Dumpster Fire Discussions

Hey hey hey! Anyone seen old droppy dog face Ed “Mister Liberty” Snowden since late February? He must still be out there pushing his message of beware of all powerful governments yada yada, right? Remember when he told us all to take a courageous stand? I mean who among us would have imagined that he’d just disappear after all what’s gone on?
 
NVM

@Cloud_Strife I had a long reply and then decided, it was not likely lead to a worthwhile conversation. Good luck in all your endeavors to improve your life. :)

My answer to your question is yes.

So when did you become a human being

edit:

you know, trans people constantly have their identity, their sense of self doubted, questioned and interrogated, they constantly are viewed as objects to gawk at, the subject of humiliating jokes and exotic and erotic adornments with which cis people covet.

I think it'd be really cool if a mod didn't decide that the appropiate response to an entire demographic of people was to "just ask questions" about whether they actually exist or whether they're inherently deluded or wrong about themselves

But that's just me and maybe i'm built differently
 
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So when did you become a human being
If you go strictly by the pro-lifers, then 1984. What’s ironic is that I like to take it slow, yet I was faster than 90,000,000 others. But I’m also good at directions, so that could have made up the gap.

Legally? Not sure. I don’t know what the law was back then and I’mma chalk that up to being an illiterate fetus who did not frequent the law library.

I have since remedied the situation.
 
It is pretty simple: When does a trans woman become a woman? Does it happen when he decides the he is really a she? Does it happen upon public declaration? Does it happen after 1 day or 1 month of hormones? Does it happen with bottom surgery? At some other time? Are people born trans?

If the question is, is a trans woman a woman, then at some point that event happens. If I were to declare my self a trans woman tomorrow, in your eyes, would I be a woman?
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Jesus dude. We're real people, not neat little abstract thought experiments. Do you talk about everybody like this?

Over the past year or so, I've done a pretty massive amount of gender-related introspection while sorting out some trans imposter syndrome (sorted) and female imposter syndrome (in progress), and it's included pretty much all of BJ's abstract thought experiments. While I'm now clear that I've always been a woman (and always been a trans woman) because I know it in my head, the IOC is going to disagree because I still have N ppm of Testosterone in my bloodstream, the NCAA is going to disagree because I haven't been on HRT long enough, the state of NH is going to disagree because I don't have a letter from a medical professional stating so, my brother-in-law is going to disagree because I have male crotch equipment, and my ex-son-in-law is going to disagree because he's an *******.

Only one of those matters to me directly, and is relatively easily sorted. I am wondering if I'll get any pushback from IDPA or USPSA (target pistol competition ruling bodies) when I change my registration from M to F - I'm nowhere near good enough to be pushing any cis women shooters off the medalist podium, but there is certainly a much higher percentage of social conservatives in competitive pistol shooting vs collegiate sports in general or women's swimming in particular.

But as far as I know, there aren't any transmasc folk turning in medals they've won in women's-only competitions prior to transitioning, either. My overall (US-specific) compromise would be that up to and in high school it's simply social transitioning status and perhaps "letter from a medical professional stating individual's gender", NCAA can say X months of medically-supervised HRT (with blood test validation if in doubt), and the IOC and professional sports can have their T-ppm blood tests. High school and NCAA restrictions in some red states dependent upon getting rid of restrictions on gender-related medical assistance to minors ("here's my letter" "okay here's the arrest warrants for your parents and the medical professional that signed it"), but that one is a Gordian knot that desperately needs cutting.
 
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Over the past year or so, I've done a pretty massive amount of gender-related introspection while sorting out some trans imposter syndrome (sorted) and female imposter syndrome (in progress), and it's included pretty much all of BJ's abstract thought experiments. While I'm now clear that I've always been a woman (and always been a trans woman) because I know it in my head, the IOC is going to disagree because I still have N ppm of Testosterone in my bloodstream, the NCAA is going to disagree because I haven't been on HRT long enough, the state of NH is going to disagree because I don't have a letter from a medical professional stating so, my brother-in-law is going to disagree because I have male crotch equipment, and my ex-son-in-law is going to disagree because he's an *******.

Only one of those matters to me directly, and is relatively easily sorted. I am wondering if I'll get any pushback from IDPA or USPSA (target pistol competition ruling bodies) when I change my registration from M to F - I'm nowhere near good enough to be pushing any cis women shooters off the medalist podium, but there is certainly a much higher percentage of social conservatives in competitive pistol shooting vs collegiate sports in general or women's swimming in particular.

