Election 2024 Part III: Out with the old!

[Gori the Grey]

The academic left might be partly at fault, but there are other agents.

 

[Farm Boy]

Do you think Musk actually regrets his loss buying Twitter? Maybe he just got all the idiots to give him a tax write off.

 

[Fippy]

Musk and Trump both run a person cult..
which let's be honest is pretty normal these days.

Democrats would have needed an A+ candidate.
There are all kinds of fancy words & theories, but ultimately it's all social media power.
Which is very dangerous indeed..

 

[Senethro]

Couldn't ya have found an example from any of the past 5 decades?

Sorta the point.

And you've given even less examples than that.

I thought it a little strange that you couldn't even manage the white lie of addressing other forms of structural oppression just a little bit later.

 

[Gorbles]

Couldn't ya have found an example from any of the past 5 decades?

Sorta the point.

"academic wokists causing consequences is bad and should be criticised, but somebody literally getting killed having a suppressing effect on further organising should be ignored, and it's actually Your Fault nobody else materialised to get shot"

 

[Voidwalkin]

"academic wokists causing consequences is bad and should be criticised, but somebody literally getting killed having a suppressing effect on further organising should be ignored, and it's actually Your Fault nobody else materialised to get shot"

Didn't frighten the organizers of the 1920s motivated by classical leftist thinking. They got shot with regularity, and often organized anyway.

It's as if something changed that reoriented the priority of the left away from organization. Huh.

And you've given even less examples than that.

I thought it a little strange that you couldn't even manage the white lie of addressing other forms of structural oppression just a little bit later.

Scroll through whatever social media site you prefer and record a ratio of posts made containing the word organization to not.

Other forms of oppression were already addressed as existing in an ideological framework that maintains the current exploitative structure, despite your best efforts.

 

[Gorbles]

Didn't frighten the organizers of the 1920s motivated by classical leftist thinking. They got shot with regularity, and often organized anyway.

It's as if something changed that reoriented the priority of the left away from organization. Huh.

Plenty of people still get shot at now. Plenty of leftists still organise now, despite the punitive measures employed to prevent or otherwise break them up. Maybe you're in too much of a bubble to appreciate efforts on the ground.

I'm just calling out the dissonance between criticising people for not bringing examples while failing to recognise the impact of state violence on organising. Cherrypicking examples (without actually, y'know, contextualising them) doesn't really get you anywhere (again, with the dissonance, because you rejected Lexi's for being too far in the past and here you are going back to the 1920s).

 

[Senethro]

Other forms of oppression were already addressed as existing in an ideological framework that maintains the current exploitative structure, despite your best efforts.

Yes, I know. Buddy, you lost and it wasn't even "us" you were fighting with. You're still sore about that loss and still haven't accepted that the capitalists could possibly win, therefore it must have really been traitors to the cause. What a nice lie.

Get over your grudge and accept the decades of setback. Stop seething about how the gays got their marriage or whatever and actually advocate for class informed causes and efforts.

 

[Voidwalkin]

Yes, I know. Buddy, you lost and it wasn't even "us" you were fighting with. You're still sore about that loss and still haven't accepted that the capitalists could possibly win, therefore it must have really been traitors to the cause. What a nice lie.

Get over your grudge and accept the decades of setback. Stop seething about how the gays got their marriage or whatever and actually advocate for class informed causes and efforts.

So yeah, this is pretty much... divorced from reality, I'm afraid.

I will help you to bring it back to reality
A: voted for Harris
B: Harris lost because a more charismatic candidate exploited wedge issues created by the modern left.
C: I lose in the process, because classic leftist goals like strengthening labor are now inseparable in the contemporary mind from every little crusade

When this is pointed out, it's right back to attacks on moral authority of someone pointing out the change in course is strategically inefficient. This is a moral question to you, isn't it, with politics an expression of your morality?

Kinda don't think that will work well for ya. It's a much grimier place than that and you can't meaningfully engage with it without getting covered.

 

[Senethro]

So yeah, this is pretty much... divorced from reality, I'm afraid.

I will help you to bring it back to reality
A: voted for Harris
B: Harris lost because a more charismatic candidate exploited wedge issues created by the modern left.
C: I lose in the process, because classic leftist goals like strengthening labor are now inseparable in the contemporary mind from every little crusade

When this is pointed out, it's right back to attacks on moral authority of someone pointing out the change in course is strategically inefficient. This is a moral question to you, isn't it, with politics an expression of your morality?

Kinda don't think that will work well for ya. It's a much grimier place than that and you can't meaningfully engage with it without getting covered.

Whats divorced from reality is insisting the cure for Patient A is to poison Person B. To build solidarity by abandoning it.

There is no reason to insist on it. It looks like a grudge or just another type of infighting.

The wedge issues? Either you quietly agree with the charismatic candidates position on them, or you are a fool to think they would not be created anyway.

