Does Race exist?

[Senethro]

Seriously! If being a fiscal drain (whatever that means in the social construct of money) is sufficient to render a person undesirable as a citizen then there are a lot of people at risk of having citizenship revoked.

 

[bernie14]

bernie14 said: 3/25/12.....As I see it, humans will try to justify anything to assume a position of power over others, including race, religion, wealth, physical prowess, the promise of equality and even intellectual wackery. this does not take away from the known genotypic and phenotypic differences amongst populations which in the 21st century, still cluster with a 99.84 concordance to self identified race/ethnicity.

Every biology, anatomy and genetics class I ever took represented "race" as geographically representative populations and the term was neither absolute or monolithic or even exclusive to humans. It never implied that any cluster is/was superior or inferior to any other. however, seems to me the social construct view of race has embraced this racist/unscientific definition, so as to justify its dismissal. through the manipulation of language, race is now synonymous with rasicm....that's fine by me, we can use a more politically correct term, such as "distinct population segments", that is, until some moron claims there are factors that make one segment superior to another, and we can start all over again....it reeks of newspeak to me.....

bernie14 said: 9/27/17.... perhaps the term "race" is not as useful as it was because of scientific advancement but soon enough, superiority and oppression will be claimed and clade will become cladism and haplogroups will become haplism....populationist?....genomist??

Well, it is rather strange to think i am of the view that people of different skin tone are "sub-human".

I don't think that. But that is in essence what "race" means, not the simply observation that people have different skin tones.

No, that's what "racism" means...

to my understanding, the term "race" -an identifiable group of people who share a common descent- , initially referred to heritable traits (which may include, but not limited to skin tone), as opposed to other "popular" or common sense thinking such as "they are dark cuz of the environment " or "well, god just made them that way".....

To me race = racism, is essentially the same as saying darwinism = social darwinism.

 

[El_Machinae]

Seriously! If being a fiscal drain (whatever that means in the social construct of money) is sufficient to render a person undesirable as a citizen then there are a lot of people at risk of having citizenship revoked.

Revoking a citizenship is very different from not allowing one.

But, I'm not entirely talking 'fiscal', but you always have to be careful about shifting the ratio of people your society can afford or not. You can only pay welfare out of profits. We're already over-consuming the planet, so nearly everyone is already a drain if viewed in too short of a timeframe.

 

[ulyssesSgrant]

Or you know you could just firmly assert that people are "ends in themselves" and as such considering anyone a "drain on society" is disgusting social darwinist poison

Why show someone that they are wrong by their own presuppositions when you could just firmly assert their position is disgusting! That'll show em!

 

[Estebonrober]

Why show someone that they are wrong by their own presuppositions when you could just firmly assert their position is disgusting! That'll show em!

In the case of hehehe his positions are so blatantly racist that the position is disgusting. Furthermore if you have never questioned why we only seem to measure civilization on monetary means than you might hold biased and uniformed positions that would lead to disgusting policies.

 

[Lexicus]

Revoking a citizenship is very different from not allowing one.

Not if you consider all humans to be of equal worth regardless of where they happen to be born, but yeah, this is absolutely true if we accept that it's fine for governments to treat people differently based on accident of birth.

Why show someone that they are wrong by their own presuppositions when you could just firmly assert their position is disgusting! That'll show em!

All you're doing by showing racists they are wrong by their own presuppositions is showing them how to build internally-consistent arguments in favor of racism, so yeah, hard pass on that one.

To me race = racism, is essentially the same as saying darwinism = social darwinism.

Well you are completely wrong and I daresay you don't understand the concepts of racism, Darwinism, or social Darwinism very well.

 

[Senethro]

To me race = racism, is essentially the same as saying darwinism = social darwinism.

Which falls apart when you examine that darwin's theories have had historical neutral (arguably good) uses and race (in the context of humans) has pretty much not. Only bad ones.

