Egypt - Cleopatra Thread

[GenyaArikado]

To be fair she did what she could. Between the civil wars for the throne, several epidemies, poor Nile floods and the Romans breathing down her neck id say she held up relatively good.

 

[King William I]

I think she was a good leader with the unfortunate luck of ruling in the natural decline of her dynasty

 

[Spartan_X]

Well, there wasn't much she could do, Egypt was a vassal state to Rome by the time of Cleopatra's reign. After Marcus Antonius lost the battle against Octavian and he and Cleo committed Suicide, Egypt was fully annexed by the empire

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

She was presumably chosen for 2 reasons: She is an iconic figurehead (though debatable whether she deserved it) and they can make for a unique and interesting gameplay experience around her that differs from old iterations of Egypt.

 

[Ezumiyr]

Not sure what else to call the fact that Egypt was annexed into the Roman Empire. Even if she did not cause it she was not up to the task of ensuring Egypt's continued independence.

Egypt had a unique status. It was not officially part of the Empire, but a personnal territory of the Emperor (who had the title of Pharaoh) - and this until the reforms of Domitianus, if I remember well.

In civ it would be of course a vassal state, but we shouldn't read history according to Civ gameplay.
Egypt remained much more than a simple province until the end of the empire.

Also, couldn't we say that Alexander lead the Greeks to their demise ? And Napoléon for France ? What about Moctezuma II ? Pachacuti ? Shaka Zulu ?

 

[Art Grin]

I was wondering if maybe Egypt's second UU or their UI could be directly related to Cleopatra like the Rough Riders are to Teddy Roosevelt.
An elephant UU would make sense since the Ptolemies employed them quite often but would clash with Carthage since it's their trademark UU.
Two other UU that would fit with Cleopatra could be the Galatian Mercenaries or a Machimoi Phalanx.
Would be interesting if we'd get to see some UU from the Ptolemaic or maybe even later eras.

 

[Zaarin]

If you think Cleopatra caused the collapse of Egypt your sorely mistaking. She seduced Julius Ceaser and convinced him not to annex Egypt. She was incredibly intelligent (able to speak nine languages I believe) and definitely deserving of the role as a leader in a civ game. Plus her son was technically the last Pharaoh of Egypt not her. And it is actually only a popular myth that she killed herself. Historians are unsure whether she was assassinated or did herself in.

Five languages, actually, which is still certainly impressive. No one's arguing that she wasn't intelligent or cunning or that she didn't make the best of her circumstances, and if she came from some obscure civilization that we didn't know much about she might even be an ideal choice. But there are 4000 years of Egyptian history to choose from, and there are certainly many far more deserving pharaohs--including female pharaohs--that could have been chosen.

 

[sukritact]

Egypt had a unique status. It was not officially part of the Empire, but a personnal territory of the Emperor (who had the title of Pharaoh) - and this until the reforms of Domitianus, if I remember well.

This is only because Octavian wanted the rich region as a personal fief and nothing to do with Cleopatra herself. She wasn't even able to secure clemency for herself or her son (her other children survived, but they were still paraded in chains carrying an effigy of their dead mother as part of Octavian's Triumph). Both men she played (Marcus Antonius and Julius Caesar) were dead, with her having no influence over Octavian, who ultimately was the power over the empire. Egypt's special status is no result of Cleopatra's diplomatic skill.

Also, couldn't we say that Alexander lead the Greeks to their demise ? And Napoléon for France ? What about Moctezuma II ? Pachacuti ? Shaka Zulu ?

They left legacies greater than 'was very pretty' and 'was able to seduce important men'. Alexander left a us Hellenised world (the Ptolemies are a prime example of this), Napoleon is giving is name to an entire era in Civ VI which should say enough about him. Wrong Mocteczuma. Civ V at least, features Mocteczuma I who united the empire (Mocteczuma II would be a bad choice indeed). Pachacuti left a perfectly functional empire after a great reign of expansion, so I don't know what you mean in reference to him. Shaka Zulu is perhaps the most dubious, but at least is known for reforming society and warfare among the Zulu and defeating the British in a battle.

Five languages, actually, which is still certainly impressive. No one's arguing that she wasn't intelligent or cunning or that she didn't make the best of her circumstances, and if she came from some obscure civilization that we didn't know much about she might even be an ideal choice. But there are 4000 years of Egyptian history to choose from, and there are certainly many far more deserving pharaohs--including female pharaohs--that could have been chosen.