 

[Gorbles]

B: Harris lost because a more charismatic candidate exploited wedge issues created by the modern left.

*bad buzzer noise*

Harris lost because her Democrat platform lost. Because her team sent Clinton to Michigan. Because they accepted the Cheney endorsement. And a hundred other missteps (I'm not even touching on how long Biden tried to stay in the race for). Ignoring all of these faults to blame "the modern left" is nothing but a rationalisation.

C: I lose in the process, because classic leftist goals like strengthening labor are now inseparable in the contemporary mind from every little crusade

Why are classic leftist goals now inseparable from "every little crusade"? Could it be, perhaps, that your own personal lack of faith in said "crusades" is affecting your judgement? Or not?

And to that end, what impact does right-wing messaging on said crusades have on people suspectible to said messaging? Worth a thought, maybe some introspection, maybe.

 

[Voidwalkin]

Whats divorced from reality is insisting the cure for Patient A is to poison Person B. To build solidarity by abandoning it.

There is no reason to insist on it. It looks like a grudge or just another type of infighting.

Maybe you didn't take my point, which I did leave to implication.

Lexicus refers to the killing of Fred Hampton, implying he was killed for his political views, which I don't dispute.

What I imply with my comment is that there is no such slaying in the subsequent decades because there is no meaningful effort to organize, nor reception for it, because the efforts of the left having been redirected elsewhere. This can be observed by the plethora of discussion...well...everywhere...

*bad buzzer noise*

Harris lost because her Democrat platform lost. Because her team sent Clinton to Michigan. Because they accepted the Cheney endorsement. And a hundred other missteps (I'm not even touching on how long Biden tried to stay in the race for). Ignoring all of these faults to blame "the modern left" is nothing but a rationalisation

This is incorrect. She could have campaigned differently and at best got half a point higher. The reason for defeat is obvious: massive shift of men to the right, a process largely spurred by an inability to hear the concerns of a group perceived powerful and therefore of low priority.

Why are classic leftist goals now inseparable from "every little crusade"? Could it be, perhaps, that your own personal lack of faith in said "crusades" is affecting your judgement? Or not?

And to that end, what impact does right-wing messaging on said crusades have on people suspectible to said messaging? Worth a thought, maybe some introspection, maybe.

Because the same people pitch both.

My social media diet is CFC, and occasionally Reddit. My general media diet includes very little further right than the occasional USA Today opinion article at the Cafe where I get my coffee.

The simple truth is that I have observed the modern left and its methods and find them very deeply wanting and wholly unlikely to produce success. Claim to want radical change, while preferring to use traditional identities, is just gonna lead to poor results.

 

[Gorbles]

This is incorrect. She could have campaigned differently and at best got half a point higher. The reason for defeat is obvious: massive shift of men to the right, a process largely spurred by an inability to hear the concerns of a group perceived powerful and therefore of low priority.

This is incorrect. She could've campaigned differently and at best got a billion points higher. Neverhaves and everbeens are poor currency, especially with the benefit of hindsight.

The reason for defeat is obvious to you. If you can't grasp that the personal opinion is not factual evidence then you're not going to be able to convince any worker of the world to unite, nevermind give up other battles that need to be fought alongside class (because they feed into it). That is, of course, if that's even your primary concern, vs. just blaming the "modern left" and leaving all due action there.

Certainly, I think your analysis of men shifting to the right (a tangent in of itself) is an incredibly poor correlation, given that the Democrats also keep moving to the right. Indeed, this is exactly what you're espousing - a rejection of whatever you consider "the modern left" to be.

My social media diet is CFC, and occasionally Reddit. My general media diet includes very little further right than the occasional USA Today opinion article at the Cafe where I get my coffee.

My friend, you have unironically used the word "woke". Regardless of how you came by your opinions, that's what they are.

The simple truth is that I have observed the modern left and its methods and find them very deeply wanting and wholly unlikely to produce success.

Yes, this is a popular conservative opinion. I mean, generalised, it's a popular opinion anyone holds. I too have observed a bunch of different political demographics and have found their methods wanting. How do we therefore determine validity, or any kind of objective lesson for US politics in future elections?

 

[Senethro]

Maybe you didn't take my point, which I did leave to implication.

Lexicus refers to the killing of Fred Hampton, implying he was killed for his political views, which I don't dispute.

What I imply with my comment is that there is no such slaying in the subsequent decades because there is no meaningful effort to organize, nor reception for it, because the efforts of the left having been redirected elsewhere. This can be observed by the plethora of discussion...well...everywhere...

No, really, I understand you, I just wholly disagree with you. The capitalists won to such an extent that to suggest socialism was to be ridiculed if you were acknowledged. The US parties and media were wholly captured. It was a loss, not internal treachery.

They're still winning in the UK where the "left" wing party has successfully purged their ranks at the national level and is working steadily downwards. The leadership is calculating the correct degree of racism/anti-transgender sentiment to portray in order to capture right wing voters, while believing that the left electorate has nowhere to go. Watch and see how that works out for them.

