Does the American Civ make you uneasy?

[Never]

Cats, 200 years is nothing. In that 200 years, America has had its supremacy for, what, 70 years? Hardly something to brag about. Someone earlier mentioned that the USA is unlikely to collapse because other nations would 'come to its rescue because everyone wants to keep the status quo', well the fact is that it's always been that way. No one would have thought the English empire would have fallen, the Roman, the Persian. But they did.

The USA's supremacy is already coming to an end. The European Union is already a lot larger than the US economy and China is fast catching up. Taking Europe as a whole in comparison to the USA, well the USA can't even come close to the culture, music, art, science, economic or production power of Europe. Not even close.

Look I love the USA and hell I'd love to live in California but America hasn't really got much going for it (nowadays). Americans golden age was like 1920-1960. Someone earlier mentioned that America has the power to vanquish any civilization in existence today... well as a matter of fact they haven't without the use of ICBNs, which a lot of other nations have the ability to use as well. The USA hasn't even got the ability to conquer Afghanistan, let alone any civilization they wanted to.

As for defeating Islamic fundamentalism, well that's still hardly completed is it? I mean Obama is still alive and kicking, and there's hardly an end to bombs and stuff is there?

 

[Never]

Oh and why do people keep saying America invented the computer and the internet? The Europeans invented both devices, the English to be precise. As for Civilization (the game), well that was a Canadian.

 

[EmpireOfCats]

Does the US dominate the world, no not really.

I think you're seing this discussion from a too military perspective.

Chances are, unless you are from Saudi-Arabia, you are writing your posts while wearing jeans, possibly some sort of sport shoe on your feet, there is coke in your fridge, your computer is from an American company, with an American operating system (with a small chance that it was designed by Finn who lives in the U.S. and gets paid by Americans). You will have eaten at McDonalds, Burger King, and possibly even Subways. You eat corn, even if you call it maize, and don't feel it's only good for animal feed (ask the severely insulted Germans after WW2).

You probably read far more American English books and see American flims, even than whatever your native country produces (unless you live in India or Hongkong). You will have heard of Playboy, Rambo, Avatar, Mickey Mouse, Uncle Tom, Apocalypse Now, Superman, Forest Gump, Zombies (the non-Voodoo kind), Marilyn Monroe, Martin Luther King, Lady Gaga, and John Wayne. You know how a Vulcan says goodbye, who the captain of the Enterprise was, and which type of The Force is good.

There is a high probability that your native language is being absolutely saturated with words and phrases that came from American English to the point where your country has some sort of group like the Verein Deutsche Sprache in Germany who sees it as their job to keep your language "clean" or "pure" of Amerikanismen. Your artists will scream bloody murder to get state funding so that they can compete with American music, or even better, to introduce a quota to "protect our local culture". You know what Halloween is, and more and more children in your neighborhood do, too. Your mental picture of Santa involves a guy in a red coat invented by the Coca Cola company. Your country observes Labor Day, though most of your fellow citizens don't know where the tradition comes from.

If you are a hetrosexual male, your girlfriend or wife will probably have used the pill at some point in her life. She might even own and electric vibrator. If you are a homosexual male, your largest yearly celebration will commemorate a street battle in New York, which grew out of a sense of identity from when an American biologist decided to apply the scientific method to human sexuality and published his findings.

And you will tend to put your hands in your pockets while you are standing around waiting -- unthinkable for a European gentleman before the GIs brought it to England during WW2 (of course, I don't know if you are European).

In fact, chances are that if your great-grandfather were to see you today, he would have a hard time telling you are not an American. By your traditional music? Your traditional clothes? Your traditional food? Ah, the language maybe. And of course your passport. And yes, always in your heart, I'm sure.

tl;dr: What I am getting to is that the influence of the U.S. -- and again, I'm not claiming this is all good -- has been so prevalent since WW2 that people don't even realize how great it is, or, to put it in the language of America's detractors, how much "has been lost". If this is not getting close to a "cultural win", I'd be interested to see what you think is missing.

It is this influence, and not only the military, industrial, economic, and historical factors, that are a pretty good argument to include the USA in Civ.

