EU Calls For Guantanamo "Anomaly" Shutdown

[Kozmos]

I wonder if you were captured by insurgents and they used the same methods on you.....I doubt you would still be calling them legal.

 

[PrinceOfLeigh]

It doesn't say that the guards let the dogs bite the men however so it was all just a psychological game and I haven't read anywhere that it's against the law to have a dog growl at someone. Can you point me to a link?

For the purposes of this Convention, torture means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.

I'd say dogs growling in front of your face, as alleged, is mental suffering. Link

 

[IglooDame]

I've had a German Shepard try to take a chunk out of my ass when I was in high school. I've been chased by a couple of pitbulls and some big fluffy white thing riding a bike in the country before. I didn't find it overly terrifying. The pitbulls kinda freaked me out and the German Shepard biting me in the left cheek hurt. It doesn't say that the guards let the dogs bite the men however so it was all just a psychological game and I haven't read anywhere that it's against the law to have a dog growl at someone. Can you point me to a link?

How about if they were pointing a gun at you? Would that qualify?

 

[FredLC]

I've had a German Shepard try to take a chunk out of my ass when I was in high school. I've been chased by a couple of pitbulls and some big fluffy white thing riding a bike in the country before. I didn't find it overly terrifying. The pitbulls kinda freaked me out and the German Shepard biting me in the left cheek hurt. It doesn't say that the guards let the dogs bite the men however so it was all just a psychological game and I haven't read anywhere that it's against the law to have a dog growl at someone. Can you point me to a link?

Actually, to threat people is a criminal offense. At last in Brazil it is, and i'm pretty sure in the US as well.

If it is just a meaningless game, consider how much of the soldiers playing it would like to try in reversed roles.

 

[warpus]

If there really isn't anything illegal going on @ Guantanamo Bay, why not close it down and ship all the prisoners to a prison in the U.S?

Guantanamo Bay quite obviously exists due a technicality - it's not on U.S. soil, therefore U.S. laws don't apply there. That's pretty messed up reasoning if you ask me.

 

[Elrohir]

"US spokesman, Elrohir the Wise, had this to say:

'There is a bigger issue here than Guantanamo. For the past couple thousand years, Europe has been embroiled in bloody war almost continuously. Their current peace, under the guise of the "EU" is an anomoly which should be stopped as soon as possible.'
Back to you in the studio, Tom Tucker."

Anyway - The EU doesn't get to call the shots for the US. I, and more importantly, the President and SecDef don't care what they think. Guantanamo will be closed when we decide, not when the EU does.

As for all the "torture" that happens there, I think it's overrated. The prisoners are, by and large, treated fairly well. They are awoken by the call to prayer by Muslim chaplains; there are 113 different Muslim-appropriate meals for them to eat; (Which include traditional dates and lamb) they have their own Korans and prayers beads and mats - these guys have it much better than regular prisoners do. Much better than they deserve.

If there really isn't anything illegal going on @ Guantanamo Bay, why not close it down and ship all the prisoners to a prison in the U.S?

Guantanamo Bay quite obviously exists due a technicality - it's not on U.S. soil, therefore U.S. laws don't apply there. That's pretty messed up reasoning if you ask me.

We couldn't hold them indefinitely under US law. So we hold them elsewhere. It doesn't mean we're branding their feet with hot irons, or anything similarly disgusting.

That's called "the real world", and that's how things are the world over. The US is not a special case.

Moderator Action: Kindly make your points without bashing Europe. Warned.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Kozmos]

Nevermind.

 

[FredLC]

Elrohir - I will never accept you, the US president, or the US secretary of defense, saying what people deserve or not deserve. Not without a proper trial.

The fact that I'm powerless to change what is happening does not make my judgement of it as something wrong one bit wrong.

Regards .

 

[FredLC]

We couldn't hold them indefinitely under US law. So we hold them elsewhere. It doesn't mean we're branding their feet with hot irons, or anything similarly disgusting.

That's called "the real world", and that's how things are the world over. The US is not a special case.

Can't you see what you are saying? That not even your OWN LAWS support what is happening, and you have had to engeneer a way to circunvent them?

That is quite an obvious indication of something being out of it's proper place in this whole charade...

 

[PrinceOfLeigh]

Anyway - The EU doesn't get to call the shots for the US. I, and more importantly, the President and SecDef don't care what they think. Guantanamo will be closed when we decide, not when the EU does.

Yet you expect Iran to listen to the US regarding their nuclear development. If the lives of a few million people weren't at stake I'd say the irony was amusing.

It's hardly a demand to close Gitmo, just advice from those who are friends of the US. You'll note that the letter was ratified by all EU Members States including the UK. I know you'll think you can fight the 'axis of evil' without any help but the impotency of the Coallition in Iraq demonstrates you need all the help you can get, no matter how strong you may be.

 

[Elrohir]

Elrohir - I will never accept you, the US president, or the US secretary of defense, saying what people deserve or not deserve. Not without a proper trial.

The fact that I'm powerless to change what is happening does not make my judgement of it as something wrong one bit wrong.

Regards .