But as far as I know, there aren't any transmasc folk turning in medals they've won in women's-only competitions prior to transitioning, either. My overall (US-specific) compromise would be that up to and in high school it's simply social transitioning status and perhaps "letter from a medical professional stating individual's gender", NCAA can say X months of medically-supervised HRT (with blood test validation if in doubt), and the IOC and professional sports can have their T-ppm blood tests. High school and NCAA restrictions in some red states dependent upon getting rid of restrictions on gender-related medical assistance to minors ("here's my letter" "okay here's the arrest warrants for your parents and the medical professional that signed it"), but that one is a Gordian knot that desperately needs cutting.

Not that I'm in any position to comment but -

There is the Messi issue.

Messi was given a medical exemption to have human growth hormone as a teen. He's still a shortarse, but nothing like he would have been. In 99.9% of cases book closed. However he then went on to become the most successful sportsman on the planet. Messi's injections were medically justified, no question. But the lasting advantage that gave him has complicated his legacy. How does decades of testosterone impact elite level competition, and how do we create an even playing field.

Totes in the side of be-who-you-are here, but elite sports produces weird edge cases.

It is a truism that hard cases make bad laws, but in the case of elite sports their laws will trickle down. Or up. Either way it looks like a shitshow to me.
 
Not that I'm in any position to comment but -

There is the Messi issue.

Messi was given a medical exemption to have human growth hormone as a teen. He's still a shortarse, but nothing like he would have been. In 99.9% of cases book closed. However he then went on to become the most successful sportsman on the planet. Messi's injections were medically justified, no question. But the lasting advantage that gave him has complicated his legacy. How does decades of testosterone impact elite level competition, and how do we create an even playing field.

Totes in the side of be-who-you-are here, but elite sports produces weird edge cases.

It is a truism that hard cases make bad laws, but in the case of elite sports their laws will trickle down. Or up. Either way it looks like a ****show to me.

Medical justification, yeah. I wonder if all the folks objecting to puberty-blockers would use the same objections to HGH at 10 years old for him. That aside, anyone thinking Messi is okay to compete but trans women (who've been on HRT for at least a year or two) are not okay to compete... well, back to Dunning-Kruger.
 
I'm not quite sure how to apply it to this conversation, but I was thinking about weight classes in the combat sports and whether they'd be of any use in other individual sports, or even in team sports. We do separate children by age, and there are leagues for people over a certain age. In combat sports, we separate athletes by size, because size is such an advantage and we want the smaller athletes to be able to compete. We use weight, or mass, rather than height. I'm not sure there's a reason not to use height, especially in a sport where height might matter. Would it make any sense to group swimmers by height, for example?

I'm also thinking of the high school girls (I think there were two) who won state wrestling championships in the last few years, competing against boys. iirc, the girls were allowed to compete with the boys because there wasn't an organized girls' competition. In wrestling, your weight class is important, because size is a natural advantage that we choose to account for artificially in order to allow smaller people to compete*. So these two girls were allowed to compete with boys and they won. I don't know how many girls overall were competing against the boys, but it couldn't have been many, because if there had been a lot they would have just created a girls bracket. So it's hard to say that these two happen to be among a tiny minority of high school girls who'd be capable of competing against boys. Even moreso, these two made the news because they didn't just compete against the boys, they won their state championships. So maybe there are lots of girls who'd be capable of competing with boys; we can't really know because we haven't really let them try.

I dunno, just thinking out loud.


* Although in some sports, like jiu-jitsu, open-weight competitions still exist, and the smaller athletes do sometimes win. I'm thinking of 5'4" Mackenzie Dern vs. 6'2" Gabrielle Garcia. Of course this instance of an athlete with such a dramatic size disadvantage winning sticks in the mind precisely because it's so unusual, but like I say, open-weight events do still exist, and not just as exhibitions.
 
It is a truism that hard cases make bad laws, but in the case of elite sports their laws will trickle down.

This is the problem with the uniformity of law ideology.

In my opinion, rules and regulations developed for one elite sport in one context, USA or FIFA or
Olympics etc to deal with issues there ought not to be thoughtlessly applied outside of that context.
 
This is the problem with the uniformity of law ideology.

In my opinion, rules and regulations developed for one elite sport in one context, USA or FIFA or
Olympics etc to deal with issues there ought not to be thoughtlessly applied outside of that context.

Everyone plays by the same rules. Or laws if you're playing cricket. If you're making a quarter million a week or having a kickaboout in the park everyone is playing by the same rulebook, everyone is playing the same game.

How would the situation be improved by having different sets of rules/ laws for different levels of the game?
 
Whats that about a competitive advantage? Bigots for fairness! Are you denying their trans'ness'? Trans call themselves trans and you use the word quite a bit.
I don't know what you mean by any of this, notwithstanding that... I think @Cloud_Strife 's repeated, very simple, very straightforward question, specifically, "cool but are trans women women?", seems like a suitable response. I'll add that I think all the cryptic, esoteric, evasive, philosophical, abstract, etc., responses that are being given in reply to the question, are a pretty good illustration of my earlier point.

