OOC: I think that an important thing might be that, if we're going to have a sudden surge in the Church of Iralliam's missionary activity, it would be a good thing if it had an IC as well as an OOC cause established. Not that there's anything wrong with the Church suddenly becoming extremely active and evangelistic, but it needs a deep in-world explanation that is more than a change of Grandpatriarch, or at least the provision of one would be highly desirable. I mean, a change like this could have in-world consequences; I mean, at its most extreme, elements of the Church might dislike the evangelism and have a split of some variety, or at very least it might involve crackdowns on Indagahor, etc.; and I therefore think that it should have clear in-world causes rather than coming more or less out of the blue.
End of Empires - N3S III
- Thread starter North King
- Start date
das
Regeneration In Process
OOC: Firstly, the evangelism was already ongoing more or less stably - it just wasn't always commented on much. 
Secondly, the Church has been undergoing a great deal of renovation and change over the last few updates, so a more powerful burst of missionary activity at the end of that inwards-looking cycle seems plausible to me. See... well, the Catholic Church, after any of its major internal reforms.
Secondly, the Church has been undergoing a great deal of renovation and change over the last few updates, so a more powerful burst of missionary activity at the end of that inwards-looking cycle seems plausible to me. See... well, the Catholic Church, after any of its major internal reforms.OOC: Well, has an explanation been provided of how (a) the reforms in the Church lead to (b) the surge in missionary activity? This causal chain, if it hasn't already been elaborated, might be something interesting for Jehoshua to look at - and might be equally interesting for him, too, I suppose.
I don't object to the whole thing, but I do think its causality needs to be looked at in moderate depth.
I don't object to the whole thing, but I do think its causality needs to be looked at in moderate depth.
Jehoshua
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On the first response:
I'm obviously interested in converting the heathen periphery of the cradle, although Im not likely to push for schism, namely because I'm running the Church here as compared to simply a host state. That and the experience of schism is amply demonstrated by Aitahism at present. I'll probably as such be dealing more with Church-state relations as a consequence, with all the unique peculiarities involved in each state.
At any rate, I'm glad the systematic trawling of updates, the consultation with das, and the reading of the wiki resulted in something close to the original essence of Iralliam. Hopefully Im not too jarring to the non-helsians of the thread in terms of my terminology and trajectory even when they coincide with the Christian experience (you can expect deputies to the patriarchs, ergo bishop analogues, to appear as a natural consequence of the need for reform catalysed by the inability of the patriarchs to individually manage vast territories and the Sokar episode. They shall be termed Exarchs due to its real world meaning of deputy to a patriarch, and because the term conveniently fits in with the old Thearakian word Exarcos which Kal'thzar used to refer to the old Liealb dukes of Thearak back in the day [post 674 of this same thread for those who doubt my words]) Oh and efforts to consolidate of the Order of Faith into a universal institution under the Church rather than the Moti Empire will occur), although I can assure Iggy that for the most part what I intend with regards to Iralliam will have nothing to do with Christianity and indeed is likely to be quite different from it.
On the rest
With regards to Church reforms and the missionary activity. I suppose you could say that the sense of humiliation brought about by the Imperial intrusion into the Church, and the confronting experience of institutional weakness to the point of being shamed by the Sokar episode before the entire Church, in a reactionary sense, spurred a movement towards internal reform and assertive evangelical zeal. A political example of this would be the Chinese experience in light of the "century of shame". You could also refer to alleged Aitahist influence in the Imperial Hierarchy of the Moti Empire (in light of the tension between it and the Church_ and the historical threat of Satarai Ardavanists as a presence that has pushed a paradigm shift in the institutional Church's attitudes towards other religions and encouraged a renewal of its fundamentally dualistic view of the world.
As Spryllino said though, its something I could, and probably will elaborate on later.
I'm obviously interested in converting the heathen periphery of the cradle, although Im not likely to push for schism, namely because I'm running the Church here as compared to simply a host state. That and the experience of schism is amply demonstrated by Aitahism at present. I'll probably as such be dealing more with Church-state relations as a consequence, with all the unique peculiarities involved in each state.
At any rate, I'm glad the systematic trawling of updates, the consultation with das, and the reading of the wiki resulted in something close to the original essence of Iralliam. Hopefully Im not too jarring to the non-helsians of the thread in terms of my terminology and trajectory even when they coincide with the Christian experience (you can expect deputies to the patriarchs, ergo bishop analogues, to appear as a natural consequence of the need for reform catalysed by the inability of the patriarchs to individually manage vast territories and the Sokar episode. They shall be termed Exarchs due to its real world meaning of deputy to a patriarch, and because the term conveniently fits in with the old Thearakian word Exarcos which Kal'thzar used to refer to the old Liealb dukes of Thearak back in the day [post 674 of this same thread for those who doubt my words]) Oh and efforts to consolidate of the Order of Faith into a universal institution under the Church rather than the Moti Empire will occur), although I can assure Iggy that for the most part what I intend with regards to Iralliam will have nothing to do with Christianity and indeed is likely to be quite different from it.
