DMOC's DEITY Game #1 - Gandhi

[Gliese 581]

Base peaceweight: 4
Warmonger respect: 1
Required % of players w/tech: 40%

What do these three things mean? The others are fairly self explanatory, and I imagine these are values from an xml file, but I've never heard them actually explained. Thanks.

I'll try to explain it (but will probably get it wrong and be corrected by Dan ).
peaceweight: how much the AI favours peace/war strategies. The lower the peaceweight the more they favour war.
Warmonger respect: I think this refers to attitude bonuses toward aggressive leaders (positive number= more + mods).
the last one: How many of the known opponents must know a tech in order for them to trade it away (don't think it refers to every tech since even isolated civs trade a tech or two).

 

[oyzar]

Base peaceweight also modify the AI internal relations, over 4 different and you get one negative each further step.

 

[DMOC]

Warmonger respect is either 0, 1, or 2, with the aggressive/militaristic AI's typically getting 2 and the pacifists typically getting zero. What this does is that it modifies (hidden) attitude bonuses with 2 AI's. The actual AMOUNT that the AI's give "+" diplomatic demerits is found by taking the LOWEST OF THE TWO warmonger respects of the AI's.

Ragnar has a warmonger respect of 2 and Gandhi 0. This means they give each other NO hidden diplomatic benefits because 0 is the lowest of the two warmonger respects. If Gandhi had a warmonger respect of 1, then they would EACH give each other a hidden "+1." Ever wonder why aggressive leaders like Ragnar and Shaka seem pleased with each other in 3000 BC with no shared religion or random event?

Speaking of which, I forgot to post the highest possible attitude an AI can have and still declare war. For Stalin, it's probably Pleased unfortunately (I am PRAYING it is Cautious). I'd better go and re-check those files....

An alternative to the Hunting - Archery route is building the great wall via teching Masonry while training a worker NOW.

 

[Killroyan]

Aha, now this explains finally why sometimes people vote for another leader even if you are higher in score. In one game I was +9 with Hannibal, but he still voted for another leader with whom he just had a +6 score. Pretty annoying but this is one of the reasons then I guess.

Awaiting the next update since this is a kickass start. Pyramids and enough food =

 

[DMOC]

Aha, now this explains finally why sometimes people vote for another leader even if you are higher in score. In one game I was +9 with Hannibal, but he still voted for another leader with whom he just had a +6 score. Pretty annoying but this is one of the reasons then I guess.

Awaiting the next update since this is a kickass start. Pyramids and enough food =

I disagree about the kickass start, but agree about the Pyramids. Especially since the only Industrious leader met is also Aggressive and will probably be making units instead.

 

[Killroyan]

Care to explain what is not to like about this start? Stone, cows and a lot of hills, combined with 3 seafood and corn in your capital BFC. I know a lot of leaders who would sell their mother for these kind of starts. Ok, the rest of the land is a bit crappy but if you can settle the silver/wine/furs city next you won't have any health problems nor happy problems. Then get copper and you are set. Combine this with philo and representation and what is not to like?

 

[SnowlyWhite]

stalin: declares at pleased, high military build %, doesn't care about religion, his fav. civic. is miles away.

without shadowing, my money are on stalin kicking in bcs

 

[Sleepless]

Don't like to post when there is mainly negatives to post about.

Your in huge danger of getting boxed in. With 2 imperialistic civs they will be settling cities like crazy so grab what you can now. Copper site would be my No1 aim followed by anywhere thats left.

Still looking forward to where you go from here, I can't win on diety (not played many though), so not much else to say but good luck.

 

[DMOC]

Care to explain what is not to like about this start? Stone, cows and a lot of hills, combined with 3 seafood and corn in your capital BFC. I know a lot of leaders who would sell their mother for these kind of starts. Ok, the rest of the land is a bit crappy but if you can settle the silver/wine/furs city next you won't have any health problems nor happy problems. Then get copper and you are set. Combine this with philo and representation and what is not to like?

The capital actually isn't as good as I would like as it doesn't seem to have those high-commerce tiles I crave.

The land around me is really crappy, though. The problem is that if I settle the silver city first, Stalin wil get the copper, but if I settle the copper first, Cyrus gets the silver!

stalin: declares at pleased, high military build %, doesn't care about religion, his fav. civic. is miles away.

without shadowing, my money are on stalin kicking in bcs

Maybe Gandhi is to his south.

Don't like to post when there is mainly negatives to post about.

Your in huge danger of getting boxed in. With 2 imperialistic civs they will be settling cities like crazy so grab what you can now. Copper site would be my No1 aim followed by anywhere thats left.

Still looking forward to where you go from here, I can't win on diety (not played many though), so not much else to say but good luck.

Copper site yes, but then that means Cyrus easily gets the silver. I could get the furs, but a city with them would have almost no food.

