Does (The Christian) God have Limited Power?

[El_Machinae]

We'd expect events closer in time to have superior documentation, though, right?

And how is the historicity of this?

"The last battle where Scandinavians attributed a victory to Odin was the Battle of Lena in 1208.[14] The former Swedish king Sverker had arrived with a large Danish army, and the Swedes led by their new king Eric were outnumbered. It is said that Odin then appeared riding on Sleipnir and he positioned himself in front of the Swedish battle formation. He led the Swedish charge and gave them victory."

Odin appearing in front of hundreds of people, to help defeat thousands! And less than a thousand years ago!

 

[Dachs]

I know virtually nothing about the historiography surrounding that particular incident.

 

[Behind The Mask]

We'd expect events closer in time to have superior documentation, though, right?

And how is the historicity of this?

Odin appearing in front of hundreds of people, to help defeat thousands! And less than a thousand years ago!

Not to mention Thor is set to make appearances around the world pretty soon

 

[Truronian]

He always existed. But since his power is infinite, we have no need to explain that

His power can't be infinite. It makes no logical sense. Were it infinite, he would be able to create a chicken kiev so massive that not even he could fit it in an oven, and thus his power would be limitted.

@Seon- Are you really trying to tell me 500 people hallucinated the same thing at the same time? Seriously?

I'm guessing you think Houdini was a wizard?

 

[El_Machinae]

Oh, upthread someone mentioned the expansion/contraction of the universe. If you mean the Universe that we find to be visible to us, then 'no', this theory isn't credible. If you mean the theorized multiverse, then yes, it can be endlessly dynamic (even if ours is not).

 

[Dachs]

His power can't be infinite. It makes no logical sense. Were it infinite, he would be able to create a chicken kiev so massive that not even he could fit it in an oven, and thus his power would be limitted.

Dude, Augustine figured out a plausible loophole for that a long time ago; omnipotence paradox isn't very interesting compared to the problem of evil or something like that

but then again, Plotinus resolved every single one of these threads something like five years ago, and that hasn't stopped local fools from restarting them ad nauseam
Moderator Action: And I guess flaming hasn't gone out of style either
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Truronian]

Dude, Augustine figured out a plausible loophole for that a long time ago; omnipotence paradox isn't very interesting compared to the problem of evil or something like that.

Yes, I remember my theologian friend telling me about that. Something to do with God not being able to do it because he is omnipotent?

I like the paradox because it forces people to thing about what they mean by infinitely powerful and omnipotent. I generally find they come up with pretty nonsensical or contradictory definitions. I imagine for Domination3000, infinitely powerful just refers to God's ability not to play by the very rules Domination3000 has come up with to 'prove' his existence.

I should get back to applying for jobs...

 

[GhostWriter16]

Actually, what you guys fail to understand is that we have 4 sources, the book of Matthew, the book of Mark, the book of Luke, and the Book of John, all by different authors and all telling basically the same story (Some add more details of different things than others, but none directly contradict). And of those 4 sources, at least 2 were written by Eyewitnesses (I think Luke was one, but I KNOW Matthew and John were) and one was written by someone who spoke with a guy who later died for what he saw. I think the info is pretty accurate

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Don't those sources disagree with each other about who saw Zombie Jesus at specific points and some of the info is contra-dictionary?

 

[GhostWriter16]

I shouldn't even respond when you use nonsense terms like "Zombie Jesus" and I will not do so again. Use a more realistic term please. Its kind of annoying.

That said, if I say, "Mary and Martha went to the tomb" (I don't even remember if the other woman was Martha, I'm just giving an example", you say "Mary and another woman went to the tomb" and Dachs says "Mary, Martha, and two other women went to the tomb", there isn't a contradiction, just they each left out different details.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Oh right, so you are the only one who can make quips about other people's believes whenever you wish, but when you have to take what you dish out you act all indignant because of the superdooper holiness of yours and all I got is dirty ol' science which can be mocked and laughed at at your whim? (Answer: yes you can mock and laugh, but don't go all woe-is-me on me when you get the same treatment.) Anyway, fine don't respond to me. See if I care.