I'm not adverse to the idea of military trials of some, even most prisoners at Guantanamo. But that should be an internal US decision; the EU has no business sticking it's nose where it is not wanted.

Can't you see what you are saying? That not even your OWN LAWS support what is happening, and you have had to engeneer a way to circunvent them?

That is quite an obvious indication of something being out of it's proper place in this whole charade...

America's laws, like any laws created by imperfect humans, have been wrong before. And, to be fair, US law is not being broken in Guantanamo, let's be very clear here. The imprisonement as Guantanamo of terrorists is perfectly legal.

What do you mean? Could you please elaborate?

 

[Mr. Do]

Just think of this in Civ 4 terms: you're happily plodding along, pretending to drown your captives and putting them in stress positions for hour after hour - some of them are even guilty as well, so you needn't ever feel guilty yourself - and then all of a sudden a leaderhead pops up and oh look, it's Napoleon saying to you, "We don't like that camp of yours. You could close it down."; now, you have two choices, you can say, "No, mind your own god-damn business" and get a diplomatic penalty of -1, hardly a game-breaker, or you can say, "Sure, after all, we're treating these people so well!", close it down and get the +1 diplomatic bonus. It's all down to the US, and if it cares what Europe thinks. I don't think it does, really...

 

[bhsup]

Since people are not tortured at Gitmo, and since the prisoners there to not warrant POW rights under the Geneva convention, being illegal combatants instead, the EU can take a flying leap off the nearest cliff as far as them telling us what to do about Gitmo is concerned.

Have a nice day.

 

[Bozo Erectus]

This what pisses me off about this: Austria is all bent out of shape because of Guantanamo (which I agree is a disgrace and also a complete waste of time and resources and should be shut down), but how come they arent upset about all the other gulags around the world, that in comparison make Guantanamo look like an amusement park?

 

[skadistic]

Untill the EU is ready to invade the US and make it close Gitmo it can collectivly kiss our rosey red arse. This goes for the EU its supream courts and the UN.

And the war in Iraq is an extention of the first Gulf war its not a new war and doesnt need to be aproved by congress ( even though it was voted on and passed). It sould have been faught many years ago but the EU and UN are wimps and France , Germany and Russia were in the pockets of Saddam getting kick backs from the Oil for food travesty. I find it insulting that the euros have the gaul to cry foul at every tiny thing the US does that may seem wrong but take no responcability for the thousands apon thousands that die because europe sits by and does nothing.

 

[Elrohir]

This what pisses me off about this: Austria is all bent out of shape because of Guantanamo (which I agree is a disgrace and also a complete waste of time and resources and should be shut down), but how come they arent upset about all the other gulags around the world, that in comparison make Guantanamo look like an amusement park?

You mean like the Chinese camps where they send political dissidents? I imagine they don't want to annoy the Chinese government; they want their bra's and T-shirts at cheap prices. And really - what's a little gulag between friends?

 

[Bozo Erectus]

Exactly. Especially since the Chinese dissidents make alot of those bras

 

[Mr. Do]

It's hilarious seeing the, ahem, patriotic responses to the Austrian guy's statements. USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA!

Also, the reason that we Euroscum complain about Gitmo but ignore others is because we have a hope in hell's chance of convincing the American people that the camp is wrong and should be disbanded. The chances of convincing the Chinese government? Zero. It'd be nice to see official condemnation, though.

 

[FredLC]

I'm not adverse to the idea of military trials of some, even most prisoners at Guantanamo. But that should be an internal US decision; the EU has no business sticking it's nose where it is not wanted.

Because other countries have nothing to say about people being imprisioned without trial?

If the US goes arresting people under obscure claims and hold them without trial indefinitedly, i'd say that the world has pretty good cause to concern itself with it.

Quite frankly, the complains I see on CFC of US citzens saying that US gets "a hard time" because of guantanamo strikes me as funny to say the least. That people dennounce the practise is the LEAST, I in fact think the world would have cause to put a forceful stop to it, and the world is not doing more because it's powerless to.

In the end, it will be a decision of US authorities. Unfortunately, because recent administration, in my evaluation, seens to lack the wisdom and serenity to put the power they whild to good use.

America's laws, like any laws created by imperfect humans, have been wrong before. And, to be fair, US law is not being broken in Guantanamo, let's be very clear here. The imprisonement as Guantanamo of terrorists is perfectly legal.

What do you mean? Could you please elaborate?

All laws are imperfect. But you will notice the relevant fact that the solution here adopt is not law reformation - it's law circunventing. Apparently, US authorities are quite happy with ignoring law instead of bettering it in order to cover other possible prisioners of the kind - possibly, under the premisse that in the future they can do the same again - a possibly true one.

And while i'm not an expert in US law, i'm quite sure Guantanamo is againt the law. That is the very reason why these guys are there, instead of Texas or Colorado or North Carolina...

 

[Berrie]

Untill the EU is ready to invade the US and make it close Gitmo it can collectivly kiss our rosey red arse.

With your reasoning, Iran can also say "kiss my arse" to all the countries saying it has to stop with its nuclear programme?

And why does the present US-administration tell other countries what to do all the time? I found it so hypocrite that Condoleeza Rice asked Russian President Poetin to respect human rights more...