Do we descend from Neanderthal ?

[Lord Baal]

It seems that many people are presently disassembling the myths which justified the the out of africa/neanderthal extinction theory. One more:

Neanderthals cooked and ate vegetables

I read that the other day as well, and thought it to be quite strange. I've never considered the Neanderthals to be primarily carnivorous. Their teeth alone illustrates their omnivorous nature.

 

[Leifmk]

I suspect there are a few Eurasians walking around who may be carrying a bit more than the 1%-4% of Neanderthal DNA we're supposed to have. Saw a guy at a gas station a few days ago who looked pretty much exactly like every recent illustration of a Neanderthal I've seen.

 

[Lord Baal]

I suspect there are a few Eurasians walking around who may be carrying a bit more than the 1%-4% of Neanderthal DNA we're supposed to have. Saw a guy at a gas station a few days ago who looked pretty much exactly like every recent illustration of a Neanderthal I've seen.

I'm pretty sure the family below me in these flats may be more Neanderthal than not.

 

[BuckyRea]

I think there's a pretty good chance Senator Mark Warner is part Neanderthal.

I mean, dang, just look at his jawline, that browridge. It's like someone just thawed him out and gave him an MBA degree.

 

[dannyshenanigan]

 

[classical_hero]

My view is that Neanderthals are fully human, like we are. The only reason they were assumed to be different because they had to be according to the standard evolutionary story.

 

[Zelig]

My view is that Neanderthals are fully human, like we are. The only reason they were assumed to be different because they had to be according to the standard evolutionary story.

And genetic data from neanderthal remains?

 

[.Shane.]

Hmm.... thought this might be relevant to this thread.

Source

It's official: Most of us are part Neanderthal. The first draft sequence of the Neanderthal genome has provided the strongest evidence yet that modern humans and Neanderthals interbred and that all non-Africans today have Neanderthal gene fragments in their genetic codes
...
In addition to the interbreeding revelations, the study illuminates what makes modern humans unique.

The researchers found Neanderthal DNA is 99.7 percent identical to present-day human DNA, but Homo sapiens evolved distinct genes related to cognitive functions, metabolism and the development of cranial features, the collarbone and the rib cage.

Reich said three of the human-specific genes suggest that "skin and hair must have been particularly relevant to the evolution of modern humans," but additional analysis is needed.[/qote]

 

[BuckyRea]

I read they were redheads. I guess that sort of thing helps if you live up in Europe (or "on Europe" as they say in New York)

 

[Lord Baal]

I read they were redheads. I guess that sort of thing helps if you live up in Europe (or "on Europe" as they say in New York)

Many of them did apparently have red hair, yes. Some of them were also blonde though, and there were probably plenty of dark-haired Neanderthals.

 

[ParkCungHee]

I read they were redheads. I guess that sort of thing helps if you live up in Europe (or "on Europe" as they say in New York)

...No one says that.

 

[GoodGame]

It's the latest news - just happened to come across it sometime back.

However, who knows, someone in the future might come up with evidence of Neanderthal descent amongst some of us.

Sort of related is the proposal to clone a neanderthal from the sequenced genome.

http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/02/10/scientists-clone-neanderthals/

As scientists come closer to completing a draft sequence of the Neanderthal genome, creating a living person from an ancient DNA sequence is becoming a real possibility, according to Archaeology Magazine.

You can play around with the genomes yourselves: http://genome.ucsc.edu/Neandertal/


Actual Science article: http://www.sciencemag.org/content/328/5979/710.full
ABSTRACT:

Neandertals, the closest evolutionary relatives of present-day humans, lived in large parts of Europe and western Asia before disappearing 30,000 years ago. We present a draft sequence of the Neandertal genome composed of more than 4 billion nucleotides from three individuals. Comparisons of the Neandertal genome to the genomes of five present-day humans from different parts of the world identify a number of genomic regions that may have been affected by positive selection in ancestral modern humans, including genes involved in metabolism and in cognitive and skeletal development. We show that Neandertals shared more genetic variants with present-day humans in Eurasia than with present-day humans in sub-Saharan Africa, suggesting that gene flow from Neandertals into the ancestors of non-Africans occurred before the divergence of Eurasian groups from each other.

Minimal citing the article (got to pay for it, don't cha know):

The morphological features typical of Neandertals first appear in the European fossil record about 400,000 years ago (1–3). Progressively more distinctive Neandertal forms subsequently evolved until Neandertals disappeared from the fossil record about 30,000 years ago (4).... Neandertals presumably came into contact with anatomically modern humans in the Middle East from at least 80,000 years ago (6, 7) and subsequently in Europe and Asia.