 

[Schuesseled]

the internet isn't a device. and yes brits invented the first computer, it was used to decode german messages wasn't it?

@above post, you have jsut made a rediculous amount of assumptions. Oh and McDonalds is a franchise, it isn't american at all, have you seen the menu for an indian mcDonalds.

 

[ladedadedum]

Cats, 200 years is nothing. In that 200 years, America has had its supremacy for, what, 70 years? Hardly something to brag about. Someone earlier mentioned that the USA is unlikely to collapse because other nations would 'come to its rescue because everyone wants to keep the status quo', well the fact is that it's always been that way. No one would have thought the English empire would have fallen, the Roman, the Persian. But they did.

Things are different now, old rules don't apply. People aren't using metal as currency, no country in their right mind would let USA fall if they wanted their money to be worth anything.

The USA's supremacy is already coming to an end. The European Union is already a lot larger than the US economy and China is fast catching up. Taking Europe as a whole in comparison to the USA, well the USA can't even come close to the culture, music, art, science, economic or production power of Europe. Not even close.

And you only have twice the population, yet you barely squeaked by (which is debatable anyways). Besides, aren't those old buildings just fire hazards now? We have fire hazards too, we just call it what it is, trash. I'm not even going to compare the amount of game, movie or music studios or the cultural influence they have.

Look I love the USA and hell I'd love to live in California but America hasn't really got much going for it (nowadays). Americans golden age was like 1920-1960. Someone earlier mentioned that America has the power to vanquish any civilization in existence today... well as a matter of fact they haven't without the use of ICBNs, which a lot of other nations have the ability to use as well. The USA hasn't even got the ability to conquer Afghanistan, let alone any civilization they wanted to.

Are you seriously suggestion USA could not completely level Afghanistan if they wanted? Believe what you want, this is a costly and long involvement because we are actively trying to avoid a complete decimation of a people; did anyone even care about doing that 200 years ago? We spend $1,200,000,000,000 on defense, does yours even make that?

 

[Sonereal]

Cats, 200 years is nothing. In that 200 years, America has had its supremacy for, what, 70 years? Hardly something to brag about. Someone earlier mentioned that the USA is unlikely to collapse because other nations would 'come to its rescue because everyone wants to keep the status quo', well the fact is that it's always been that way. No one would have thought the English empire would have fallen, the Roman, the Persian. But they did.

Except those were Empires. It isn't like we have to worry about the fierce Germanic barbarian armies marching up from Mexico.

Supremacy? I wanted to say 60 but its 2010. I wouldn't say we have "supremacy" but we're good. The English Empire didn't fall as hard as the Roman Empire did.

The USA's supremacy is already coming to an end. The European Union is already a lot larger than the US economy and China is fast catching up. Taking Europe as a whole in comparison to the USA, well the USA can't even come close to the culture, music, art, science, economic or production power of Europe. Not even close.

Is there a competition here? The problem is that if the EU disappears, the world's economy would crash. If China left, again, crash. If the US left, crash for China at least. Maybe the EU. Americans do like buying stuff.

Look I love the USA and hell I'd love to live in California but America hasn't really got much going for it (nowadays). Americans golden age was like 1920-1960.

Golden age during a Great Depression, World War 2, and the Korean War?

lolwut?

I would say our "Golden Age" was between the Fall of the Wall and 9/11.

Someone earlier mentioned that America has the power to vanquish any civilization in existence today... well as a matter of fact they haven't without the use of ICBNs, which a lot of other nations have the ability to use as well.

Realistically, only Russia has the mind-crushing powerful weapons and numbers to even things out. One or two nukes don't wipe out civilizations.

The USA hasn't even got the ability to conquer Afghanistan, let alone any civilization they wanted to.

Civilization=/=country

What happens in the real world isn't reflected in-game too much. You conquer France in-game and I doubt there'll be partisans. In the real world, we probably could crush anybody conventionally but to conquer? Ha.

As for defeating Islamic fundamentalism, well that's still hardly completed is it? I mean Obama is still alive and kicking, and there's hardly an end to bombs and stuff is there?