Trust me. If you push on your course, you'll get mysteriously zero traction on class politics but you MIGHT succeed on your other front!

 

[choxorn]

They know some of these people were on thier side, and they're foolish enough to not want to consider that thier champions were on the island, too. Which is why the Trumps pardon the Blagojevichs.

Pretty much any time someone brings this up as a "gotcha" towards the left the response is, from me and others, "Uh... then send the Blagojevichs and Clintons to jail too, if you can actually prove they did illegal things?"

Like, have we not made it clear enough that we don't like Bill and Hillary either? Why do they keep getting referred to as our "champions"?

At least according to Jon Stewart (fwtiw), the dem political adds weren't woke, to the contrary they parroted gop positions (anti-illegal immigration, pro-police). Of course one should ask just why would a conservative voter choose your conservative-copy party instead of the original.

Well, duh, of course the kind of voters they're trying to appeal to by copying the GOP are already going to vote for Trump no matter what anyway, because they don't want "mostly Trump's ideas," they want Trump!

I don't see the inverse correlation between these two things. The insistence that one requires the removal of the other (and perhaps even sacrifices from them) looks very confused.

It's the sacrifices part that always gets me. Like what, so we have to stop fighting every other battle except class because some lower-class white people get mad when we point out that the other issues still exist and we should do something about them?

It's not like that even works as a tactic! You might pick up a few of the bigots by reassuring their prejudices or at least not actively bringing up anything that triggers them, but then you just lose everyone else because they see that you don't care about their needs and will throw them under the bus whenever it's politically convenient.

B: Harris lost because a more charismatic candidate exploited wedge issues created by the modern left.

We didn't create the issues, we just highlight that the issues exist. We can't make racism go away by just not talking about race ever.

 

[Voidwalkin]

No, really, I understand you, I just wholly disagree with you. The capitalists won to such an extent that to suggest socialism was to be ridiculed if you were acknowledged. The US parties and media were wholly captured. It was a loss, not internal treachery.

This is equivalent to the Illuminati. Same function, same attribution of mind control to an elite. It avoids introspection or analysis for doctrinal failures by shifting the moral burden from the leftist to another entity.

The USSR and commie China were/are bad and it made the public hostile to the good parts of the ideology. It was no conspiracy. As those memories fade, opportunities arise.

We didn't create the issues, we just highlight that the issues exist. We can't make racism go away by just not talking about race ever

You can't seem to make it go away by endlessly discussing, either, but that will preclude grasp of any meaningful lever of power, particularly if you do it ridiculously or arbitrarily in service of a greater good thought unfair.

 

[Farm Boy]

Pretty much any time someone brings this up as a "gotcha" towards the left the response is, from me and others, "Uh... then send the Blagojevichs and Clintons to jail too, if you can actually prove they did illegal things?"

It's not a gotcha, you're reading the context wrong. We did send Blago to jail.

 

[Gorbles]

This is equivalent to the Illuminati. Same function, same attribution of mind control to an elite. It avoids introspection or analysis for doctrinal failures by shifting the moral burden from the leftist to another entity.

The irony here is mindblowing.

 

[choxorn]

It's not a gotcha, you're reading the context wrong. We did send Blago to jail.

Then honestly I'm not really sure what the context or the point is

 

[Estebonrober]

Insert traditional identity X, add the silo'd echo chambers of modern communications technology, and evolutions of belief like this are predictable.

Seems you've picked up pieces of my argument, but continue to interpret them with the lens of a modern leftist. I argue the glasses are bad.

Yes, in either case, activists talk, or don't, people are varying degrees of illiberal, liberal and will retain past memories of where activists engaged. Modern left has/is engaging on what could be called a spectrum of liberalism almost exclusively. It's all anybody sees regardless of where on that spectrum they sit, conservative or liberal or progressive.

I argue if the people are made to understand that class is their most relevant identity, which constant engagement on a spectrum of liberalism does not do, their assessments regarding the relevance/importance of material politics changes.

Modern left is, from the outset, forfeiting the disruptive power of class as identity, by extensive examination of the innumerable interactions of traditional identities. Doctrinal failure. It takes it all over and has very little unification potential. It consequently is vulnerable.

If I did not believe that we will be in WWIII before the end of the decade with our current trajectory, I'd say that all the "activist left" people are moaning about atm will have their day... like most left-wing academic originated talking points, they are right about the science and morals of this stuff. Consider it seed planting, in ten years when we get back to this stuff again, we will remind you schmucks how stupid you were now and maybe to not continue senseless bigotry. This rhymes with every other stupid fudging arc for minority rights.

For now, I think leftists should focus on economics and disparity. I've thought this since at least 2008, back when I thought even the GOP could be negotiated with to rebuild America. (our infrastructure was getting C and D ratings even before 0). It will not matter; I doubt anything gets better before a big war. We are all headed into a collision course with each other...