 

[EEE_BOY]

you will soon be overwhelmed by barb, and yet u don't even have any denfensive force established. sorry to say that you might need to restart. spiritual and philosophy are both strong in mid game, (that means suck in early game, if u can't survive in the early, there is no mid game to play). try some leaders with early UU and stong early trait (creative), eg. Hatshepsut, Pericles.

or at least,for this game, keeping copper in the first is absolutely must. and connect to it ASAP!

 

[Quotey]

Maybe Gandhi is to his south.

Gandhi is to his North

 

[Dirk1302]

Is there any action going on here? Deity is a challenge of course but some progress here would be welcome. Situation is fairly difficult btw.

 

[Unconquered Sun]

Tough map...if you make the wrong decision now, it's game over.

The traditional approach calls for settling the bronze and as many other cities as possible.

In my opinion tho, the bronze is too far...you'll have to invest heavily in protecting the settler/city, mining the bronze, routing it (whether via road or sailing), paying distance upkeep, only to see Stalin place a city in between.

However, bronze is just a mean to an end...what end? Rushing? Protecting v barbarians? Protecting v the AIs? Fighting medieval with maces?

You don't need bronze for barbs, archers + fogbusting + nice imperialistic neighbors will do.

Axes won't stop 10+ city deity from destroying your tiny empire in the late BCs.

Fighting medieval on this map...meh.

Rushing is possible if you convert all of your forests into axes, after researching at least writing or pottery. It's going to be costly tho, no wonders, no economy for a long time, and very hard battles v aggressive or imperialistic/charismatic/excellent UU neighbors.

So, back to the means and ends, what do you really need to win?

Technology advantage and production capacity.

One very, very good science/GPP city (your capital plus Mids) and one very good production city (working the floodplains/hills to the east) might just do.

Most AIs are less likely to DoW while they still have land to settle or barbarian cities in the way. Keeping your expansion down instead of settling dubious locations buys you some time to get the techs needed to bribe AIs into war. More importantly, it allows you to concentrate on developing the two cities you need right away.

Then: a run to advanced renaissance units and backstabbing whomever is the weakest neighbor, develop the captured cities, rinse and repeat.

Those are the two options I see: choprush or a couple of supercities. I'm neither saying they're the best, nor saying you have to choose, just sharing my opinion.

PS. I'd settle the production city 1s of your proposed location. This way it works two irrigated floods/oasis for food and three plain hills/one grass hill for hammers + all the food-neutral plains it manages. Obviously, if Cyrus is slow building a city for furs/silver is OK, but the commerce it's going to generate won't really matter on the scale of a supercity capital. The happy resources are nice but the capital will likely need Drama/culture slider anyway.

 

[DMOC]

Is there any action going on here? Deity is a challenge of course but some progress here would be welcome. Situation is fairly difficult btw.

There is no progress because I don't have that much time for Civ.

Civ is normally a game that I play on Fridays and Saturdays ONLY, and oftentimes I don't even have time on those days to play.

Hopefully look for an update this Friday.

USun - Thanks for your suggestions. I'm not big on the idea of rushing but the capital supercity with Pyramids is what I was thinking about trying.

For research I was thinking of simply going Hunting -> Archery and then make a run for Masonry (Pyramids after I settle 1 or 2 cities) THEN Pottery -> Writing I guess. I'll have to find some time for Agriculture, The Wheel, and Animal Husbandry, though.


Finally, does anyone know where I can find data on AI war declarations? What I mean is that I would like to know if my neighbors declare on Pleased, don't declare on pleased, PROBABILITY of declaring war, etc. I searched the forums but couldn't find any tables or charts.

 

[Quotey]

The best way is the XML- Firaxis Games\Sid Meier's Civilization 4\Beyond the Sword\Assets\XML\Civilizations\CIV4LeaderHeadInfos

Most of it is self explanatory.

 

[DanF5771]

Finally, does anyone know where I can find data on AI war declarations? What I mean is that I would like to know if my neighbors declare on Pleased, don't declare on pleased, PROBABILITY of declaring war, etc. I searched the forums but couldn't find any tables or charts.

It's a bit of a mess but this could be helpful, especially the Leaders spreadsheet. The only neighbor who will backstab at Pleased is Stalin (xml NoWarProb=90 for Pleased). Since he is also a likely candidate for pursuing the infamous Dagger strategy, the probability for a NoWarRoll @ Pleased will then even drop down to 80% for him!

PeaceWeight has no effect on the AI's attitude toward the human player and does not influence the probability to start a war at all. It only determines the hidden modifiers for AI-AI relations and is subject to a bit of randomness for each game (Base + [0,1,2]) but remains fixed after the initialization of the AI players. Since all your neighbors have very similar values for BasePeaceWeight they will like each other a lot --> bad for instigating wars between them. Unfortunately I cannot open the save (locked assets - do you play with default 3.17 or do you use Solver's patch or Dresden's update for that?). The glance screen might give away something about the hidden modifiers (they might be pleased at +-0 visible modifiers), could you post a screenshot? Stalin-Suleiman might have a hidden +5 due to PeaceWeight and WarmongerRespect alone.