Not necessarily "one size fits all"... but... I guess "filibuster"... feels like the right word in this context.
 
Sometimes it's just "come and see."

Doesn't seem like the people getting asked the questions in the last few pages are really the ones with the most to say*. Does it? That seems the right order of things.

*Preponderance... not absolute.
 
Transwomen are women but biologically they’re not. Everyone knows this and I don’t think anyone has disputed this point.

That leaves us with the question: is the biological difference between transwomen and cisgender women significant enough to bar transwomen from competing in the sport? (I think this would vary depending on the sport)

It’s not reasonable to accuse people of being transphobic for thinking these biological differences are significant and to be skeptical that hormones would change that. And maybe they’re wrong but this is pretty different from issues unrelated to biology like bathrooms.

I do agree that bans on transwomen in sports on a state level are most likely motivated by transphobia, I think politics should stay out of it and leave it up to sports organizations.

Birdjaguar’s point made a lot of sense, that if you’re going to insist transwomen must be allowed into women’s sports because they are women, then at what point are they women and what does it mean to be a woman?
 
When it comes to sports, I think there are grades of concerns that are then confounded by transphobia. Figuring out someone's concern is part of unmasking the transphobia (and its intensity). And balancing against transphobia will be a sense of 'fairness' to people anyone disadvantaged by changes as well as a latent concern about people who will abuse changes.

Sports are weird. We all acknowledge that there's 'natural' advantage (hence weight classes in wrestling). But we also want heart and dedication to be key factors in success. We're rooting for the people who started when they were five years old and gave up alcohol and relationships in favour of daily practice. (And yet, lol, we want people to have healthy personal lives and yet will support the above). The above is then balanced against the evidence of what biological factors are actually at play (and honestly, we're in the "four minute miles are impossible!" stages of this discussion).

1) people claiming TG status to compete at an advantage, and gatekeepers being unable to keep them out. The most shameless sociopath wins.

2) people claiming TG status but delaying transition in order to compete at an advantage.

3) biological heritage creating an advantage despite transition efforts that cannot be 'outcompeted' by dedication and effort.

Now, with '3', it's all just variants on a theme. As a 'naturally' stocky person, I have no chance at professional swimming. Even if I was the 'heart and dedication' guy, I'd never be anywhere near competitive. I'm just not built that way. '3' is just that story again, just (maybe) more obviously. As pointed out previously, the same people trying to keep control over women's sports are the same people who'd not let someone transition early enough to make a difference. They're aggravating their own dilemma.

'2' is interesting, and my suspicion is that it's where the majority of the actual battle will be fought as the years of discussion turn into decades of discussion. Sadly, there are gatekeepers needed in any sporting event, which means that a 'minimum level' of transition effort would be necessary if there was too much of a latent advantage created by not doing so. In real life, subtracting a negative isn't the same thing as adding a positive (even if it's mathematically similar). But, if some hormone creates advantage, then we have a weird situation where we tolerate it if it's 'natural' but won't if it's "artificial". Sporting success is dominated by genetics, and we're just figuring that out.

'1' is troublesome because the number of people with sociopathic tendencies will be a significant percentage of the total number of people who will try to test any new rules creates. It's just simply a numbers game, but it's a real one.


*There's a weird set of intuitions here, and every individual will struggle with their own heuristics. There's a weird thing where you can 'count victims' and then assigning a relative suffering to each victim of a policy change. People who're concerned about my 3 points creating advantage will count victims. On the one hand, you have a person who'll never be able to compete successfully if the rules aren't changed (so .... "the same status as me" if you're callous or trying to be neutral) and if the rules are changed, then you have three victims (gold becomes silver, silver becomes bronze, and bronze becomes a participation trophy). And then when we do privilege-stacking (whose math is inscrutible), scenario 3 means that someone who's life is rough has advantage over people who're probably lucky people. And in scenario 2 and 1, we have someone behaving in anti-social ways in order to dominate over people who've put their heart into the thing.

- The '3 victim' scenario require an 'unfair advantage' that somehow resonates in someone's head when they're thinking about it. We're gonna be yelling about that factor for awhile, I think.
 
Everyone plays by the same rules. Or laws if you're playing cricket. If you're making a quarter million a week or having a kickaboout in the park everyone is playing by the same rulebook, everyone is playing the same game.

How would the situation be improved by having different sets of rules/ laws for different levels of the game?

Two key benefits of having diversity of rules are democracy and innovation.

By the way, there are already multiple versions of cricket.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forms...,The most obvious difference is that... More

I might equally say.

English is widely spoken. Perhaps it should be better standardised so that everyone can speak it.
After all what are the benefits in having other people speak other languages, it just complicates things.
 
