Does (The Christian) God have Limited Power?

[Rashiminos]

Why should infinite power imply that something always existed?

Why should it not?

 

[Whiskey_Lord]

Creation itself testifies to a Creator. To deny one, you must convince yourself. Thus Atheism is unnatural. Thus it is wrong.

When hundreds of people start giving their lives for what they personally saw in the Thor trailer, I'll give it some credence.

These are both appeals to sentimentalism, essentially. The beauty of nature does not prove a creator, and neither does fanatical devotion to the idea of one.

 

[Perfection]

@Ajidica- Give me the names of at least 10 atheists before Origin of Species was written.

I think it will be quite a challenge.

What does that have to do with anything?

 

[Seon]

Creation itself testifies to a Creator. To deny one, you must convince yourself. Thus Atheism is unnatural. Thus it is wrong.

I can equally look at myself and state that, since I am alive, Universe could have arisen naturally and without any outside interference, and also conclude that complex life can be evolved by natural processes from simple life.

My logic means exactly squat, at least to you, but so is yours.

 

[GhostWriter16]

These are both appeals to sentimentalism, essentially. The beauty of nature does not prove a creator, and neither does fanatical devotion to the idea of one.

People claimed to have seen Christ rise from the Dead, 500 people to be precise, and many of these people died for that belief. Died. Would you die for an idea you knew to be false?

What does that have to do with anything?

If you can't, it proves that the belief in a Creator is the natural conclusion people come too. This alone means its probably true.

 

[Ajidica]

@Ajidica- Give me the names of at least 10 atheists before Origin of Species was written.

I think it will be quite a challenge.

Not a challenge
1. Percy Bysshe Shelly
2. William Trenwith
3. Georges Clemenceau
4. Gilbert Romme
5. William Thompson
6. Giuseppe Garibaldi
7. Edward Aveling
8. Charles Bradlaugh
9. John Morley, 1st Viscount Morley of Blackburn
10. Edvard Brandes
11. Karl Marx
And that is just from the wikipedia list on famous athiest politicians, there are 7 other groupings. I'm also pretty sure the neo-platonists were athiests and they were around way before Darwin.
EDIT: from Brian's better list. All of these people were dead before Origens of Species:
Socrates (469 - 399)
Epicurus (341 - 270)
Lucretius (99 - 55)


17th Century

Voltaire (1694 - 1791)


18th Century

Hume, David (1711 - 1776)
Diderot, Denis (1713 - 1784)
Smith, Adam (1723 - 1790)
Paine, Thomas (1737 - 1809)
Bentham, Jeremy (1748 - 1832)
Wollstonecraft, Mary (1759 - 1797)
Shelly, Percy Bysshe (1792 - 1822)

People claimed to have seen Christ rise from the Dead,

I was under the impression that nobody saw him and that when Mary MAgdalene went to pay their respects, the tomb was open.

 

[Perfection]

Why should it not?

If someone says something implies something. I don't think it's out of bounds to ask why.

As for why not, I'm not exactly sure what the term "infinite power" means (for instance, let's say God's only power is to draw lines on pieces of paper, since there are infinite ways one can do that does that mean good has infinite powers?).

 

[Seon]

People claimed to have seen Christ rise from the Dead, 500 people to be precise, and many of these people died for that belief. Died. Would you die for an idea you knew to be false?

Yea, if they believed it was the right thing.

 

[Whiskey_Lord]

People claimed to have seen Christ rise from the Dead, 500 people to be precise, and many of these people died for that belief. Died. Would you die for an idea you knew to be false?

It's too bad no one except the Bible authors ever wrote about this. It would be much more credible if we had support from an additional source, such as a Roman historian. I also do not doubt people's belief. About a year ago, I would have died for my belief in Christ, but that does not prove anything about Christ's divinity or even his existence.

If you can't, it proves that the belief in a Creator is the natural conclusion people come too. This alone means its probably true.

No, it shows that people are pattern-seeking creatures, and that they often come to the wrong assumptions based on lack of knowledge about the mechanics of what they observe.

 

[Whiskey_Lord]

EDIT: Double post. Sorry.

 

[GhostWriter16]

@Seon- Are you really trying to tell me 500 people hallucinated the same thing at the same time? Seriously?

 

[Perfection]

If you can't, it proves that the belief in a Creator is the natural conclusion people come too. This alone means its probably true.

That's a pretty weak argument. People have concluded quite naturally that the world is flat or that the sun revolves around the Earth.

 

[Ajidica]

@Seon- Are you really trying to tell me 500 people hallucinated the same thing at the same time? Seriously?

Please give us the passage that states 500 people saw Christ get ressurected. My perusal of wikipedia, along with my other knowledge, suggestes that nobody saw it, only that it was revealed to a few women.

 

[Seon]

@Dom: 500 people may not hallucinate, but some people may exaggerate.

And some people might lie.

 

[Perfection]

Please give us the passage that states 500 people saw Christ get ressurected. My perusal of wikipedia, along with my other knowledge, suggestes that nobody saw it, only that it was revealed to a few women.

I believe he's referring to post-resurrection Jesus sightings.

A couple simple explanations might be that the number of witnesses was incorrect, or that the witnesses were tricked.

 

[_random_]

Please give us the passage that states 500 people saw Christ get ressurected. My perusal of wikipedia, along with my other knowledge, suggestes that nobody saw it, only that it was revealed to a few women.

1 Corinthians 15:6. Emmaus and all the Apostles in particular are listed as seeing the resurrected Christ in the Gospels.

 

[GhostWriter16]

It's too bad no one except the Bible authors ever wrote about this. It would be much more credible if we had support from an additional source, such as a Roman historian. I also do not doubt people's belief. About a year ago, I would have died for my belief in Christ, but that does not prove anything about Christ's divinity or even his existence.

True, but people claimed they SAW HIM RISE and then they died for that belief.

http://www.leaderu.com/everystudent/easter/articles/josh2.html

@Seon- Seriously, that's your argument? Would you DIE for something you knew was false? If so, you belong in an insane asylum, and would not represent the majority of people or even a sizable minority.

As for exaggeration, how do you exaggerate a resurrection? Either its true or it ain't.

 

[Brian Shanahan]

@Ajidica- Give me the names of at least 10 atheists before Origin of Species was written.

I think it will be quite a challenge.

Let us see here (look 'em up yourself it'll be an education):
A list for your perusal and delight. And please remember that there would be a lot of people who were in actual fact atheists but were sensible enough to keep it private, as they were intelligent enough not to die for their beliefs.

There are a lot of people who certainly kept very quiet or modelled their views in such a way at to be not incompatible with atheism, examples including da Vinci, and Jefferson, and if you look at Pantheism critically Spinoza too.

 

[Seon]

@random: is that 500 people?

 

[Ajidica]

1 Corinthians 15:6. Emmaus and all the Apostles in particular are listed as seeing the resurrected Christ in the Gospels.

So not 500, but 13.

True, but people claimed they SAW HIM RISE and then they died for that belief.

http://www.leaderu.com/everystudent/easter/articles/josh2.html

I'm not hunting through that article.
Anyhow, are you referring to the people who saw him rise from the dead on Easter or people who later had visions of Christ rising from the dead?