But here's what I got with a bit of googling ...

Was it still dark out? (Yes: John 20:1) (No: Mt 28:1; Mk 16:2).

Did Mary Magdalene tell any men about the tomb? (Yes: Mt 28:8; Lu 24:9-10; John 20:2) (No: Mk 16:8).

Did she go back to the tomb with any of them? (Yes: John 20:2-11) (No: Mt 28:1-10,16; Mk 16:8-14; Lu 24:9-12).

Was there just one angel at Jesus's tomb? (Yes: Mt 28:2-5; Mk 16:5-6) (No, there were two: Lu 24:4-5; John 20:11-13).

Were the angels inside the tomb? (Yes: Mk 16:5; John 20:11-12) (No, the one angel was outside: Mt 28:2).

Were there guards at the tomb? (Yes: Mt 27:62-66, 28:2-4,11-15) (No: Mk 15:44-16:10; Lu 23:50-24:12; John 19:38-20:12).

Did the angel(s) look like lightning? (Yes: Mt 28:2-4) (No, humanlike: Mk 16:5; Lu 24:4).

Did the angel(s) get to the tomb first? (Yes: Mk 16:5) (No: Lu 24:2-4; John 20:1-12).

Did Peter go alone? (Yes: Lu 24:12) (No: John 20:2-6).

Did Jesus appear first to Cephas (Peter)? (Yes: 1Co 15:3-5) (No: Mt 28:9; Mk 16:9; Lu 24:9-15; John 20:14).

Did he appear at all to Mary Magdalene? (Yes: Mt 28:9; Mk 16:9 John 20:11-14) (No: Lu 24:1-51; 1Co 15:3-8).

Did he appear to her at the tomb after the disciples were told? (Yes: John 20:1-14) (No, Not at the tomb, and before they were told: Mt 28:1-9; Mk 16:1-10).

Was she alone when Jesus appeared to her? (Yes: Mk 16:9-10; John 20:10-14) (No, the other Mary was with her: Mt 28:1-9).

Did she recognize him immediately? (Yes: Mt 28:9; Mk 16:9-10) (No: John 20:14).

Did Peter go to the tomb before the others were told about it? (Yes, but he was not alone: John 20:1-3,18) (No, it was after, and he went alone: Lu 24:9-12.

Did Jesus specially appear to two disciples? (Yes: Mk 16:12; Lu 24:13-31) (No: Mt 28:16-18; John 20:19-29).

Did they recognize him immediately? (Yes: Mk 16:12-13) (No: Lu 24:13-16).

Did he later appear as they spoke to the others? (Yes: Lu 24:36) (No, it was after: Mk 16:14).

Did he scold the others for not believing them? (Yes: Mk 16:14) (No: Lu 24:35-51).

Did Jesus appear just once to the disciples? (Yes: Mk 16:14-19; Lu 24:36-51) (No, it was thrice: John 20:19-26, 21:1-2,14).

Was the 1st appearance to them in Galilee? (Yes: Mt 28:9-10,16-18) (No: Lu 24:33-36,49-51; John 20:18-26; Ac 1:4).

Did they all recognize him immediately? (Yes: Mk 16:14-20; John 20:19-20) (No: Mt 28:16-17; Lu 24:36-41).

Did he ascend to heaven immediately afterwards? (Yes: Mt 28:9-10,16-20; Mk 16:14-19; Lu 24:36-51) (No: John 20:19-26, 21:1; Ac 1:1-9; 1Co 15:3-8).

Did he appear to them twice, eight days apart? (Yes: John 20:19-26) (No: Mt 28:9-20; Mk 16:14-19; Lu 24:36-51).

Did he appear to the Twelve, to over 500, & then specially to James? (Yes: 1Co 15:5-7) (No: Mt 27, 28; Mk 16; Lu 24; John 20, 21).

Did Jesus ascend to heaven from Bethany? (Yes: Lu 24:50-51) (No, from Mt. Olivet: Ac 1:9-12; and from Jerusalem: Mk 16:14-19).