 

[Senethro]

Why show someone that they are wrong by their own presuppositions when you could just firmly assert their position is disgusting! That'll show em!

Its difficult to logic someone out of being malicious. You shouldn't have the expectation that you can really. Lex is more hanging a yellow warning sign up to let other people know the floor is slippery.

 

[bernie14]

In the case of hehehe his positions are so blatantly racist that the position is disgusting. Furthermore if you have never questioned why we only seem to measure civilization on monetary means than you might hold biased and uniformed positions that would lead to disgusting policies.

Speak for yourself, to many money may represent satisfaction, a sensation which long precedes civilization.

Well you are completely wrong and I daresay you don't understand the concepts of racism, Darwinism, or social Darwinism very well.

a little better, but i still find your opinions to be cartoonishly superficial

Here's what you remind me of:

Which falls apart when you examine that darwin's theories have had historical neutral (arguably good) uses and race (in the context of humans) has pretty much not. Only bad ones.

i think you are limiting your scope to a social context.

 

[El_Machinae]

Not if you consider all humans to be of equal worth regardless of where they happen to be born, but yeah, this is absolutely true if we accept that it's fine for governments to treat people differently based on accident of birth.

With respect, no one does. And if it's not based on location, we treat people differently based on time.

Government maintains a monopoly on violence and the ability to tax and spend. But they do so with the consent of the citizenry. If you want to use government to take something away from someone in order to give it to someone else, it's an uphill battle. And as I said, no one treats citizens of the world as if they were equals.

 

[Estebonrober]

Speak for yourself, to many money may represent satisfaction, a sensation which long precedes civilization.

What are you talking about? My point is that the fact that it is largely our only measure is FUBAR. Humans are more than their monetary value. You are more than your GDP output last year. Even if money is your thing in life, you are still more than that.

 

[bernie14]

Its difficult to logic someone out of being malicious. You shouldn't have the expectation that you can really. Lex is more hanging a yellow warning sign up to let other people know the floor is slippery.

Maliciousness can be highly logical

 

[bernie14]

What are you talking about? My point is that the fact that it is largely our only measure is FUBAR. Humans are more than their monetary value. You are more than your GDP output last year. Even if money is your thing in life, you are still more than that.

i don't see people like that at all, perhaps you are projecting?

 

[ulyssesSgrant]

All you're doing by showing racists they are wrong by their own presuppositions is showing them how to build internally-consistent arguments in favor of racism, so yeah, hard pass on that one.

When you don't challenge someone's actual worldview they just keep thinking it's correct and assume that is why it triggers the snowflakes. I'm not a racist-realist, I thought you were more woke than that. A racist is just a social construct created by progressives to demonize people. Embrace the greys instead of the blacks and the whites. Most of them are not innately bad people, they just think they are right, and get more confirmation and conviction from people who don't address their bad arguments but instead call them bad names.

I was raised in a fundamentalist religious home. I was taught it and I believe it and it was just a part of who I was. Because of those types of religious beliefs, I held a lot of political positions in retrospect I find them disgusting. I didn't become a good person. I didn't see the light because someone yelled "you're a bigot" at me, I changed my mind about things because I stopped believing certain previous assumptions, and I started to think about things from other people's perspectives. I did this because some people, with a little empathy, actually met me where I was and addressed my perspective.

 

[Estebonrober]

i don't see people like that at all, perhaps you are projecting?

I didnt say you did, but others on here seem to often. I was pointing out that in the immigration debate productivity seems to be the only concern. It shouldn’t be and it shouldn’t be in so many other policy decisions.

I think we are getting crossed up maybe if you are accusing me of projecting.

 

[bernie14]

I didnt say you did, but others on here seem to often. I was pointing out that in the immigration debate productivity seems to be the only concern. It shouldn’t be and it shouldn’t be in so many other policy decisions.

I think we are getting crossed up maybe if you are accusing me of projecting.