Neandertals are the sister group of all present-day humans. Thus, comparisons of the human genome to the genomes of Neandertals and apes allow features that set fully anatomically modern humans apart from other hominin forms to be identified. In particular, a Neandertal genome sequence provides a catalog of changes that have become fixed or have risen to high frequency in modern humans during the last few hundred thousand years and should be informative for identifying genes affected by positive selection since humans diverged from Neandertals.

So basically, we don't descend from the Neanderthal, but are very close cousins from which comparisons give us interesting genomic info as to how we aren't related to our common ancestor, the chimpanzee.

Wikipedia:H. neanderthalensis
Le Ferrassie Neanderthal skull (cast)H. neanderthalensis lived from 400,000[34] to about 30,000 years ago. Also proposed as Homo sapiens neanderthalensis.[35] Evidence from sequencing mitochondrial DNA indicated that no significant gene flow occurred between H. neanderthalensis and H. sapiens, and, therefore, the two were separate species that shared a common ancestor about 660,000 years ago.[36][37] In 1997, Mark Stoneking stated: "These results [based on mitochondrial DNA extracted from Neanderthal bone] indicate that Neanderthals did not contribute mitochondrial DNA to modern humans… Neanderthals are not our ancestors". Subsequent investigation of a second source of Neanderthal DNA supported these findings.[38]

However, the 2010 sequencing of the Neanderthal genome indicated that Neanderthals did indeed interbreed with H. sapiens circa 75,000 BC (after H. sapiens moved out from Africa, but before they separated into Europe, the Middle East, and Asia).[39] Nearly all modern humans have 1% to 4% of their DNA derived from Neanderthal DNA.[39] This 1–4% bit of DNA is only present in non-African humans.[39] However, supporters of the multiregional hypothesis point to recent studies indicating non-African nuclear DNA heritage dating to one Ma,[40] although the reliability of these studies has been questioned.[41] Competition from Homo sapiens probably contributed to Neanderthal extinction.[42][43] They could have coexisted in Europe for as long as 10,000 years.[44]

Basically, Neanderthals exited Africa before humans, and interbred with some humans that exited Africa. But they only survived through that interbreeding.

You might try to say that "Europeans" descend from Neanderthals based on the interbreeding, but the evidence is something like only 4% or less of the human genome having Neanderthal genes that African H.sapiens don't have. It's sort of problematic to suggest that since it implies "Europeans" are a different species than "Africans", which is false.

 

[innonimatu]

Some more recent news about this, though I don't know how conclusive this find may be:

Recent work on the Neandertal genome has raised the possibility of admixture between Neandertals and the expanding population of H. sapiens who left Africa between 80 Kya and 50 Kya to colonize the rest of the world. Here we provide evidence of a notable presence (9% overall) of a Neandertal-derived X chromosome segment among all contemporary human populations outside Africa. Our analysis of 6092 X-chromosomes from all inhabited continents supports earlier contentions that a mosaic of lineages of different time depths and different geographic provenance could have contributed to the genetic constitution of modern humans. It indicates a very early admixture between expanding African migrants and Neandertals prior to or very early on the route of the out-of-Africa expansion that led to the successful colonization of the planet.

 

[Thormodr]

Fascinating thread and it's interesting to see how new research is changing our perceptions. I personally think that some people carry a little "Neanderthal blood" in them. I think it's highly unlikely that there wasn't some intermixing.

 

[Winner]

I think the research needs to focus more on Europe.

Since Europe was the main area of Neanderthal settlement, I'd expect more admixture among Europeans. I don't buy the notion that intermixing only happened in the Middle East for a short period of time. If mixing was biologically possible, then it must have occurred whenever Homo sapiens and Homo neanderthalensis met.

 

[Plotinus]

I'm puzzled by the fact that earlier commenters on this thread seem to think that Neanderthals had strong, jutting jaws. I've seen this expressed elsewhere online too. I wonder if it is a common misconception? Because of course Neanderthals had extremely weak jaws by our standards. One of the distinctive things about Homo sapiens, compared to other hominids, is the strong, jutting jaw. If you saw a Neanderthal today one of the first things you'd think would be what a chinless wonder he was.