I'm....unsure why Obama was brought up to be honest. Islamic fundamentalism? Being possible to defeat? That's so silly. That's like the War on Drugs or War on Terrorism. You can't win those wars with some very 1984-esque tactics. That would be like if there was a war on Christian fundamentalism or on vegetarianism.

Yes, this is the only reason to include the US, the game isn't about what Civilisation is best from 1800-2000, its about a much bigger scale and the US hasn't done all that much in comparisson. You can detail the things it has done to change the world, but all Civ's have done similar things to change their world at the time, the US is merely a recent Civ to do it, that alone does not merit thier inclusion, but the fact that a lot of people are customers to buy the game simply because they are alive today and not living in Rome in 2000BC is why they will be included.

Wait, what?

The fact that the civilization has to be included to try to win in American customers should be some kind of indicator, shouldn't it?

You have to put things into perspective, if the Romans were around today, would the US still be the worlds economic power

Umm....if Rome was around today, there would be so many butterflies that the answer would become void anyway.

The US may not of ever existed had history not taken place as it had

Neither would any other civilization on the face of the earth.

you have to judge the civ's based on the world they existed in, is the US massively dominant over everyone else to the extent that August Ceaser of the Romans was, or Alexander of the Greeks was.

Alexander was....Macedonian.

Whatever.

Define "dominant". The scale is far greater than it was in the time of Rome. It's pretty easy to say you conquer the known world when you know so little of it like in Rome's case. Rome didn't have the ability to project power across the globe like the US (and eventually China once they start building more ACs)

It's really a hard question to quantify, but I refuse to agree with people who say it definitely should be in the game "because we invented the internet, enough said". Does the ancient civlization "9500–6500 BC: Aceramic Neolithic" sometime around then, deserve to be in Civ purely because they invented the first wheel ever to be invented, its comparable to simply inventing the internet. If we included every civ based on discovering something great, then every single civ to exist would be in the game. No, we are going by Civ's that truely were dominant in their world. Does the US dominate the world, no not really.

I don't think you know much about the US. I mean, there's also the whole thing about the US tripling in size in a 100 years, becoming the first New World major power, one of the first industrial powers, and having a shockingly high number of resources. I can question France being in the game to be honest. I mean really, what have they really done more notable than America besides conquer Europe (and fail like the Germans did)?

Oh and why do people keep saying America invented the computer and the internet? The Europeans invented both devices, the English to be precise. As for Civilization (the game), well that was a Canadian.

Wasn't one of the earliest computers German?



In any case, this discussion is mute. America, barring some pretty chaotic situation, will be included in every Civ game made up until 2100. Why? Where do you see the US in 2015? 2020? 2040? 2050?

 

[Schuesseled]

Moderator Action: *snip*

_ edit @ above post, why should France be in the game, ever heard of liberty, the concept of freedom, hell have you heard of a Croissant!

Oh and every civ in the world will no longer exist come 2012, long live the prophecy.

 

[EmpireOfCats]

Moderator Action: *snip*

Moderator, please close the thread.

 

[ladedadedum]

done. i'm done.

Just, yeah the first binary computer was developed in german afaik, but the first real one (read: digital and not some glorified abacus that made holes in paper) was made at Iowa State (who just got their asses handed to them by the Hawks! Go Hawks, IA City represent! Go UI!).

 

[Schuesseled]

I agree close the thread. Bah

 

[novaya]

America *does* have a cultural identity, and it's British. We learn about English history in school like it's "our" history. *That's* why an American civ is kind of absurd: we're a British colony.

You do realize that without an American civilization and culture we wouldn't even have a Civilization franchise in which to argue the merits of its inclusion?

Civilization (the game) is an American product. And the franchise is global. I find arguments against American inclusion completely laughable given this fact.

 

[Never]

I think you're seing this discussion from a too military perspective.

Chances are, unless you are from Saudi-Arabia, you are writing your posts while wearing jeans, possibly some sort of sport shoe on your feet, there is coke in your fridge, your computer is from an American company, with an American operating system (with a small chance that it was designed by Finn who lives in the U.S. and gets paid by Americans). You will have eaten at McDonalds, Burger King, and possibly even Subways. You eat corn, even if you call it maize, and don't feel it's only good for animal feed (ask the severely insulted Germans after WW2).