On the rest
With regards to Church reforms and the missionary activity. I suppose you could say that the sense of humiliation brought about by the Imperial intrusion into the Church, and the confronting experience of institutional weakness to the point of being shamed by the Sokar episode before the entire Church, in a reactionary sense, spurred a movement towards internal reform and assertive evangelical zeal. A political example of this would be the Chinese experience in light of the "century of shame". You could also refer to alleged Aitahist influence in the Imperial Hierarchy of the Moti Empire (in light of the tension between it and the Church_ and the historical threat of Satarai Ardavanists as a presence that has pushed a paradigm shift in the institutional Church's attitudes towards other religions and encouraged a renewal of its fundamentally dualistic view of the world.
As Spryllino said though, its something I could, and probably will elaborate on later.
Luckymoose
The World is Mine
We like have multiple colors, not unlike Neapolitan ice cream.
Jehoshua
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Tell it to the Northern Aitahists, do not the Orthodox Aitahists deny the divinity of certain incarnations they hold as legitimate? I seem to recall one Aitah went south to convince them otherwise and she was quite clearly rejected.
Oh, and sure Eastern and Orthodox Aitahism recognise each others legitimacy, but they are still separate.
Luckymoose
The World is Mine
She walks down a little path to the beach, sits on a rock and concentrates on the crack that that's starting to appear in the darkness. The stiff breeze catches her hair and holds it horizontal, pale against the darkness. She wraps her arms around her knees, delicately places her head on them, and stares out over the waves towards the horizon which is rising quickly now.
She listens to the waves beating against the sand for a while. Her toe falls from its perch on the rock and touches the water which spools around it as the wave withdraws. She jumps and draws her toe of the water shaking it. Soon she begins to shake, the wind has strengthened and Haiao remains behind the horizon. She sighs and stares once more at the breakers.
"You like to let the sound of the waves wash over you too?" She looks around in confusion. The voice continues: "I'm sorry. You looked at me, I thought you wanted to talk". "Haiao?", she asks. "I am he" the voice replies. "I listen to the waves sometimes. It's a good way to clear you thoughts." She smiles as Haiao rises and his smile touches the world anew.
She listens to the waves beating against the sand for a while. Her toe falls from its perch on the rock and touches the water which spools around it as the wave withdraws. She jumps and draws her toe of the water shaking it. Soon she begins to shake, the wind has strengthened and Haiao remains behind the horizon. She sighs and stares once more at the breakers.
"You like to let the sound of the waves wash over you too?" She looks around in confusion. The voice continues: "I'm sorry. You looked at me, I thought you wanted to talk". "Haiao?", she asks. "I am he" the voice replies. "I listen to the waves sometimes. It's a good way to clear you thoughts." She smiles as Haiao rises and his smile touches the world anew.
No violent schism, anyway, of the sort that birthed the Catholic-Protestant or Sunni-Shia splits. But the drift apart between Catholicism and Orthodoxy was also slow and steady (and much less extreme in a purely doctrinal sense), and the same for Mahayana and Theravada.
North King
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Well, one of Iggy's objections is rather valid -- the liturgical language would be Liealb, which isn't dead, just very ailing and only spoken in the heartland of the Church. I always imagined that Gaci pioneered the use of Uggor for certain religious purposes, which is a lot closer to an ecumenical language. I believe I commented at some point that the linguistic diversity of the cradle might be part of the reason religions in the NES have had such a hard time spreading beyond their roots; in the real world, of course, the Church had Greek/Latin to piggyback on. I do think the using Latin/Greek terminology is a little funky, especially when they are highly specialized terms that I'd have to look up in a normal context anyway. Things that obscure could probably use con-terms, if only so we don't associate them with the very particular ideas present in RL churches. That said, I do like the activity, even if I honestly am only just going to read through it.
That said, commencing update.
That said, commencing update.
Jehoshua
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On the Liturgical language thing, I see Old Thearakian and the vernacular Liealb language in a context sort of like the relationship between latin and the romance languages, or Sanskrit and most of the indian languages. Ergo such an amount of time has passed that the language of religion has diverged from the common speech, which has continued to evolve over time where the sacral language has remained static. That said, depending on how much time has passed common Liealb and Old Thearakan might still be mutually comprehensible, I'll leave that assessment up to others. I do however see the continued usage of the language of Thearak in a context less like latin and more like Sanskrit/pali. Both those languages continue to be used in Buddhism far beyond where these languages were ever spoken.
