Enlightenment Era for Vox Populi (v 4)

[Myrrdin_Emrys]

I just discover this mod few time ago, and i love it, thanks for making it compatible and balanced with VP !

May i suggest few ideas about buildings/wonders : (of course i may be wrong because it's related to my game experience and my style of play)

1) Tavern (+1 to deer/bison/wheat and +1 to market caravansery and custom house) . I nearly never do this buildings it cost to much with to low yields .... maybe buffing to +2 or +2 or +1/ ....)

2) Grimshold Castle +1 in each city/+1/+2to lake worked by the city .... i will bypass this wonder too not good enough maybe add the +2 to oasis as well and even give the bonus to all lakes and oasis, not only the one worked by the city

3)Topkapi Palace +1 to defensive buildings, +3 .... To me Notre Dame who is available far earlier is doing better, less faith and only +2 but also provides a free golden age and cathedral ! SO maybe buff the yields to +2 per buildings or at least if it's too much faith +1/ per building

4) Versailles is maybe this time a little too powerful, compared to Taj Mahal. It's giving more culture + a free writer+ we love the king duration instead of +20% and the both give a free golden age ! Maybe just give a free "We love the king day" instead of a golden age and again the free writer is still too good to me, global theater is giving just some culture and a free GW ! I'm French so i love Versailles but even so, it's maybe still a little too powerful ! So maybe you should deleter the free GW (but could give some buff to culture yield instead from +5 to +8).

5) Tower of Budhist Encens : Again too powerful for me, or at least it comes too early. A Free GPP for a national wonder is sooooo great (or at least delete the other bonus culture and reducing religious unrest)

6) Academy/Salon are great ideas i love this idea when you have to make a choice !

7) Wat Phraw Kaew giving +2 to all religious buildings and you have often +6 per city ! It's a bit too much for me maybe just reducing +2 to shrines and temples only (with byzance with you could get +10 per city ! ! !) or maybe +1 to al religious buildings, but give a nice boost of science to the wonder itself (+10 in the built city !)

8) Torre Del Oro (+1 trade route, free harbor, +3 for trade route from/to this city +50% length of TR). This time to me it's a crappy wonder except if you are Marocco, Portugal, Ottoman or Venice. I will bypass it, it's a Colossus of Rhodes, but in worst cuz it comes so late .... Free Harbor ? no sense cuz harbor come a lot of techs ago ! Maybe instead give +2/ to each Harbor in your Empire (the yields are maybe not balanced and should be discussed) and even like this it does not seem so appealing to me or maybe +1// to each Lighthouse and Harbor ?

9) Smithsonian Institute +2/ +1Great scientist point 2 free slot of art/artifact and a free academy .....
Errrrrrrrrrk ! Even if it was a national wonder i could bypass it, so for a World wonder i will never ever build it (because it would increase the cost of every other wonders i would buy and this wonder brings no bonus ....) Academy is unlocked farrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr before this wonder so except the maintenance it's not a free building. Maybe ths wonder could come with 1 or maybe 2 great work filled ? it could bring a free public school or menagerie (public school is one tech lvl under, Menagerie is on the same tech). To me this wonder needs serious buff !


That is all i notice about buildings/wonders, again it's just my 2 cents, and if criticize so much it's only because this mod is so great !

 

[Aldebaran1997]

I just discover this mod few time ago, and i love it, thanks for making it compatible and balanced with VP !

May i suggest few ideas about buildings/wonders : (of course i may be wrong because it's related to my game experience and my style of play)

1) Tavern (+1 to deer/bison/wheat and +1 to market caravansery and custom house) . I nearly never do this buildings it cost to much with to low yields .... maybe buffing to +2 or +2 or +1/ ....)