Got it, sorry, i have only skimmed through the thread, i didn't realize you were being so specific

EDIT. I would however argue that productivity and monetary worth are different things

 

[Estebonrober]

Got it, sorry, i have only skimmed through the thread, i didn't realize you were being so specific

EDIT. I would however argue that productivity and monetary worth are different things

I’d agree with that and definitely with that when we get into specificity regarding developing policies.

 

[Lexicus]

When you don't challenge someone's actual worldview they just keep thinking it's correct and assume that is why it triggers the snowflakes. I'm not a racist-realist, I thought you were more woke than that. A racist is just a social construct created by progressives to demonize people. Embrace the greys instead of the blacks and the whites. Most of them are not innately bad people, they just think they are right, and get more confirmation and conviction from people who don't address their bad arguments but instead call them bad names.

I was raised in a fundamentalist religious home. I was taught it and I believe it and it was just a part of who I was. Because of those types of religious beliefs, I held a lot of political positions in retrospect I find them disgusting. I didn't become a good person. I didn't see the light because someone yelled "you're a bigot" at me, I changed my mind about things because I stopped believing certain previous assumptions, and I started to think about things from other people's perspectives. I did this because some people, with a little empathy, actually met me where I was and addressed my perspective.

Fascinating. You appear to grasp that racism is not really a problem of individual psychology, then your solution appears to be individuals "seeing the light" through "empathy" and meeting them "where they are."

The disconnect is jarring. Unfortunately there are convinced individual racists out there. For example you can try a little empathy and meeting Hehehe where he is, and see where that gets you (tbh it's kind of instructive that you haven't bothered to engage with his posts in this thread, opting instead to tell me I'm doing it wrong).

In the real world the solution to racism is not any number of individuals "seeing the light" but a revolutionary political program of redistribution and reparation. And sadly, many people with a vested interest in the racist status quo will fight to the death to prevent that. Whether they are personally bigoted is irrelevant.

And before you get the wrong idea, the man in your avatar carried out such a program and killed quite a few people willing to fight to the death to prevent it. Sadly the success of that program was thwarted and sabotaged by reactionaries later on.

 

[ulyssesSgrant]

Fascinating. You appear to grasp that racism is not really a problem of individual psychology, then your solution appears to be individuals "seeing the light" through "empathy" and meeting them "where they are."

The disconnect is jarring. Unfortunately there are convinced individual racists out there. For example you can try a little empathy and meeting Hehehe where he is, and see where that gets you (tbh it's kind of instructive that you haven't bothered to engage with his posts in this thread, opting instead to tell me I'm doing it wrong).

In the real world the solution to racism is not any number of individuals "seeing the light" but a revolutionary political program of redistribution and reparation. And sadly, many people with a vested interest in the racist status quo will fight to the death to prevent that. Whether they are personally bigoted is irrelevant.

And before you get the wrong idea, the man in your avatar carried out such a program and killed quite a few people willing to fight to the death to prevent it. Sadly the success of that program was thwarted and sabotaged by reactionaries later on.

You carried this idea of "seeing the light" through your entire reply, but I specifically said that isn't what happened! What I said was that I was changed by people around me. This is slowly, over time, by people who I had established friendships with. It can happen through a forum, sure, but it's more likely to happen with people in your actual real life community. Those are the people who shape you. So yeah I'm not sure how to engage someone like Hehehe in this context.

For me it's jarring to read that the solution to racism is redistribution and reparation through social programs and killing people who oppose them. I'm always sceptical of people with think their political philosophy will solve humanities deepest problems. I'm not oppose to reparations and I'm in favour of redistribution in general, but these aren't just going to solve racism. I really just want to see change for the better, and I know that often does happen through political action, but it has to be the right kind. I'm not idolizing the individual. This is about shifting our communities and our culture from that of division and hate to one that listens and loves. I'm not convinced the transition has to be messy.

 

[Senethro]

I'm not convinced the transition has to be messy.

It'll be a tidy transition the next time the privileged group gives up without being sulky about it.