Oh, and on the use of obscure architectural terms like Catholicon (church surrounded by outbuildings in a monastic context) and aedicule (small room and or structure used as a shrine [also used to refer to an opening framed by columns and a pediment]). I suppose your right that its a bit problematic for people not already familiar with the terms. I suppose I will cease and desist on that front and avoid using such specific language in favour of generalities. (EDIT: Just repeating that I am not the progenitor of terms like Patriarch or even exarch for the purposes of this NES and the discussion on language.)
EDIT II: Common Liealb in my assesment is not likely to be ailing in the macro-term, due to the dominant liealb culture of Jipha. Jipha, ironically Indagahori is likely to use the liealb language as the language of state and society and be where Liealbian language has the brightest future. That said your assessment I would say is quite right within the bounds of the Holy Moti Empire, and possibly also in Kitar (although since the Liealb there is not so subordinated to another culture like they are in the Empire, it might be going strong there as well)
Oh, and on the use of obscure architectural terms like Catholicon (church surrounded by outbuildings in a monastic context) and aedicule (small room and or structure used as a shrine [also used to refer to an opening framed by columns and a pediment]). I suppose your right that its a bit problematic for people not already familiar with the terms. I suppose I will cease and desist on that front and avoid using such specific language in favour of generalities. (EDIT: Just repeating that I am not the progenitor of terms like Patriarch or even exarch for the purposes of this NES and the discussion on language.)
EDIT II: Common Liealb in my assesment is not likely to be ailing in the macro-term, due to the dominant liealb culture of Jipha. Jipha, ironically Indagahori is likely to use the liealb language as the language of state and society and be where Liealbian language has the brightest future. That said your assessment I would say is quite right within the bounds of the Holy Moti Empire, and possibly also in Kitar (although since the Liealb there is not so subordinated to another culture like they are in the Empire, it might be going strong there as well)
Thlayli
Le Pétit Prince
In Karapeshai Exatai, heathen periphery converts you.
North King
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Legit. Don't worry about too much.
Jipha is actually a pretty tricky beast, and this isn't reflected in the stats (I probably need to reformat the culture stat), but Liealb, Zyeshu, and Hamakua cultures are on a fairly even footing. I haven't really spent much time thinking about the language there, but I suppose at this point it's probably "Jiphan" more than anything else.
Jehoshua
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On the contrary, in the civilised world Ardavan is on the decline. Its gains are entirely in the equally heathen north, where it is competing with Ytauzi and Enguntith. The Vithanana Empire on an aside is also officially Ardavan, but considered the vast multitudes uphold traditional Dulama religion I suspect that change is likely to come sooner rather than later with regards to the ruling classes religious affiliations as we saw in the Kothari Exatai. A small conquering class almost always ends up "going native", especially when inserted into an ancient and established culture.
@North King, Im not worrying, I'm happy to discuss theoreticals and linguistics (the corrupt influence of a linguist friend has tainted me). On Jipha I would hazard a guess considering the area was originally Liealb, that what you have there is a Lieab language, which has then accrued a lot of Zyeshuan and Hamakuan influences. Sort of like how English accrued a lot of latinate words from latin and French, while still remaining a Germanic language at its core. So yes "Jiphan". Then further north you might have some sort of dialect continuum into Kipha, save that the areas closer to Opios and the Kiyaj (so the Iralliam areas) are likely to be pure Liealb.
@North King, Im not worrying, I'm happy to discuss theoreticals and linguistics (the corrupt influence of a linguist friend has tainted me). On Jipha I would hazard a guess considering the area was originally Liealb, that what you have there is a Lieab language, which has then accrued a lot of Zyeshuan and Hamakuan influences. Sort of like how English accrued a lot of latinate words from latin and French, while still remaining a Germanic language at its core. So yes "Jiphan". Then further north you might have some sort of dialect continuum into Kipha, save that the areas closer to Opios and the Kiyaj (so the Iralliam areas) are likely to be pure Liealb.
This was the 'Pontiff' comment, by the way.
But that's just a quibble. Thanks for the responses Jehoshua! If you're confident that Iralliam is following its own path, and the others are confident in your actions, then you may consider my concerns assuaged.
Jehoshua
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Its good this side-matter has been resolved, now its back to the traditional candle-lit vigil in anticipation of the update. oh and that was before I even joined and was utterly outside of the context of my actions on Iralliam, so no wonder I missed it
I disagree that this is *always* true. Look at the conversion of Persia from Zoroastrianism to Islam, for example. It has been true more often than not but is not necessarily the case. Especially when the domestic religion itself has experienced significant setbacks in recent decades, like the traditional Dulama religion (abandonment of the religion by the Dulama Empire, well before its loss of its original territories, repeated defeat of religiously motivated revolts by Dula, etc.). Then again, Ardavan and the Dulama religion seem fairly fit for syncretism, anyway.
