Election 2024 Part III: Out with the old!

Who do you think will win in November?


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Bernie or AOC would never do something that stupid. Are there really that many republicans who care about the Cheneys? And are they more than the democrats who will have a vomit-inducing moment?
I suppose they can forget about the middle-eastern-background vote (not that they were ever particularly aspiring to get it).
 
Accepting the endorsement of Liz Cheney seems cynical, counting on most voters to have short enough memories to see Liz Cheney, only in terms of the last thing she was getting headlines for, ie., being a Republican that took a hardline NeverTrump stance. It seems like Harris is also trying to come off as being gracious. It goes along with the whole moderate outreach the Harris-Walz campaign has been doing. I'd also say praising Dick Cheney was laying it on way too thick. She could have just accepted the endorsement and left it at that... or just commented generally about "uniting across party lines to save Democracy" or similar.

The idea I think, is to embrace these "permission" endorsements from prominent Republicans, with the perception being that the endorsements give Republican voters "permission" to switch sides and vote for Harris to express their disdain for Trump. I'm skeptical that this kind of Faustian bargain is even going to have any impact. I doubt many voters who admire Dick Cheney would be inclined to vote for Harris under any circumstances. Obviously its going to be off-putting to some of Harris' potential voters, but I don't think it will be enough to induce a person who was committed to voting for Harris-Walz to suddenly say "Oh Harris accepted the Cheney's endorsement? That's it I'm not voting for Harris anymore!" I'm guessing that most Democratically inclined voters for whom this is the most upsetting were already not voting for Harris anyway.

Either way, I agree that it kinda sucks, in that I think it was unnecessary. It's not going to add any votes, and it just makes committed Harris-Walz voters have to cringe/facepalm.:cringe:
 
Accepting the endorsement of Liz Cheney seems cynical, counting on most voters to have short enough memories to see Liz Cheney, only in terms of the last thing she was getting headlines for, ie., being a Republican that took a hardline NeverTrump stance. It seems like Harris is also trying to come off as being gracious. It goes along with the whole moderate outreach the Harris-Walz campaign has been doing. I'd also say praising Dick Cheney was laying it on way too thick. She could have just accepted the endorsement and left it at that... or just commented generally about "uniting across party lines to save Democracy" or similar.

The idea I think, is to embrace these "permission" endorsements from prominent Republicans, with the perception being that the endorsements give Republican voters "permission" to switch sides and vote for Harris to express their disdain for Trump. I'm skeptical that this kind of Faustian bargain is even going to have any impact. I doubt many voters who admire Dick Cheney would be inclined to vote for Harris under any circumstances. Obviously its going to be off-putting to some of Harris' potential voters, but I don't think it will be enough to induce a person who was committed to voting for Harris-Walz to suddenly say "Oh Harris accepted the Cheney's endorsement? That's it I'm not voting for Harris anymore!" I'm guessing that most Democratically inclined voters for whom this is the most upsetting were already not voting for Harris anyway.

Either way, I agree that it kinda sucks, in that I think it was unnecessary. It's not going to add any votes, and it just makes committed Harris-Walz voters have to cringe/facepalm.:cringe:

This whole walk-back into a Hillary approach to campaigning is making me question my commitment to this ticket. I don't think I have any place in a party that lauds the "achievements" of a butcher who directly (and unrepentantly) caused the deaths of a million people, nor his daughter who lost her primary by nearly 40 points. None of this is needful or helpful. And if not even "don't embrace your universally reviled political opponents who are also authoritarian sociopaths" is sacrosanct in a campaign that sells itself on its goodness and moralism, then there is clearly no line that is or ever will be uncrossable. Which is profoundly scary as a member of a minority group whose legal status is currently being politically problematized.

All I can say is thank god my Canadian citizenship came through.
 
This whole walk-back into a Hillary approach to campaigning is making me question my commitment to this ticket. I don't think I have any place in a party that lauds the "achievements" of a butcher who directly (and unrepentantly) caused the deaths of a million people, nor his daughter who lost her primary by nearly 40 points. None of this is needful or helpful. And if not even "don't embrace your universally reviled political opponents who are also authoritarian sociopaths" is sacrosanct in a campaign that sells itself on its goodness and moralism, then there is clearly no line that is or ever will be uncrossable. Which is profoundly scary as a member of a minority group whose legal status is currently being politically problematized.

All I can say is thank god my Canadian citizenship came through.

Looks like Liberals are going to crash and burn there.

And Canadian conservatives like the ones here are influenced by America.
 
Are there really that many republicans who care about the Cheneys? And are they more than the democrats who will have a vomit-inducing moment?
Her comment seemed to me nothing more than decorum. Standard respect for the office thing that used to be very common; "thank him for all he's done to serve our country" wouldn't have been a showstopper 20 years ago. It isn't now, either, really - bare in mind, CFC OT is far more preachy than the general American voting public, most of whom haven't read those comments and wouldn't have a strong reaction if they did.

Just shows the reluctant Trump supporter who pines for the less polarized days of old a bridge. I dunno how many will cross it. Measured against those disappointed their moralist leanings were not voiced by Harris? They were going to find another reason to be disappointed, anyway. Demands for some imagining of an optimally pro-social contemporary morality will always fall well short. In the end, despite the shortcomings, if they genuinely believe Trump to be some variety of authoritarian fascist, they are compelled to vote Harris anyway.
I suppose they can forget about the middle-eastern-background vote (not that they were ever particularly aspiring to get it).
The more pragmatic will still vote Harris. If Biden may blunder into a war, Trump appears eager for the sort of macho posturing(via stealth bombers) that's far more likely to lead to one.