 

[MajKira]

We do descend partly from neanderthal or Homo sapiens evolved from Earth but theres also extraterrestrial influence who taught us how to make a civilization. All progressive civilizations talk of Ancients who came from the heaven at beginning and in development of civilizations. From Atlantis descended other high cultures like Aegypt and looking exemplary to Korea the myth reports that:

Wikipedia
Dangun Wanggeom was the semi-legendary founder of Gojoseon, the first Korean kingdom, around present-day Liaoning, Manchuria, and the Korean Peninsula. He is said to be the grandson of heaven, and to have founded the kingdom in 2333 BC. The earliest recorded version of the Dangun legend appears in the 13th century Samguk Yusa, which cites China's Book of Wei and Korea's lost historical record Gogi
Dangun's ancestry legend begins with his grandfather Hwanin, the "Lord of Heaven". Hwanin had a son, Hwanung, who yearned to live on the earth among the valleys and the mountains. Hwanin permitted Hwanung and 3,000 followers to descend onto Baekdu Mountain, where Hwanung founded Sinsi ("City of God"). Along with his ministers of clouds, rain, and wind, he instituted laws and moral codes and taught humans various arts, medicine, and agriculture.

A tiger and a bear prayed to Hwanung that they may become human. Upon hearing their prayers, Hwanung gave them 20 cloves of garlic and a bundle of mugwort, ordering them to eat only this sacred food and remain out of the sunlight for 100 days. The tiger gave up after about twenty days and left the cave. However, the bear remained and was transformed into a woman.

The bear-woman (Ungnyeo) was grateful and made offerings to Hwanung. However, she lacked a husband, and soon became sad and prayed beneath a "Sindansu" ( "Divine Betula") tree to be blessed with a child. Hwanung, moved by her prayers, took her for his wife and soon she gave birth to a son, who was named Dangun Wanggeom.

Dangun ascended to the throne, built the walled city of Asadal, situated near Pyongyang (the location is disputed) and called the kingdom Joseon—-referred to today as "Old/Ancient Joseon" (Korean: "Gojoseon") so as not to be confused with the Joseon kingdom which occurred much later. He then moved his capital to Asadal on Mount Baegak (or Mount Gunghol).

 

[GoodGame]

Neanderthal and human remains can be difficult to distinguish, especially when dealing with very partial remains. Differences include an occipital bun (lump on the back of the head), lack of a chin, more prominent brow-ridge, broader nose, slightly bowed leg-bones and a generally more robust physique. Most of these features can be found in human skeletons to some degree; for instance, although humans have smaller skulls on average, it is not true to say that all humans have smaller skulls than all Neanderthals.

from:
http://leseyzies-tourist.info/history-of/the_neanderthal



I'd blame Hollywood, except if I google "Hollywood Neanderthall" images I don't find anything that I wouldn't recognize as fitting the above description.

 

[Thormodr]

I blame Quest for Fire and Ron Perlman personally.

Spoiler :

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Just read up on Homo Floresiensis. Very interesting stuff.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homo_floresiensis

Intriguing possibility although controversial I'm sure:

Local geology suggests that a volcanic eruption on Flores approximately 12,000 years ago was responsible for the demise of H. floresiensis, along with other local fauna, including the elephant Stegodon.[3] Gregory Forth hypothesized that H. floresiensis may have survived longer in other parts of Flores to become the source of the Ebu Gogo stories told among the local people. The Ebu Gogo are said to have been small, hairy, language-poor cave dwellers on the scale of this species.[38] Believed to be present at the time of the arrival of the first Portuguese ships during the 16th century, these creatures are claimed to have existed as recently as the late 19th century.[39] Gerd van den Bergh, a paleontologist working with the fossils, reported hearing of the Ebu Gogo a decade before the fossil discovery.[40] On the island of Sumatra, there are reports of a 1-1.5m tall humanoid, the Orang Pendek which might be related to H. floresiensis.[41] Henry Gee, senior editor at Nature magazine, speculates that species like H. floresiensis might still exist in the unexplored tropical forest of Indonesia.[42]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ebu_Gogo

 

[Domen]

Neanderthal and human remains can be difficult to distinguish, especially when dealing with very partial remains. Differences include an occipital bun (lump on the back of the head), lack of a chin, more prominent brow-ridge, broader nose, slightly bowed leg-bones and a generally more robust physique. Most of these features can be found in human skeletons to some degree; for instance, although humans have smaller skulls on average, it is not true to say that all humans have smaller skulls than all Neanderthals.

I blame Quest for Fire and Ron Perlman personally.

Spoiler :

This is closer to the truth:

Spoiler :