment either. In any case I seem to understand that you basically want to run NES like a forum of its own except still within CFC.

Alas it may be best to set a date for a more critical time to organise; a few weeks should determine the destiny within the Frontier at the least. Whatever the case the merge will require a referendum to enforce, to ensure that we are in consideration towards. Hence a campaign date will eventually need to be arranged.

 

[hoplitejoe]

I still thing now is a fine time, this isn't the sort of thing that needs to wait till NES is on its knees dying. If anything it would be better while both forums are strong, and the modship issue might also be easier to discuss in a new sub-forum.

 

[Ailedhoo]

I still thing now is a fine time, this isn't the sort of thing that needs to wait till NES is on its knees dying. If anything it would be better while both forums are strong, and the modship issue might also be easier to discuss in a new sub-forum.

I guess in many ways we have to balance to avoid either acting too rash or acting too slow, though we will need to decide a date of referenda.

Whatever the case settling a merge now could begin the process of establishing a... connection of embassies of sorts between Civilization Fanatics Center and the Frontier in the forms of a sticky thread... or would it be better for such threads to be WWW/Argentina style? Any rate the Frontier itself would require a thread as a embassy for CFC. Ambassadors would of course require appointment. Even if the PDMA thing is settle on the establishment of a colony in the Frontier means that we will have to see the possibility of a new den for STG players to use a expression akin to the Frontier.

 

[EQandcivfanatic]

All right, well I disagree with every single point made by various others, but I have been convinced that a cooling off period is probably needed, despite the arguments against the merger in general being patently ridiculous and easily summarized as "not mah cultutah!". I do think though that we should not have a poll for this issue, but if a vote is needed, to have people actually post their opinion upon it for a more accurate measurement of the community.

 

[Ailedhoo]

All right, well I disagree with every single point made by various others, but I have been convinced that a cooling off period is probably needed, despite the arguments against the merger in general being patently ridiculous and easily summarized as "not mah cultutah!". I do think though that we should not have a poll for this issue, but if a vote is needed, to have people actually post their opinion upon it for a more accurate measurement of the community.

I guess we are all are getting heated up by this; once things have settled (and the exodus's fate confirmed) we could conduct Operation New Genesis if the merge is accepted as a policy. If merging is agreed upon then we may enjoy World Building Games; if not then at least our discussions over the merge may allow us to consider ways of improving NES-IOT communication, as well as bring down the "us vs them" attitudes that hinder as oppose to benefit us all.

 

[Lefty Scaevola]

the flaming rules in WWW ought to be relaxed, Ideally we should be able to determine our own inclusivity rules too.

Neither of these forum wide policies are going to be relaxed for NES, or other fora.

 

[Luckymoose]

Forum nationalism, lol. You think the best way to deal with nationalism, as you guys keep putting it, is slamming two groups together as quickly as possible? Jesus, what a bunch of malarkey. The inclusion rules are a bunch of it too, considering we had to fight to get the right to set quality standards that otherwise were being ignored or abused by people from the IOT community. Why do you think we had a big row with the moderation staff about it? We're not anti-newbies. We're against people who come in, cause disruptions because they don't like or understand our games, or conform to the quality standards set in place by the people running and participating in said games. The people who whine about being excluded are the people who can't meet the standards anyway. This ain't a democracy, the mod staff made that clear. So why should "we" treat it like one, either? Why should we allow people who are largely not part of the NESing community push through a vote, that they would win because they have larger numbers now? That's like enforcing a curfew and then holding a vote on said curfew after it goes into effect.

 

[Thlayli]

Color me suspicious about this whole endeavor.

The community that has left CFC had relayed to me very clear concerns that strong negative sentiments have been expressed in the moderator forum towards the NESing forum. This information has been provided by a CFC moderator in confidence.

That we see moderator initiated discussion about essentially liquidating the NES forum not long after this information about anti-NES sentiment among the moderator community was provided to us makes me raise an eyebrow.

There was no public drive requesting this merge, and it seems odd that BSmith would come up with it out of nowhere when many other issues of higher priority are currently being discussed. And revealing which moderator provided our community access to information on anti-NES sentiment within the moderator forum would, of course, be PDMA.

Please note that this post is following CFC forum rules and there are no legitimate grounds for it to be deleted, infracted, or censored.

 

[Civ'ed]

That we see moderator initiated discussion about essentially liquidating the NES forum not long after this information about anti-NES sentiment among the moderator community was provided to us makes me raise an eyebrow.

There was no public drive requesting this merge, and it seems odd that BSmith would come up with it out of nowhere when many other issues of higher priority are currently being discussed. And revealing which moderator provided our community access to information on anti-NES sentiment within the moderator forum would, of course, be PDMA.

We've been talking about it over in the IOT forum, BSmith merely posted a discussion thread over here.

 

[Thlayli]

There has been minimal demand for it in the NES forum however, and the last public poll on the issue returned a decisive no vote, IOTers voting in the poll notwithstanding.