Jeans were invented by Italians. Coke was invented by a French man. The computer was invented by the English. The Internet in CERN by an English man. McDonalds, Burger King, Subways... I'm sure you've eaten spag boll, lobster thermedor and noodle soup as well yeah? As for corn, what has corn got to do with culture?

Your probably read far more American English books and see American flims, even than whatever your native country produces (unless you live in India or Hongkong). You will have heard of Playboy, Rambo, Avatar, Mickey Mouse, Uncle Tom, Apocalypse Now, Superman, Forest Gump, Zombies (the non-Voodoo kind), Marilyn Monroe, Martin Luther King, Lady Gaga, and John Wayne. You know how a Vulcan says goodbye, who the captain of the Enterprise was, and which type of The Force is good.

I live in England and I definitely read a lot more English, French and Russian literature than American. You've heard of the Beatles, BMW, Mercedes, Ferrari, Richard Branson, the BBC, James Bond, Dragon Ball Z, (who's uncle tom??), and Churchill?

There is a high probability that your native language is being absolutely saturated with words and phrases that came from American English to the point where your country has some sort of group like the Verein Deutsche Sprache in Germany who sees it as their job to keep your language "clean" or "pure" of Amerikanismen. Your artists will scream bloody murder to get state funding so that they can compete with American music, or even better, to introduce a quota to "protect our local culture". You know what Halloween is, and more and more children in your neighborhood do, too. Your mental picture of Santa involves a guy in a red coat invented by the Coca Cola company. Your country observes Labor Day, though most of your fellow citizens don't know where the tradition comes from.

There is a lot of foreign influences in American English as well. Ciao being one example. Au revoir another. No European music artist gets state funding, and besides European music is far more diverse and superior to American. Europeans invented rock and roll, drum and bass, salsa, bachata, classical, dubstep, etc. etc. etc. America? Western... I haven't ever heard of Labour Day before.

It you are a hetrosexual male, your girlfriend or wife will probably have used the pill at some point in her life. She might even own and electric vibrator. If you are a homosexual male, your largest yearly celebration will commemorate a street battle in New York, which grew out of a sense of identity from when an American biologist decided to apply the scientific method to human sexuality and published his findings.

What the hell has the pill got to do with anything? Yeah and American invented the pill. Big wow. The Egyptians were using contraception thousands of years ago, you don't see anybody trying to claim that Egyptian culture has seeped into our lives because I use a condom? A vibrator? What the hell man? As for the gay celebration, I've never heard of it before.

And you will tend to put your hands in your pockets while you are standing around waiting -- unthinkable for a European gentleman before the GIs brought it to England during WW2 (of course, I don't know if you are European).

Nope, don't do this and I don't recall seeing people in Asda queuing up with their hands in their pockets either?

In fact, chances are that if your great-grandfather were to see you today, he would have a hard time telling you are not an American. By your traditional music? Your traditional clothes? Your traditional food? Ah, the language maybe. And of course your passport. And yes, always in your heart, I'm sure.

Ever heard of globalisation?

 

[Viatrix]

All this America fanaticism makes me puke... Yuk. So much arrogance and foolish pride... Please stop it.

And to the original poster: the best way to avoid sadness is to avoid games with America. Most of us agree that the main reason for America's presence in the game is to improve the sales.

Plus this game is just a game. This game is full of historical inaccuracies, so you better just leave it.

 

[novaya]

Most of us agree that the main reason for America's presence in the game is to improve the sales.

Ridiculous. On its face.

Again. Civ was produced as a franchise within America, by Americans and initially sold within America. You can't make Civ a "global collaboration" or somehow have some global standard after-the-fact.

Civ wouldn't exist without America. Point. blank. period.

 

[Never]

Except those were Empires. It isn't like we have to worry about the fierce Germanic barbarian armies marching up from Mexico.