Getting along with Cyrus should not be too difficult (BaseAttitude +1, BetterRankDifference +2, SameReligionLimit +4, NoWarProb = 100 @ Pleased). But Stalin is a threat (BaseAttitude -1, BetterRankDifference 0), he and Suleiman don't care too much about religious buddies (SameReligionLimit +2). You might try to avoid to be a valid LandTarget for Stalin. To achieve that you must have less than 8 land tiles adjacent to his territory (might be impossible...). That way you are only a valid target for a pass-3 TotalWar. If you manage to have Stalin <Friendly towards Suleiman and Pleased towards you and let them share a long enough border, then Suleiman will always be picked as a target before you, no matter how weak you are (pass-1 TotalWar; as long as Suleiman has < 1.65 * Stalin's power).

Good luck -- this is not going to be a walk in Gorky Park...

 

[DMOC]

It's a bit of a mess but this could be helpful, especially the Leaders spreadsheet. The only neighbor who will backstab at Pleased is Stalin (xml NoWarProb=90 for Pleased). Since he is also a likely candidate for pursuing the infamous Dagger strategy, the probability for a NoWarRoll @ Pleased will then even drop down to 80% for him!

PeaceWeight has no effect on the AI's attitude toward the human player and does not influence the probability to start a war at all. It only determines the hidden modifiers for AI-AI relations and is subject to a bit of randomness for each game (Base + [0,1,2]) but remains fixed after the initialization of the AI players. Since all your neighbors have very similar values for BasePeaceWeight they will like each other a lot --> bad for instigating wars between them. Unfortunately I cannot open the save (locked assets - do you play with default 3.17 or do you use Solver's patch or Dresden's update for that?). The glance screen might give away something about the hidden modifiers (they might be pleased at +-0 visible modifiers), could you post a screenshot? Stalin-Suleiman might have a hidden +5 due to PeaceWeight and WarmongerRespect alone.

Getting along with Cyrus should not be too difficult (BaseAttitude +1, BetterRankDifference +2, SameReligionLimit +4, NoWarProb = 100 @ Pleased). But Stalin is a threat (BaseAttitude -1, BetterRankDifference 0), he and Suleiman don't care too much about religious buddies (SameReligionLimit +2). You might try to avoid to be a valid LandTarget for Stalin. To achieve that you must have less than 8 land tiles adjacent to his territory (might be impossible...). That way you are only a valid target for a pass-3 TotalWar. If you manage to have Stalin <Friendly towards Suleiman and Pleased towards you and let them share a long enough border, then Suleiman will always be picked as a target before you, no matter how weak you are (pass-1 TotalWar; as long as Suleiman has < 1.65 * Stalin's power).

Good luck -- this is not going to be a walk in Gorky Park...

I'm not too familiar with this "dagger" thing you speak although it certainly does not seem positive.

So it seems that Montezuma, Isabella, Genghis Khan, Gilgamesh, Napoleon, Peter, Qin Shi Huang, Ragnar, Julius Caesar, Stalin, Suryavarman II, Louis XIV, Mao Zedong, Huayna Capac, and Tokugawa all declare war on pleased. I thought there were much fewer AI's than that...and the table doesn't even include all the OTHER AI's so there might be lots more that declare on pleased.

I'll take a look at the files and check that out. (Quotey's advice.)




Also, I have Blue Marble and BUG and 3.17 BtS in this game.

However, the thing is the game screen DOESN'T SHOW the BUG interface. I have no idea why this is happening...when I start any OTHER game on my computer I get the BUG interface but not this one... .

And I don't know if I have Solver's unofficial patch. I tried downloading it but I have no idea if I ACTUALLY have it or not. I wish there was a way I could tell (such as the game screen flashing a "Patch" message at the bottom or something).

 

[DanF5771]

Further down in the thread I tried to explain the "dagger" thing. There are 27 back stabber AIs who will DoW at Pleased. The picture of the table has the Leaders sorted by their iMaxWarNearbyPowerRatio (= attack courage, perception of own power) so no surprise that Monty is on top there. If you download the spreadsheet you can filter and sort all BTS Leaders for all the variables. This is the CIV4LeaderHeadInfos.xml only more readable (and with original AI colors ).

 

[Daedal]

Lots of food... couple of hills.... stone... limited expansion opportunities. If you roll out a quick second city where USun suggested to handle your more pedestrian production needs you could start wonderspamming your capital. It's too late for the super-early wonders, but you could start with 'mids and go from there.

I'm not familiar with deity barbs, but my guess is your bigger worry will be the AIs who will turn their greedy eyes on you the moment you begin to show even the slightest peaceful intent. The copper city is too far away, but chariots and archers, if you can afford the detour, would provide a teensy bit of AI deterrent. Some barracks and cheap walls will help raise your power rating too.

This looks interesting! Hopefully you can post a second round soon.

 

[DMOC]

Yeah, I know that I am going to be the butt of military targets.

But the question is whether to start teching masonry now (or the second tech of next round) or take the detour to archery first.

Sorry there wasn't an update, but I was simply TOO busy.