Did Paul's companions hear Jesus's voice? (Yes: Ac 9:7) (No: Ac 22:9, 26:14)

(Disclaimer: I didn't look at the quotations, if there are many faults in them I apologize and will punish myself accordingly at a later date)

Pretty accurate info? No contradictions?

 

[Behind The Mask]

I shouldn't even respond when you use nonsense terms like "Zombie Jesus" and I will not do so again. Use a more realistic term please. Its kind of annoying.

I'm gonna be honest.

Its hugely hypothetical to get onto someone else about being 'realistic' considering the position you're supporting.

Cause honestly, if I may be honest; alot of the stuff supported by religion comes off as a tad-bit, massively outrageous.

 

[El_Machinae]

Actually, what you guys fail to understand is that we have 4 sources, the book of Matthew, the book of Mark, the book of Luke, and the Book of John, all by different authors and all telling basically the same story (Some add more details of different things than others, but none directly contradict). And of those 4 sources, at least 2 were written by Eyewitnesses (I think Luke was one, but I KNOW Matthew and John were) and one was written by someone who spoke with a guy who later died for what he saw. I think the info is pretty accurate

This is almost entirely inaccurate. It's a good synopsis of what I was taught as a Christian, but it's quite in error factually.

None of them are eyewitnesses, in a completely obvious way.

Matthew & Luke are cribbed off of Mark and another source (called "Q", usually). John is removed from these three books, and is made up from another school, and is why John's Jesus is so different from Mark's Jesus (John has Jesus acting more like a greek god than Mark does).

There's much more to the actual history of these books. None of them involve any of the authors meeting Jesus.

 

[Truronian]

The etymological roots of the word zombie are religious.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

I think I can find more sources about eyewitnesses, recent ones from people who are still around, claiming Elvis is still alive.

Well ... I guess he didn't do drugs (yes ... Penn & Teller)

 

[GhostWriter16]

@Ziggy- I don't have time to go through all of them ATM, so I'm just gonna do the first three. I will go through the rest at a later date if you'd like.

First one- Simple. "Dawn" refers to the first moment where the first crack of light hits the sky. It is still reletively dark at this point, but there is a little bit of light.

Also, the Roman definition of "Dawn" may not have been the same one as ours.

In the second one, Mark never says that they didn't tell anyone, only that they fled. Again, the detail just isn't in Mark.


I honestly don't see what you are referencing in the third one. Can you possibly explain? And use one of the other two verses, not the Mark reference, since there's a good chance Mark 16 9-20 were written in the second century by someone other than John Mark.

 

[Truronian]

In the second one, Mark never says that they didn't tell anyone, only that they fled. Again, the detail just isn't in Mark.

Trembling and bewildered, the women went out and fled from the tomb. They said nothing to anyone, because they were afraid.

 

[GhostWriter16]

They probably said something later on. I really don't think this is a real contradiction.

 

[Truronian]

They probably said something later on. I really don't think this is a real contradiction.

It says they told no-one. It's about as obvious a contradiction as they come.

By all means ignore it, but realise that is what you're are doing.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

What? Are you saying you just claimed: no contradictions, without having looked into it? How did you know there were no contradictions then? How did you know the information is accurate? I can tell you that I'd be all over that one if I was a Christian person. this is the thing I'm basing my life on so I'd damn well research the hell out of it before laying literally my life on the line.

I was expecting to be refuted easily. I just started looking into it just now and found these. I reasoned, well, when you place as much faith into this as Christians do, surely they have the answers ready because surely they'd have found the same claims of contradiction.

I have no idea about any of them. I'm not buying into the resurrection myth, so where is my stake in looking through them? My stake in this is asking you: have you looked into these then?

Then you reply with stuff that a bible passage look-up refutes:

16:8 Trembling and bewildered, the women went out and fled from the tomb. They said nothing to anyone, because they were afraid.

24:9-10 When they came back from the tomb, they told all these things to the Eleven and to all the others. 10 It was Mary Magdalene, Joanna, Mary the mother of James, and the others with them who told this to the apostles.