 

[spryllino]

Neither of these forum wide policies are going to be relaxed for NES, or other fora.

I didn't ask whether they would be - it's fairly obvious that you would say that. I said they should be. It's the complete unwillingness of the moderation staff to discuss such things, exemplified here, that causes such confrontation with an entire community that does not wish to be moderated in such a stringent way. What is there to be gained with flatly and continually refusing, on principle, what an entire subforum (except perhaps three or four members) wants?

 

[Zack]

As an outsider to the IOT and NES communities, yet someone who's spent a lot of time in an unrelated sub-forum dedicated to two very similar forum games...

Mafia and NOTW have co-existed for years with no problems, and the name of the forum has always just been "Mafia/NOTW" (not some generic term that represents both). In the past (think 5+ years ago, before my time), the communities were largely distinct from each other and there was something of an NES/IOT dynamic between the two. NOTW players didn't really participate in mafia, and vice versa; NOTW was much more complex and involved, while mafia was pretty casual. Since then, mafia has gotten significantly more complex to the point where one of the most frequently asked questions is "what exactly is the difference between NOTW and mafia?" from people who are not quite sure what makes them distinct games; indeed, to the casual observer the differences are hard to spot. Many mafia players started to join NOTWs, and eventually many NOTW players started joining mafia games.

Now, switch around some of the names and tell me how accurate this is (I'm honestly not quite sure - like I said, I'm an outsider, so someone more knowledgeable can modify it as they see fit):

Spoiler :

IOT and NES have existed in separate forums for years with no problems, and the name of each forum has always just been "Never Ending Stories" or "Imperium Offtopicum" (not some generic term that represents both). In the past, the communities were largely distinct from each other. NES players didn't really participate in mafia, and vice versa; NES was much more complex and involved, while IOT was pretty casual. Since then, IOT has gotten significantly more complex to the point where one of the most frequently asked questions is "what exactly is the difference between NES and IOT?" from people who are not quite sure what makes them distinct games; indeed, to the casual observer the differences are hard to spot. Many IOT players started to join NES games, and eventually many NES players started joining IOT games.

Nowadays, there are still some people who only play one or the other, but for the most part the playerbase is the same. If they were separate, presumably the playerbase would be more fragmented and the populations of both would suffer. Having mafia and NOTW in the same sub-forum has worked extremely well and there have never been any problems.

That said, mafia and NOTW have always been in the same sub-forum (though the communities used to be fairly distinct from each other), whether it was the old Forum Games or the newer sub-forum. For that matter, they used to be in the same sub-forum as IOT, and I know there are a lot of IOTers who play mafia/NOTW or have in the past.

 

[Seon]

I disagree with the merger.

I honestly can't see the point of it all. It would just cause even more friction in a divided community.

 

[BSmith1068]

Color me suspicious about this whole endeavor.

The community that has left CFC had relayed to me very clear concerns that strong negative sentiments have been expressed in the moderator forum towards the NESing forum. This information has been provided by a CFC moderator in confidence.

That we see moderator initiated discussion about essentially liquidating the NES forum not long after this information about anti-NES sentiment among the moderator community was provided to us makes me raise an eyebrow.

There was no public drive requesting this merge, and it seems odd that BSmith would come up with it out of nowhere when many other issues of higher priority are currently being discussed. And revealing which moderator provided our community access to information on anti-NES sentiment within the moderator forum would, of course, be PDMA.

Please note that this post is following CFC forum rules and there are no legitimate grounds for it to be deleted, infracted, or censored.

I think it would be fair to say that there has been some negative sentiments towards specific actions that some members of the NESing community have taken over the past few weeks. I don't think it is fair to say that there have been strong negative sentiments towards the NESing forum as a whole. I would also be suspicious of taking third party information as relayed through individuals that may not have the most unbiased perspective on things. Let's not forget that faked PM and how it was perceived to be real.

I'll also say (again) that before I started this thread there had been zero discussion of merging the two sub-forums in the staff forum. Zero. It only started when I made a thread about it at the same time I posted this thread here in SF.

Regarding this thread – it was a response to a couple of things – first that there was a discussion already happening about it in the IOT Argentina thread. Since this is something that needs to be discussed by everyone in both communities, I posted about it in the new WWW thread so that discussion could be had within NES about the merits of any proposed merge. In response to a PM from a NESer, in which was pointed out the disjointed nature of the discussion across both subforums and less visibility of it overall being included in the WWW/Argentina threads, I created this single thread in Site Feedback to be a neutral place where everyone could debate the merits of it.

This thread is in no way, shape or form an effort by me or any of the staff to make any changes. It is simply a way for the already ongoing discussion to continue in a more visible and fair manner to everyone.

Furthermore I do believe that there is some merit to waiting a little while before making this decision. There is no timeline in place and certainly no pre-ordained decision by anyone on staff that this is even the right thing to do right now.