2) Grimshold Castle +1 in each city/+1/+2to lake worked by the city .... i will bypass this wonder too not good enough maybe add the +2 to oasis as well and even give the bonus to all lakes and oasis, not only the one worked by the city

3)Topkapi Palace +1 to defensive buildings, +3 .... To me Notre Dame who is available far earlier is doing better, less faith and only +2 but also provides a free golden age and cathedral ! SO maybe buff the yields to +2 per buildings or at least if it's too much faith +1/ per building

4) Versailles is maybe this time a little too powerful, compared to Taj Mahal. It's giving more culture + a free writer+ we love the king duration instead of +20% and the both give a free golden age ! Maybe just give a free "We love the king day" instead of a golden age and again the free writer is still too good to me, global theater is giving just some culture and a free GW ! I'm French so i love Versailles but even so, it's maybe still a little too powerful ! So maybe you should deleter the free GW (but could give some buff to culture yield instead from +5 to +8).

5) Tower of Budhist Encens : Again too powerful for me, or at least it comes too early. A Free GPP for a national wonder is sooooo great (or at least delete the other bonus culture and reducing religious unrest)

6) Academy/Salon are great ideas i love this idea when you have to make a choice !

7) Wat Phraw Kaew giving +2 to all religious buildings and you have often +6 per city ! It's a bit too much for me maybe just reducing +2 to shrines and temples only (with byzance with you could get +10 per city ! ! !) or maybe +1 to al religious buildings, but give a nice boost of science to the wonder itself (+10 in the built city !)

8) Torre Del Oro (+1 trade route, free harbor, +3 for trade route from/to this city +50% length of TR). This time to me it's a crappy wonder except if you are Marocco, Portugal, Ottoman or Venice. I will bypass it, it's a Colossus of Rhodes, but in worst cuz it comes so late .... Free Harbor ? no sense cuz harbor come a lot of techs ago ! Maybe instead give +2/ to each Harbor in your Empire (the yields are maybe not balanced and should be discussed) and even like this it does not seem so appealing to me or maybe +1// to each Lighthouse and Harbor ?

9) Smithsonian Institute +2/ +1Great scientist point 2 free slot of art/artifact and a free academy .....
Errrrrrrrrrk ! Even if it was a national wonder i could bypass it, so for a World wonder i will never ever build it (because it would increase the cost of every other wonders i would buy and this wonder brings no bonus ....) Academy is unlocked farrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr before this wonder so except the maintenance it's not a free building. Maybe ths wonder could come with 1 or maybe 2 great work filled ? it could bring a free public school or menagerie (public school is one tech lvl under, Menagerie is on the same tech). To me this wonder needs serious buff !


That is all i notice about buildings/wonders, again it's just my 2 cents, and if criticize so much it's only because this mod is so great !

1, 2, 3. Hey, seriously?

4. I agree with this. Free GW from Versailles is very overlapped Globe Theatre one. I don't think it'd be good in balance-wise to replace GA to WLTKD if it already lose its GW, although it'll be fun because there is no other free WLTKD effect except Mausoleum.

5. I don't think so.

7. Yeah. It's super powerful. It needs to be nerfed.

8. Your buffing suggestions, as you said, are so broken further more than Versailles or Wat.

9. Agreeeed, maybe?

 

[Infixo]

@Myrrdin_Emrys Great comments, thanks a lot! I had some troubles with balancing Wonders and I am aware that they could be better. Some of ideas were already on the table - I'll try to give short explanations, so we're all on the same page.

1. Tavern. Also +1 sci to Harbor and Lighthouse. In total +5 science. Hm, probably need to fix the description, it's incomplete. BTW, AIs build it as crazy, maybe I've given in too much Flavor, or maybe AIs struggle with Unhapinness and Tavern gives also fights Boredom.
2. Gripsholm is lake-based castle in Sweden, so Oasis doesn't fit but giving boost to All Lakes - could be. However, it would require a Dummy Building since Building_LakePlotYieldChanges only works with local lakes. Some work, would need a consensus for such a change. Could also give some Defence to City or free e.g. Bastion, it's a Castle after all
3. Topkapki. Well, in one of first versions it actually gave +2 Faith, but then I calculated that in total it would be +8 (there are 4 def buildings) - so basically more than shrine+temple. Kind of upside-down. That's why it ended up with +1. It'a museum today so maybe some +Gold or +Tourism would be ok.
4. Versailles. There's only 1 building in the entire VP that gives GW (Globe) and 2 for GA (Louvre, Ufizzi), so that's why I came up with this idea. I really would like to leave it. If it's too strong now, I can remove GA. WLTKD extension is quite unique and fun.
5. TowerBuddhist. Maybe it should more difficult to get. Isn't it too cheap? I can make it more expensive (e.g. 800) and maybe add Garden as additional prereq building (gardens are key attraction around the Tower IRL) or Water as req (It's build near lake IRL).
7. WatPhraw. +1 sci and maybe more sci from building itself (+5?) seems ok. Can do.
8. Torre. Agree that Harbor is not important - it's EE residue. But +1TR is quite powerful, and makes this Wonder good-for-some. It's good diversity, not all Wonders are all-rounders.
9. Smithsonian. Yup, didn't have clue how to make it stronger. Change Academy to PS is easy. Pre-filled works would mean I have to create some new GreatWorks, I suppose, with new graphics? Not sure if I can do that. Maybe +3 GPP instead of +1? IRL it's mostly museums and few zoos, so Menagerie is ok? OK, I would propose: remove Academy, add free Museum and Menagerie, boost GPP to +3.

