Gori the Grey
The Poster
- Joined
- Jan 5, 2009
- Messages
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Well, I was going to tell you what I thought about this thread topic . . .
Do you ever hold your tongue on facts to avoid arguments?
- Thread starter civvver
- Start date
GoodEnoughForMe
n.m.s.s.
I'm going to hold my tongue around my mother more when I want to criticize American policy, because it usually just ends in her telling me partially seriously to leave the country.
CavLancer
This aint fertilizer
I don't see how the situation is that much different if we had won it. Lets see, China would still be raising its ugly head in the region. Likely China would not have attacked Vietnam in the 70s if there was a contingent of US troops on the border. Doubt the nine dash line would include Vietnamese waters with USN coming and going. Vietnam could have been drilling for oil, but no. Of course with us it was just the south after the French lost the north, yes? Some deal with communist countries no doubt. So US troops would still be in the south, but China could more easily have its way with the north. The US would not have to negotiate for the return of Da Nang base rights, but we'll get those I'm sure. Vietnam needs defending from China again. So either way... What a waste that war was. Sad...
Sometimes the facts are just too complicated, or the person is clearly entrenched in their view, or the person is irrelevant and it doesn't really matter to me what they believe. Say for example my mechanic is misogynist. I'm not a woman, and my car is not a woman, so who cares. Are my facts going to fix my fuel pump?
FriendlyFire
Codex WMDicanious
I blame Obama.
Funding cut caused a crisis in public perception, at that time the US had left such a huge largess of Equipment that the Vietnamese couldnt even make use of all of it, including huge numbers of tanks and aircraft left behind when the US pulled out.
Not that the Vietnamese could have afforded to maintain this warmachine even if they had the trained personal, not for long anyways.
aelf
Ashen One
I just avoid getting into such situations as much as possible (not feasible when I see it on screen in the forum). Because if it gets to the point where someone gets huffy defending something factually wrong, then it would be difficult not to show that person the error of his/her ways.
yung.carl.jung
Hey Bird! I'm Morose & Lugubrious
Dear civver,
Going into this thread I was going to answer with "yes, I actually hold back quite a lot", but reading your opening post really made my blood boil
I don't even think you'd be a Dick Cheney for pulling out those credit card statements. You should look up the term "gaslighting", don't ever let it come that far
Though to be honest in my relationships and my current relationship I can't even remember a single case where I held back on correcting someone on a crucial fact that was wrong, nor will I ever do that. If I corrected my girlfriend she'll usually accept it or just lookt it up, because you know, information is readily available. I personally can't even imagine someone not willing to do that, it would drive me insane.
My friend, I think you made a grave error. You have been wronged. It appears all your previous relationships have been with magpies. These are a species of bird known (falsely) for liking shiny things. In this thread however we are talking about human females. Know the difference!
What if he's a racist? Is it okay if you're white? What if he's a Klan member and tells you all blacks should be hanged? Still okay? I think you're kind of arbitrarily drawing a line here. If someone's being openly misogynistic around me I'll call them out. If someone tells a racist joke, I'll call them out, too.
Going into this thread I was going to answer with "yes, I actually hold back quite a lot", but reading your opening post really made my blood boil
I don't even think you'd be a Dick Cheney for pulling out those credit card statements. You should look up the term "gaslighting", don't ever let it come that far
Though to be honest in my relationships and my current relationship I can't even remember a single case where I held back on correcting someone on a crucial fact that was wrong, nor will I ever do that. If I corrected my girlfriend she'll usually accept it or just lookt it up, because you know, information is readily available. I personally can't even imagine someone not willing to do that, it would drive me insane.
That was the last time you guys had significant money? That's what it is, trust me. Likely she got with her friends and one of them has a shiny new blah and all 'the girls' fawned over it and now she wants one. If you go into debt and get her one, next time she's out with 'the girls' you'll be facing the same **** but this time you'll be in debt.
Don't mean to be critical, not at all, just life, get used to it. But I tell you this: Men and women are d i f f e r e n t. If what I described is the case, and it often is, then if you are the breadwinner the real message here is that you aren't making enough bread. Edit: But trust me, in fact, t h a t is not the problem.
I'll catch crap from the ladies on the forum for this civvver. I'd have done better holding my tongue, but I'm not really good at that anyway. My point is this, you owe me a beer if we ever meet. You owe me a beer!
My friend, I think you made a grave error. You have been wronged. It appears all your previous relationships have been with magpies. These are a species of bird known (falsely) for liking shiny things. In this thread however we are talking about human females. Know the difference!
What if he's a racist? Is it okay if you're white? What if he's a Klan member and tells you all blacks should be hanged? Still okay? I think you're kind of arbitrarily drawing a line here. If someone's being openly misogynistic around me I'll call them out. If someone tells a racist joke, I'll call them out, too.