It will make little difference either way; the ME vote in MI is going to be one of those things so marginal it could never truly be said to make the difference. It would not be that you couldn't convince any outta 100k in Deerborne to vote for Harris, it would be because you couldn't convince enough outta the 3.5 million likely R votes in the rest of MI.
 
Her comment seemed to me nothing more than decorum. Standard respect for the office thing that used to be very common; "thank him for all he's done to serve our country" wouldn't have been a showstopper 20 years ago.

If the rules of decorum and respect are that you must respectfully acknowledge the war criminal who killed a million people and thank him for his service, the rules of decorum and respect are bullfeathers.
 
If the rules of decorum and respect are that you must respectfully acknowledge the war criminal who killed a million people and thank him for his service, the rules of decorum and respect are bullfeathers.
She didn't HAVE to, but that she did is so low priority of concern to me that I'm reserving my outrage capital for issues with more ROI, personally.
 
A Pair of Billionaire Preachers Built the Most Powerful Political Machine in Texas. That’s Just the Start.
By now, ‘preacher’ seems to sound like a subtype of ‘billionaire’.
Dick Cheney was one of the key perpetrators of a crime that killed over one million people, a crime that his daughter fully supports to this day
Which crime are we talking about in particular? The attack of opportunity unprovoked invasion of Iraq?

Because I strongly suspect that environmental deregulation and wild economic impolicy have killed a crapton more people each on their own. But maybe less visibly.
 
"The enemy of my enemy is my friend".

The long term effort to reform the Democratic party begins with defeating Trump in November.
As it was in 2020, as it was in 2016, etc.

At what point does a lack of progress become longstanding enough that criticism can finally be allowed? Reform comes through allowing meaningful criticism to impact the party line. Failure to allow reform is how worse outcomes become palatable.
 
The Dems certainly need to change some of their thinking. Obama was hampered by a GOP congress. Maybe Harris will, if elected, have good control of Congress so she can actually make progress.
 
Because I strongly suspect that environmental deregulation and wild economic impolicy have killed a crapton more people each on their own. But maybe less visibly.
I have the same hunch. Difficulties of quantification on the effects of those. The scale of a country of 330 million does leave room for mismanagement to be astonishingly lethal, though guesstimations are an integral part of it. Guesstimated inefficiency of policy vs replacement.
At what point does a lack of progress become longstanding enough that criticism can finally be allowed? Reform comes through allowing meaningful criticism to impact the party line. Failure to allow reform is how worse outcomes become palatable.
Primary. 1 month before a general election... eh. Nah.
 
The Dems certainly need to change some of their thinking. Obama was hampered by a GOP congress. Maybe Harris will, if elected, have good control of Congress so she can actually make progress.
Obama had a range of 253 - 256 Democrat Representatives and a range of 55 - 58 Democrat Senators with 2 Independents who caucused with them during the 211th Congress (2009 and 2010), easily enough to get through any bill they wanted.

The issue was two fold, some conservative minded Blue Dog Democrats and Obama naively wanting to work with the Republicans after having worked with them in the Senate, not realizing they had basically gone into "No-bama" mode by then.

On the other note, Biden had a much bigger issue where his first two years the Democrats only nomally controlled the Senate because it was half and half, but with a Democrat VP, but then there was Manchn and Sinema (mainly Manchin) who would grandstand against any of the more progressive bills, while the second two years had the Republicans barely control the House even with a much more secure Senate.
 
She didn't HAVE to, but that she did is so low priority of concern to me that I'm reserving my outrage capital for issues with more ROI, personally.

Sure, I guess, in the grand scheme of things this is pretty minor and doesn't matter all that much, but are we not allowed to be a little upset with Kamala for directly saying "thanks for your service to this country" to Dick Cheney?
 
Sure, I guess, in the grand scheme of things this is pretty minor and doesn't matter all that much, but are we not allowed to be a little upset with Kamala for directly saying "thanks for your service to this country" to Dick Cheney?
People can, will, and in fact, have.

If A says "this does not reflect my moral leanings, and that is demoralizing" I don't care, really. Evaluation of everything from a moral rather than utilitarian view is one of those things I've had to accept is a human tendency. At least it's not cleaning. I'd really be triggered then. Claim that cleanliness without function is morally righteous and I will flip.

I don't see moralism as wise, though. Not productive. In my view, there have been countless religions or religious adjacent ideologies that have tried to do that, failing for vast stretches of time. People seem to behave according to scarcity. I conclude that moralism is ineffective at producing moral change relative to alleviating scarcity.

Morality may not change in a one month timeframe, but politics does. People generally are used to pushing morality, but to do so if it lessens ability to use politics to achieve less scarcity is suboptimal, even for those more interested in achieving a society in which the Cheney's would not be morally viable.
 
She's bounced out of the halls of power. Didn't even have to jerrymander her out like others were. Is the pride is so inflexible we can't even acknowledge respect for a price paid in service to a shared lip-ideal?

Damn. That's not a little bit of pride. I find our history makes more sense by the day.
 
A memorable photo from the run up to the election, featuring Elon.

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