 

[Biobob]

Have you thought about adding Future worlds to this mod That would be awesome! I have tried it, but something didnt work out in the end, and I wasnt able to choose Production in cities...

 

[Infixo]

Have you thought about adding Future worlds to this mod That would be awesome!

Actually, I did. Those future techs and units are so awsome
But taking into consideration that:
- "Integrating EE" basically meant "update all objects", sometimes it felt like I was redesigning and rewriting the whole EE- really time consuming, interesting but also tedious
- most VP games end-up somewhere along Indus/Modern; recent big change was about making VP playable in late-game in terms of managing huge armies - it seemed to me that basically none would ever get to FW
- would need to change Win conditions probably - move them further, rebalance diplo, so FW would make sense at all
- FW is 3x(?) times bigger that EE - huuuge...
well, I've given up.

I am working (basically finished) on a mod that injects a few new units into late-game, to fill-in gaps in unit lines. It's mainly naval warfare, 'cause I'm a little freak when it comes to ships
So, I've got: Dreadnought, Early Destroyer, Attack Submarine, Missile Destroyer and my favorite Supercarrier which is really badass, as it should be. And made the Missile Cruiser and Missile Destroyer to actually use rockets not cannons during combat
Also did some minor tweaks to planes and added a Rocket Missile as predecessor of Guided Missile.

 

[Asterix Rage]

@Myrrdin_Emrys Great comments, thanks a lot! I had some troubles with balancing Wonders and I am aware that they could be better. Some of ideas were already on the table - I'll try to give short explanations, so we're all on the same page.

1. Tavern. Also +1 sci to Harbor and Lighthouse. In total +5 science. Hm, probably need to fix the description, it's incomplete. BTW, AIs build it as crazy, maybe I've given in too much Flavor, or maybe AIs struggle with Unhapinness and Tavern gives also fights Boredom.
2. Gripsholm is lake-based castle in Sweden, so Oasis doesn't fit but giving boost to All Lakes - could be. However, it would require a Dummy Building since Building_LakePlotYieldChanges only works with local lakes. Some work, would need a consensus for such a change. Could also give some Defence to City or free e.g. Bastion, it's a Castle after all
3. Topkapki. Well, in one of first versions it actually gave +2 Faith, but then I calculated that in total it would be +8 (there are 4 def buildings) - so basically more than shrine+temple. Kind of upside-down. That's why it ended up with +1. It'a museum today so maybe some +Gold or +Tourism would be ok.
4. Versailles. There's only 1 building in the entire VP that gives GW (Globe) and 2 for GA (Louvre, Ufizzi), so that's why I came up with this idea. I really would like to leave it. If it's too strong now, I can remove GA. WLTKD extension is quite unique and fun.
5. TowerBuddhist. Maybe it should more difficult to get. Isn't it too cheap? I can make it more expensive (e.g. 800) and maybe add Garden as additional prereq building (gardens are key attraction around the Tower IRL) or Water as req (It's build near lake IRL).
7. WatPhraw. +1 sci and maybe more sci from building itself (+5?) seems ok. Can do.
8. Torre. Agree that Harbor is not important - it's EE residue. But +1TR is quite powerful, and makes this Wonder good-for-some. It's good diversity, not all Wonders are all-rounders.
9. Smithsonian. Yup, didn't have clue how to make it stronger. Change Academy to PS is easy. Pre-filled works would mean I have to create some new GreatWorks, I suppose, with new graphics? Not sure if I can do that. Maybe +3 GPP instead of +1? IRL it's mostly museums and few zoos, so Menagerie is ok? OK, I would propose: remove Academy, add free Museum and Menagerie, boost GPP to +3.