Spoiler :
Last edited:
Esperr
King
- Joined
- Jun 22, 2012
- Messages
- 868
What if he's a racist? Is it okay if you're white? What if he's a Klan member and tells you all blacks should be hanged? Still okay? I think you're kind of arbitrarily drawing a line here. If someone's being openly misogynistic around me I'll call them out. If someone tells a racist joke, I'll call them out, too.
Spoiler :
These are definitely the ones I avoid. A klan member or somebody who is openly racist where I live in 2016 isnt worth the time to try and argue with about there beliefs. Im also lazy and dont care enough to, but mostly the first one. This actually razes an interesting point. In one of the areas I used to work in, the culture was very much the "old south". We had a lot of white people who assumed that all other white people were secretly racist as well, but we all just mutually agreed to keep it secret because it wasn't PC or whatever. I would get a lot of clients who would make these racist comments when we were in the room alone together and I would normally just ignore it and move the conversation along.
Hygro
soundcloud.com/hygro/
Never let a good story derail the truth.
Regularly. I don't like arguments, and if opinions get very opinionated, I will even leave. The difference between being right and showing other people wrong can be quite aggravating, and I dislike aggravation.
dusters
Emperor
No. If I am asked directly and not in a rhetoric manner and the askee is a person I care about, I say everything that is relevant.
Lexicus
Deity
Depends on the social context. I try to keep it real but not always.
To add on to what I said earlier in the thread: A lot of the time I also just can't be bothered to educate someone. I don't get paid to educate people so if they want to walk around blissfully ignorant about certain matters, I'll let them continue on being blissfully ignorant. The fact that we live in an age where just about everyone has internet access and search engines that could answer just about any question they could think of asking has only reinforced this attitude in me. Now, my response to anyone who disagrees with something I know to be factually true is "fine, Google it if you don't believe me" and then I move on to another topic of conversation.
BvBPL
Pour Decision Maker
I’ve been known to hold my tongue on facts as a means to escalate an argument.
But as to the question at hand, if we’re playing “Never Have I Ever” then I would be drinking.
But as to the question at hand, if we’re playing “Never Have I Ever” then I would be drinking.
warpus
Sommerswerd asked me to change this
Sure, but when I am hanging out with my parents and other family elders and they start saying BS I call them out on it.
As a result I will be probably spending far less time with them, I am sick of their nonsense. I also don't find discussing things over and over and over any fun.. things that we as a society have sorted out already and put to bed.
"Want to visit your aunt and hang out with us and stuff?
"And have another 5 hour long conversation about Muslim lesbians? Forget it"
They'll either learn to not talk "politics" around me or they will see less of me. I'm not going to stop calling them out on their bigoted ideas, they're close family, and I can't just stay quiet. What am I going to do, sit there quietly and/or agree with them? No way, bring it on, if you want to talk politics, let's talk politics. I would be doing this family a disservice if I didn't say anything.
At least my parents have sort of figured out that bringing up "politics" with me around is not a good idea. So there's less and less of that. Which is good. And everybody involved here (parents, uncle, aunt, etc.) aren't going to disown me or anything like that, we all get along. Hateful things are never said our disagreements, we never go there. We disagree, we talk about it, then we go to sleep. No fighting allowed. We do all love each other too much for that.
This also never happens over dinner. Well, sometimes, but it doesn't ruin christmas dinner or whatever. I would never do that. When my dad says stupid things during big family dinners (that we want to remember for reasons other than muslim lesbians) I just try to change the subject. But I will speak up if we are just sitting there, doing shots of vodka, discussing stuff.
In the same vein I am far more diplomatic with this sort of thing in professional settings. You gotta be. It's also wise to pick your battles when it comes to friends, but if a friend of mine is good enough to be called a friend, I will be honest with this person. It's the least they deserve.
So it totally depends on the situation, but having said all I have said I differentiate between "arguments" and "disagreements". Me and my family never argue. We disagree and we spell out our points, and sometimes it might get heated, but it never gets nasty. So I think if you are able to voice your point of view without things getting nasty, and if you know the people well enough, go for it. Even if it ends up in a big discussion about muslim lesbians.
As a result I will be probably spending far less time with them, I am sick of their nonsense. I also don't find discussing things over and over and over any fun.. things that we as a society have sorted out already and put to bed.
"Want to visit your aunt and hang out with us and stuff?
"And have another 5 hour long conversation about Muslim lesbians? Forget it"
They'll either learn to not talk "politics" around me or they will see less of me. I'm not going to stop calling them out on their bigoted ideas, they're close family, and I can't just stay quiet. What am I going to do, sit there quietly and/or agree with them? No way, bring it on, if you want to talk politics, let's talk politics. I would be doing this family a disservice if I didn't say anything.