English is widely spoken. Perhaps it should be better standardised so that everyone can speak it.
Of course I agree, but we need to recognize that the unintelligible accents applied by natives of the British Isles should be banned forthwith. And for those English speakers from India, they need to be required to slow way down whenever they speak. Perhaps a contraption could be applied to their mouths to help them speak more slowly. :mischief:
 
When it comes to sports, I think there are grades of concerns that are then confounded by transphobia. Figuring out someone's concern is part of unmasking the transphobia (and its intensity). And balancing against transphobia will be a sense of 'fairness' to people anyone disadvantaged by changes as well as a latent concern about people who will abuse changes.

Sports are weird. We all acknowledge that there's 'natural' advantage (hence weight classes in wrestling). But we also want heart and dedication to be key factors in success. We're rooting for the people who started when they were five years old and gave up alcohol and relationships in favour of daily practice. (And yet, lol, we want people to have healthy personal lives and yet will support the above). The above is then balanced against the evidence of what biological factors are actually at play (and honestly, we're in the "four minute miles are impossible!" stages of this discussion).

1) people claiming TG status to compete at an advantage, and gatekeepers being unable to keep them out. The most shameless sociopath wins.

2) people claiming TG status but delaying transition in order to compete at an advantage.

3) biological heritage creating an advantage despite transition efforts that cannot be 'outcompeted' by dedication and effort.

Now, with '3', it's all just variants on a theme. As a 'naturally' stocky person, I have no chance at professional swimming. Even if I was the 'heart and dedication' guy, I'd never be anywhere near competitive. I'm just not built that way. '3' is just that story again, just (maybe) more obviously. As pointed out previously, the same people trying to keep control over women's sports are the same people who'd not let someone transition early enough to make a difference. They're aggravating their own dilemma.

'2' is interesting, and my suspicion is that it's where the majority of the actual battle will be fought as the years of discussion turn into decades of discussion. Sadly, there are gatekeepers needed in any sporting event, which means that a 'minimum level' of transition effort would be necessary if there was too much of a latent advantage created by not doing so. In real life, subtracting a negative isn't the same thing as adding a positive (even if it's mathematically similar). But, if some hormone creates advantage, then we have a weird situation where we tolerate it if it's 'natural' but won't if it's "artificial". Sporting success is dominated by genetics, and we're just figuring that out.

'1' is troublesome because the number of people with sociopathic tendencies will be a significant percentage of the total number of people who will try to test any new rules creates. It's just simply a numbers game, but it's a real one.


*There's a weird set of intuitions here, and every individual will struggle with their own heuristics. There's a weird thing where you can 'count victims' and then assigning a relative suffering to each victim of a policy change. People who're concerned about my 3 points creating advantage will count victims. On the one hand, you have a person who'll never be able to compete successfully if the rules aren't changed (so .... "the same status as me" if you're callous or trying to be neutral) and if the rules are changed, then you have three victims (gold becomes silver, silver becomes bronze, and bronze becomes a participation trophy). And then when we do privilege-stacking (whose math is inscrutible), scenario 3 means that someone who's life is rough has advantage over people who're probably lucky people. And in scenario 2 and 1, we have someone behaving in anti-social ways in order to dominate over people who've put their heart into the thing.

- The '3 victim' scenario require an 'unfair advantage' that somehow resonates in someone's head when they're thinking about it. We're gonna be yelling about that factor for awhile, I think.

I really don’t consider the first two to be significant problems, I doubt someone would transition just to excel at sports and if they had to go through the same transitioning as other transwomen who were allowed to compete then what does it matter?

And it doesn’t seem like many people are arguing against a certain level of gate keeping when it comes to the stage of someone’s transition and competing in the women’s category, or maybe there are.

I think the big issue is the #3 category and if transitioning removed the biological advantage in the given sport.
 
Personally I don't like the men/women pools divide because it erases the existence of nonbinary people, and applies a cisnormative framework for transition which is not universal

'Transwomen are women' erases trans people. I suppose that is the goal if I were trans, just simple, basic acceptance as another face in the crowd. Most people agree... except when it comes to sports. If the pool is open it'll be the same people competing, so once we create categories for other people to compete we're looking at fairness. Do transmen get to compete against women now?

I don't know what you mean by any of this, notwithstanding that... I think @Cloud_Strife 's repeated, very simple, very straightforward question, specifically, "cool but are trans women women?", seems like a suitable response. I'll add that I think all the cryptic, esoteric, evasive, philosophical, abstract, etc., responses that are being given in reply to the question, are a pretty good illustration of my earlier point.

Not necessarily "one size fits all"... but... I guess "filibuster"... feels like the right word in this context.

If the issue is fairness and competitive advantage then it aint bigotry and arguing transwomen are women denies the existence of trans people. Transwomen are not women, they are transwomen. Transmen are not men, they are transmen. Are we celebrating diversity or hiding from it?
 
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