Here is my point of view

1) Tavern. I wasn't aware about Harbour and lignthouse. +5 + + hapiness is a lot for a single building (a pub actually). Is it a joke?
2) Grimshold Castle. You right, It's a local castle near a lake. I suggest to remove the +1 in each city. Instead: + 3 and + 2 per local lake + Defence in the city
3) Topkapki. Looks powerful enough for me. "some +Gold or +Tourism": Why not in later Era then
4) Versailles. Looks fine for me
5) Tower of Budhist Encens. Too cheap of course
6) Academy/Salon. There are perfect
7) Wat Phraw Kaew. It gives too much . My suggestion is too remove the science bonus for Shrines and temples, +1 for the ALL the other religious buildings. It will be a reward for those who build them. +8 for the wonder itself
8) Torre Del Oro. Agreed with what you think
9) Smithsonian. Nothing wrong for me. A free Academy when you got already a Salon built is fine.

I am working (basically finished) on a mod that injects a few new units into late-game, to fill-in gaps in unit lines. It's mainly naval warfare, 'cause I'm a little freak when it comes to ships
So, I've got: Dreadnought, Early Destroyer, Attack Submarine, Missile Destroyer and my favorite Supercarrier which is really badass, as it should be. And made the Missile Cruiser and Missile Destroyer to actually use rockets not cannons during combat
Also did some minor tweaks to planes and added a Rocket Missile as predecessor of Guided Missile.

I love that. Obviously, a nuclear carrier is missing.

 

[Aldebaran1997]

Here is my point of view

1) Tavern. I wasn't aware about Harbour and lignthouse. +5 + + hapiness is a lot for a single building (a pub actually). Is it a joke?
2) Grimshold Castle. You right, It's a local castle near a lake. I suggest to remove the +1 in each city. Instead: + 3 and + 2 per local lake + Defence in the city
3) Topkapki. Looks powerful enough for me. "some +Gold or +Tourism": Why not in later Era then
4) Versailles. Looks fine for me
5) Tower of Budhist Encens. Too cheap of course
6) Academy/Salon. There are perfect
7) Wat Phraw Kaew. It gives too much . My suggestion is too remove the science bonus for Shrines and temples, +1 for the ALL the other religious buildings. It will be a reward for those who build them. +8 for the wonder itself
8) Torre Del Oro. Agreed with what you think
9) Smithsonian. Nothing wrong for me. A free Academy when you got already a Salon built is fine.




I love that. Obviously, a nuclear carrier is missing.

1, 2, 3. Agree.

7. Actually, I'm little bit worried about balance between religious buildings belief and non. In most circumstances, religious building belief already beats non. Idk why needs more heavy-religious building dependent wonder. I suggest exactly inverted one. Remove religious building science but retaining them to shrine and temple. +2 to shrine and +3 to temple is better, I assume?

9. Wait. Is it intended that Smithsonian gives Academy to Salon-built city?

 

[Infixo]

1. Tavern. +5 sci was actually done by Xony, thought it was somewhat agreed . Anyway, Tavern is supposed to add flavor to the game - wheat is used to make alcohol, food from bison and deer is served, and guests are doing 'bar science' or 'tavern science' in this case. I would leave this bonus for Harbors (taverns were built there) and Market (also related) and remove from other buildings.
2. Gripsholm - these are original parameters from Zwei833's RER. When you build it, your biggest cities usually have ~20 pop, adding +1 is not a big deal, really. And you need a lake nearby which somewhat limits it's effects- it's a very specialized Wonder.
3. Topkapi became a muaseum in 1924. I will add +3G & +2T in Modern Era.
4. Versaille - so, should I remove Golden Age or not?
5. Tower. Will be more expensive. I will add a Garden as prereq - I like such tiny RL connections.
7. WatPhraw. I will leave the effect only for Shrines and Temples. The SQL code will be much simpler this way.
8. Torre. No change.
9. Smithsonian. Salon and Academy exclude each other. You will not get an Academy if there's a Salon, so to fully utilize Smithsonian you musn't build Academy nor Salon. But I would really change it into Menagerie/Museum combo, just like IRL.