Agreed, she wasn't an incapable ruler, just one who ruled in an extremely trying crisis. But there are much better choices, even if one wanted to feature a woman.

 

[GenyaArikado]

She left herself as Legacy.

Stop trying to make Hatshepsut happen, she is not gonna happen.

 

[sukritact]

Stop trying to make Hatshepsut happen, she is not gonna happen.

*Mods her in*

I don't think she will; it's too late for anything of this magnitude to change. Doesn't mean I have to think Cleopatra is a good choice, and it doesn't mean I can't express my opinions.

 

[Zaarin]

She left herself as Legacy.

Stop trying to make Hatshepsut happen, she is not gonna happen.

No one expects them to change a leader at this late date, but that doesn't change the fact that their selection was dubious and one many of us are dissatisfied with. I certainly have every intention of changing her name to Hatshepsut as soon as I can figure out the modding tools--or as soon as someone else does.

I've stated before that I'm not in favor of multiple leaders per civ, but if they create an alternate DLC leader for Egypt--Akhenaten, Ramesses, Thutmoses, Narmer, Hatshepsut, or anyone but Tutankhamun really--I would buy it in a heartbeat.

 

[JFD]

*Mods her in*

I don't think she will; it's too late for anything of this magnitude to change. Doesn't mean I have to think Cleopatra is a good choice, and it doesn't mean I can't express my opinions.

*denounces*

 

[GenyaArikado]

*Mods her in*

I don't think she will; it's too late for anything of this magnitude to change. Doesn't mean I have to think Cleopatra is a good choice, and it doesn't mean I can't express my opinions.

You can mod her in. She still isnt happening. She has never happened. Civ4 'swas Nefertiti with Hatshepsut name.

Good, i can also express i think your opinion is crappy then #ExpressYourself #IDontGoForSecondBestBaby

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[Westwall]

If they make Cleopatra look Egyptian instead of Greek, changing her to Hatshepsut will be as easy as changing her name.

 

[GenyaArikado]

The cool thing about Hatshepsut visually was her crossdressing. You can rename her but she'll still be cleopatra.

 

[Westwall]

Well they left a lot of those details out of her depiction in Civ 4.

Including her chin ornament.

 

[GenyaArikado]

And thats why i say that one is a missnamed Nefertiti

 

[Zaarin]

The cool thing about Hatshepsut visually was her crossdressing. You can rename her but she'll still be cleopatra.

There are a few depictions of Hatshepsut dressed as a male pharaoh in ceremonial contexts, but there are also many depictions of her dressed as a queen but still referred to as pharaoh. She may have sometimes dressed as a man, but there's enough evidence to believe that most of the time she dressed in the ordinary attire of a women of the courts. If Cleopatra looks Egyptian--and I'm almost positive they will make her look Egyptian--then there really will be no issue modding her name to Hatshepsut with no obstructions to immersion except for the brief moment she introduces herself as "Cleopatra"--and her probable seductive Theodora-esque pose.

 

[poom3619]

*Mods her in*

I don't think she will; it's too late for anything of this magnitude to change. Doesn't mean I have to think Cleopatra is a good choice, and it doesn't mean I can't express my opinions.

I feel like there's chance modded Hatshepsut may actually be a better civ than Firaxis' Cleopatra, without the unfair advantage of 3D animate leaderscene. While I know someone will eventually mod it in, this comment make me feel far more confident about it

It will happen! Make it happen!

 

[Novu]

There are a few depictions of Hatshepsut dressed as a male pharaoh in ceremonial contexts, but there are also many depictions of her dressed as a queen but still referred to as pharaoh. She may have sometimes dressed as a man, but there's enough evidence to believe that most of the time she dressed in the ordinary attire of a women of the courts. If Cleopatra looks Egyptian--and I'm almost positive they will make her look Egyptian--then there really will be no issue modding her name to Hatshepsut with no obstructions to immersion except for the brief moment she introduces herself as "Cleopatra"--and her probable seductive Theodora-esque pose.

I have a theory that the leader screens will be highly stylized based on the art we have seen so far having a lot in common with Civilization Online.

Leaders from left to right: Montezuma, Qin Shi Huang, Caesar Augustus, and Cleopatra

Spoiler :

There are certain advantages to stylized models mainly that Civilization Online gave players access to a 3D character creator tool to modify the leader models without the need for mods.

The result is even player created civilizations would have easy to import 3D leader scenes which would be a first for any civ game.