Supremacy? I wanted to say 60 but its 2010. I wouldn't say we have "supremacy" but we're good. The English Empire didn't fall as hard as the Roman Empire did.

the USA is an empire.

Sure America doesn't have to fear a warring tribe but neither did the Roman Republic. the fact is The future is unpredictable. A fall may as well be a rise for another civilization/empire. For example the European Common Market, India or China may rise to take over American's supremacy within the next century. The fact that China owns most of American's wealth and that most of America's production has moved to the far-East should send alarm bells ringing that America is not generating the wealth it used to.

Look at Bollywood. It was mentioned earlier than we all watch American movies. Well Bollywood is actually larger than Hollywood now. In 100 years... maybe we'll all be watching Indian movies? Who knows.

Is there a competition here? The problem is that if the EU disappears, the world's economy would crash. If China left, again, crash. If the US left, crash for China at least. Maybe the EU. Americans do like buying stuff.

If the USA crashed the whole world would crash, just like if China or the EU crashed the whole world would crash. However the fall of America doesn't have to be a quick thing, it willl likely be a drawn out process (something we're living through right now).

Golden age during a Great Depression, World War 2, and the Korean War?

lolwut?

I would say our "Golden Age" was between the Fall of the Wall and 9/11.

I disagree, but nevermind.

Realistically, only Russia has the mind-crushing powerful weapons and numbers to even things out. One or two nukes don't wipe out civilizations.




Civilization=/=country

What happens in the real world isn't reflected in-game too much. You conquer France in-game and I doubt there'll be partisans. In the real world, we probably could crush anybody conventionally but to conquer? Ha.

'Crush' 'conquer'. Same thing as far as I'm concerned. America is nothing compared to the Brits, Russians, French, Romans, Arabians, Chinese. They can't crush a small provincial like Iraq or Afghanistan without half the world backing them up morally and militaristically. America had its golden age during ww2. It has been ineffective as a world power since then, unlike the above civilizations I mentioned.

I'm....unsure why Obama was brought up to be honest. Islamic fundamentalism? Being possible to defeat? That's so silly. That's like the War on Drugs or War on Terrorism. You can't win those wars with some very 1984-esque tactics. That would be like if there was a war on Christian fundamentalism or on vegetarianism.

Sorry I meant Osama. Yeah I agree it is silly. Hence why I challenged one of your fellow USA-is-great-and-the-leader-of-the-world-in-everything supporters for attempting to bring the USA's defeat of Islamic fundamentalism as a point to your side of the argument. But thanks for helping me highlight its fallacy anyway.

 

[Viatrix]

Ridiculous. On its face.

Again. Civ was produced as a franchise within America, by Americans and initially sold within America. You can't make Civ a "global collaboration" or somehow have some global standard after-the-fact.

Civ wouldn't exist without America. Point. blank. period.

... Are you saying creating a certain videogame turns your country into a great, long-lasting civilization? Creating such thing really isn't all that honorable accomplishment.

I certainly agree that the game's makers are allowed to make their game however they want to -- and that is why America is in, to improve the sales.

 

[Never]

Ridiculous. On its face.

Again. Civ was produced as a franchise within America, by Americans and initially sold within America. You can't make Civ a "global collaboration" or somehow have some global standard after-the-fact.

Civ wouldn't exist without America. Point. blank. period.

But why not? Sid is Canadian, and Americans didn't invent videogames. More than likely Civ would exist if America didn't exist. But in any case if America didn't exist, more than likely most of us wouldn't exist either. The point isn't what wouldn't exist without America (because everything invented by Americans would eventually be invented by someone anyway, an invention isn't so much to do with the civilization it is within but what proceeded it and other circumstances which have nothing to do with red, white and blue), but that America isn't as fantastic and brilliant and infallible and everlasting and ordained-by-god-before-the-existence-of-the-universe as some people seem to believe.

 

[The_J]

Moderator Action: I have no idea, why or why not the american civilization is making people uneasy, but the thread about this topic is sure making people uneasy, like you can read here. This thread is in most posts borderline to trolling and flaming, and will sure degenerate more in a few posts -> will not happen, closed.