 

[phantomaxl1207]

Versailles: Free GWriter is enough, don't need GAge.

Wat Phra Kaew: Around this time Scientists are giving about 5 Science, so getting that amount per City seems good.

Torre: By this time you should have 6 TRs from Techs btw. Have it give a Free Drydock instead.

Smithsonian: Like the Free Museum instead. That'll be 2 sets of 2 for Theming Art.

 

[Myrrdin_Emrys]

1. Tavern. +5 sci was actually done by Xony, thought it was somewhat agreed . Anyway, Tavern is supposed to add flavor to the game - wheat is used to make alcohol, food from bison and deer is served, and guests are doing 'bar science' or 'tavern science' in this case. I would leave this bonus for Harbors (taverns were built there) and Market (also related) and remove from other buildings.
2. Gripsholm - these are original parameters from Zwei833's RER. When you build it, your biggest cities usually have ~20 pop, adding +1 is not a big deal, really. And you need a lake nearby which somewhat limits it's effects- it's a very specialized Wonder.
3. Topkapi became a muaseum in 1924. I will add +3G & +2T in Modern Era.
4. Versaille - so, should I remove Golden Age or not?
5. Tower. Will be more expensive. I will add a Garden as prereq - I like such tiny RL connections.
7. WatPhraw. I will leave the effect only for Shrines and Temples. The SQL code will be much simpler this way.
8. Torre. No change.
9. Smithsonian. Salon and Academy exclude each other. You will not get an Academy if there's a Salon, so to fully utilize Smithsonian you musn't build Academy nor Salon. But I would really change it into Menagerie/Museum combo, just like IRL.

1) Ok i did not know it was on five buildings so it seems ok.
4) Is it possible to remplace Golden Age by Free We love the king day in the city its built ? it would be the only wonder to do it, and WLTKD is less powerful than GA (to my opinion) and maybe lower down a bit then the yields from 5 culture to 3 or 2.
5) Good idea !
7) Agreed !
8) Still grumbling about the free harbor which is useless so long after the harbor is unlocked (maybe free drydock ?) but i understand your point of view
9) Really good idea !

 

[Aldebaran1997]

1) Ok i did not know it was on five buildings so it seems ok.
4) Is it possible to remplace Golden Age by Free We love the king day in the city its built ? it would be the only wonder to do it, and WLTKD is less powerful than GA (to my opinion) and maybe lower down a bit then the yields from 5 culture to 3 or 2.
5) Good idea !
7) Agreed !
8) Still grumbling about the free harbor which is useless so long after the harbor is unlocked (maybe free drydock ?) but i understand your point of view
9) Really good idea !

4. Even though there is Mausoleum, yeah, it'll be fun than just free GA.

 

[Aldebaran1997]

I figured out that Topkapi Palace gives faith to Order, which is religious building but not defensive building according to my old thread (https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/is-order-not-a-defensive-building.572662/), and Mine Field. Those 2 buildings don't interact with Defender of the Faith reformation belief, so I think they mustn't interact with Topkapi Palace, either.
Btw, it seems that bastion, which is probably defensive building, doesn't interact with DotF. Is it intended?

 

[Asterix Rage]

9. Smithsonian. Salon and Academy exclude each other. You will not get an Academy if there's a Salon, so to fully utilize Smithsonian you musn't build Academy nor Salon. But I would really change it into Menagerie/Museum combo, just like IRL.

Look at that then :

 

[Infixo]

I figured out that Topkapi Palace gives faith to Order, which is religious building but not defensive building according to my old thread (https://forums.civfanatics.com/threads/is-order-not-a-defensive-building.572662/), and Mine Field. Those 2 buildings don't interact with Defender of the Faith reformation belief, so I think they mustn't interact with Topkapi Palace, either.
Btw, it seems that bastion, which is probably defensive building, doesn't interact with DotF. Is it intended?