At least my parents have sort of figured out that bringing up "politics" with me around is not a good idea. So there's less and less of that. Which is good. And everybody involved here (parents, uncle, aunt, etc.) aren't going to disown me or anything like that, we all get along. Hateful things are never said our disagreements, we never go there. We disagree, we talk about it, then we go to sleep. No fighting allowed. We do all love each other too much for that.
This also never happens over dinner. Well, sometimes, but it doesn't ruin christmas dinner or whatever. I would never do that. When my dad says stupid things during big family dinners (that we want to remember for reasons other than muslim lesbians) I just try to change the subject. But I will speak up if we are just sitting there, doing shots of vodka, discussing stuff.
In the same vein I am far more diplomatic with this sort of thing in professional settings. You gotta be. It's also wise to pick your battles when it comes to friends, but if a friend of mine is good enough to be called a friend, I will be honest with this person. It's the least they deserve.
So it totally depends on the situation, but having said all I have said I differentiate between "arguments" and "disagreements". Me and my family never argue. We disagree and we spell out our points, and sometimes it might get heated, but it never gets nasty. So I think if you are able to voice your point of view without things getting nasty, and if you know the people well enough, go for it. Even if it ends up in a big discussion about muslim lesbians.
What's more important, that you prove your wife wrong and make her feel stupid or just ignore that she made a mistake?
CavLancer
This aint fertilizer
Wait, warpus, what's this about Muslim lesbians?
whyidie
Emperor
- Joined
- Dec 10, 2003
- Messages
- 1,187
For people I otherwise like and respect if they are repeat offenders I usually try to stay in my own orbit, but that doesn't always work as I'll usually get sucked in.
I'll usually try soft hints. Leading questions. Give them something to be right about. Like in your vacation conversation I might say something like :
"I'll be damned, its odd cause we financed the car and we didn't make any other large purchases that year. Where did we stay ?"
They answer.
"Oh right the $$$$ Hotel! We were only there for a day or two right ?"
They correct me, it was 7 days.
"Right that was a long stay, did we fly business class ? "
Of course we did you poor memoried sod.
"You're right! Maybe it does add up I guess"
If that doesn't do it I'll usually let it go if I respect the person as its clear there are other factors at play. If its just the two of us though, I'm not letting it drop.
1:1 situations the worst I'll do is backdoor it or engineer a soft landing.
Take your unemployment insurance example.
No cap.
"No kidding ? "
Yeah. Here are some tangentially unrelated anecdotes.
"Thats bizarre. So if millionaire CEO gets canned our taxes pay 85% of her salary ?"
Thats the law.
"Yowzers. Can you imagine. So when Ford canned their CEO the state was paying him millions ? How much you think he made ? "
Millions!
"We should look that up....10 million! He made 10million. So we were paying the weekly equivalent of 8.5 million a year!"
Well he probably didn't file for unemployment.
"Hmph. Huh, I don't know you really think we'd pay a person millions in unemployment ?"
At this point I've shown I'm willing to stoop to fact checking with the salary. I've been agreeable. I feel as if I've given them a lot of opportunities to back away from the non-facts. The choice is theirs on how the rest of the conversation goes.
Your dinner table discussion would drive me nuts. Especially the comment about "they run their own business they would know". That would grind my gears.
I'll usually try soft hints. Leading questions. Give them something to be right about. Like in your vacation conversation I might say something like :
"I'll be damned, its odd cause we financed the car and we didn't make any other large purchases that year. Where did we stay ?"
They answer.
"Oh right the $$$$ Hotel! We were only there for a day or two right ?"
They correct me, it was 7 days.
"Right that was a long stay, did we fly business class ? "
Of course we did you poor memoried sod.
"You're right! Maybe it does add up I guess"
If that doesn't do it I'll usually let it go if I respect the person as its clear there are other factors at play. If its just the two of us though, I'm not letting it drop.
1:1 situations the worst I'll do is backdoor it or engineer a soft landing.
Take your unemployment insurance example.
No cap.
"No kidding ? "
Yeah. Here are some tangentially unrelated anecdotes.
"Thats bizarre. So if millionaire CEO gets canned our taxes pay 85% of her salary ?"
Thats the law.
"Yowzers. Can you imagine. So when Ford canned their CEO the state was paying him millions ? How much you think he made ? "
Millions!
"We should look that up....10 million! He made 10million. So we were paying the weekly equivalent of 8.5 million a year!"
Well he probably didn't file for unemployment.
"Hmph. Huh, I don't know you really think we'd pay a person millions in unemployment ?"
At this point I've shown I'm willing to stoop to fact checking with the salary. I've been agreeable. I feel as if I've given them a lot of opportunities to back away from the non-facts. The choice is theirs on how the rest of the conversation goes.
Your dinner table discussion would drive me nuts. Especially the comment about "they run their own business they would know". That would grind my gears.
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