It all boils down to the actual definition of 'defensive building'. And I mean based on building features and parameters. In the thread you've linked you just agreed that some buildings are and some are not, without using any definition. Using DotF example may be problematic since this Belief adds yields to manually selected buildings.

There are 2 building parameters related to being defensive - Defense and ExtraCityHitPoints. Topkapi considers building a defensive one if both are >0. Plus to filter out dummy buildings and those granted for free, a filter on Cost>0 and FaithCost>0. In this case, for clean VP there 9 buildings that meet the criteria: ARSENAL, CASTLE, KREPOST (Ostrog), MILITARY_BASE, MINEFIELD, MISSION, ORDER, WALLS, WALLS_OF_BABYLON. EE adds EE_BASTION to the list.

Bomb Shelter didn't fall into Topkapi's criteria because it doesn't increase City's HitPoints (=0), it just increases Defense.

DotF gives yields to: ARSENAL, CASTLE, MILITARY_BASE,WALLS, BOMB_SHELTER. This list is set manually, there's no selection criteria, which I don't think is a good approach. Since the definition uses a generic set "Defensive Buildings" one would expect that all buildings that meet specific criteria will fall into this category. Since there's no common criteria for the list of buildings used in DotF it should just list the specific buildings it's acting upon.

Also, Bastion doesn't interact because I wasn't aware that the list is manual - will fix on on the next release.

Proposition:
- We should agree that building is Defensive if both params >0. This way you can actually have 3 groups of defensive-related buildings, with 1 group being strictly Defensive.
- Mine Field should have one param set to 0, probably ExtraCityHitPoints. IRL MF doesn't actually change City itself, but blocks access, it's harder to get through. Defense is parameter that represents how hard it is to get through.
- Bomb Shelter should have CityHitPoints>0 this way it will work with Topkapi.
- I have no clue why Ostrog and Walls of Babylon are exluded from DotF - they are clearly Defensive buildings, I mean they don't lose their defensive capabilties while being UBs. They should be added to the list.

 

[Infixo]

Look at that then :

Well, that's a pickle . These buildings are set to be mutually exclusive. It seems that game gives a free building without checking this criteria. Not sure if it's ok or it's a bug. I don't recall similar situation in the vanilla game, so there's no reference, is there?
Can't change it anyway, standard game mechanisms are used here.

 

[Myrrdin_Emrys]

for me it's clearly ok but it is not so powerful, salon and academy come so early compared to the wonder that it's really a bet if you need an academy to build a salon and bet everything on the construction of the SMithonian.... it's clearly so risky but not unbalanced.

To me it's like the wonders that give cathedrals or mosque even if your religion does not allow to buy such buildings. Or the great Library which give a free library even if you don't have a council (a requirement for the library)

 

[Infixo]

Great examples. It seems that free building is granted regardless of any other conditions and it's not a bug.

 

[Asterix Rage]

I just let you knows that I reached 1st future tech without any CTD or major bug. Marathon / large map / King level / Japan
At T1163 AD-1991-October.
Of course I got CV during Indus Era but I carried on to test the combo VP-EE. Looks solid then.

My only concern is about a weird border growth when I annex a puppet city (see the pick below)
I've never noticed this before. Is it intended or what? I've got the feeling it could be linked with IGE Mod

Next will be England / Huge map

 

[Infixo]

@Asterix Rage
Congrats for finishing the game . Maybe you want to wait 1-2 days for v4.2 for the new one? I will implement few tweaks that we discussed lately. And if you want to play really long, probably need to disable CV.
Border growth - report it to Gazebo, on GitHub. No idea what this could be.
Big thanks for a very nice comment in resources section

 

[Asterix Rage]

@Asterix Rage
Border growth - report it to Gazebo, on GitHub. No idea what this could be.

The thing is : "VP+EE+CBO-EE+Super Carrier+IGE+Wonder race"
A report like that on GitH will be not taken seriously. And I understand it. I make my investigation first. I noticed the trouble since CBO-EE v4.0 I feel something like jamming between VP/EE/IGE
Also I hope other players will discuss the situation along here