Executive action

[Ziggy Stardust]

That would be correct.

So business as usual as portrayed by partisan hackery. Which in itself is business as usual.

Thanks!

 

[JohnRM]

Wrong.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/medical/penalty.asp

Thus, as I said, the only way not to pay the health care tax penalty is to NOT pay taxes in general. If you do not receive a return, the most likely cause is that you did not pay enough in taxes. I have never heard of a case where an individual did not owe nor receive a return. If you have paid too much, you will have the penalty automatically deducted from your return. If you have paid too little, then the penalty is a secondary concern, because you will facing additional charges.

 

[Kaitzilla]

so people who there is really no sensible reason to deport don't have to be afraid they will be deported.

My brain just whites out on this point, I'm very sorry.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I have never heard of a case where an individual did not owe nor receive a return.

You should add the qualifier 'who filed' right after 'individual'.

 

[Kaitzilla]

Thus, as I said, the only way not to pay the health care tax penalty is to NOT pay taxes in general. If you do not receive a return, the most likely cause is that you did not pay enough in taxes. I have never heard of a case where an individual did not owe nor receive a return. If you have paid too much, you will have the penalty automatically deducted from your return. If you have paid too little, then the penalty is a secondary concern, because you will facing additional charges.

1) Don't withhold enough taxes that you will ever receive a refund. Send the IRS a check for what you owe. (I don't think there are penalties if you do it this way)
2) Don't own a house, rent instead.
3) Never pay the health care tax penalty, ever.

 

[JohnRM]

1) Don't withhold enough taxes that you will ever receive a refund. Send the IRS a check for what you owe, (I don't think there are penalties if you do it this way)
2) Don't own a house, rent instead.
3) Never pay the health care tax penalty, ever.

I still do not think you understand how this works. In Pennsylvania, at least, you are asked to prove that you have current health insurance. If you do not, the amount of tax that you owe is added to your federal filing. It is not truly possible to "pay what you owe" and not pay that tax. The IRS does not make a distinction between what you owe for one thing or another. To them, you either owe or they owe you. If you do not pay, you will be prosecuted.

 

[Kaitzilla]

I still do not think you understand how this works. In Pennsylvania, at least, you are asked to prove that you have current health insurance. If you do not, the amount of tax that you owe is added to your federal filing. It is not truly possible to "pay what you owe" and not pay that tax. The IRS does not make a distinction between what you owe for one thing or another. To them, you either owe or they owe you. If you do not pay, you will be prosecuted.

Considering that the law says:

but the PPACA does not allow for criminal prosecution or the seizure of bank accounts or other property

I would think that the "PPACA failure to obtain health insurance tax" must be kept separate from all other taxes for purposes of enforcement.

If I don't pay income taxes, the IRS would happily jail me for it like Wesley Snipes.
I can't imagine they would throw that away by mixing the PPACA tax into it.

 

[JohnRM]

Considering that the law says:


I would think that the "PPACA failure to obtain health insurance tax" must be kept separate from all other taxes for purposes of enforcement.

If I don't pay income taxes, the IRS would love to jail me for it like Wesley Snipes.
I can't imagine they would throw that away by mixing the PPACA tax into it.

To start, there are a lot of things that the law says that have not been followed through with. There are also a lot of things that the law doesn't say, which the government has done regardless.

Understand, there is a difference between the IRS's ability to differentiate between funds paid toward different taxes and how they enforce law when an individual does not pay his/her taxes. If you do not pay what you owe, they do not write you a letter saying you failed to pay taxes Social Security Taxes, Income Tax, Medicare Tax, or the Health Insurance Tax. They write you a letter saying you owe the IRS a certain amount and failure to pay will result in fines and possible jail time.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

1) Don't withhold enough taxes that you will ever receive a refund. Send the IRS a check for what you owe. (I don't think there are penalties if you do it this way)
2) Don't own a house, rent instead.
3) Never pay the health care tax penalty, ever.

The IRS will receive your check and recognize the amount as 'what you owe less the penalty (which as far as they are concerned you owe)'. At this point you will be charged with failure to pay what you owe, period. This begs the question why you bothered to send the check, since if you are going to be charged with failure to pay what you owe you might as well have kept more for your troubles.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

My brain just whites out on this point, I'm very sorry.

If your brain doesn't white out until that point you are already waaaaaay past any point where you can make an argument that Obama said he couldn't do something and then did it anyway. One thing white's out your brain, the other does not. Apparently he is talking about two different things, one he cannot do, and one that he can.

 

[Kaitzilla]

The IRS will receive your check and recognize the amount as 'what you owe less the penalty (which as far as they are concerned you owe)'. At this point you will be charged with failure to pay what you owe, period. This begs the question why you bothered to send the check, since if you are going to be charged with failure to pay what you owe you might as well have kept more for your troubles.

Avoiding a tax refund can be done without getting a penalty.
http://online.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702303772904577334051286775814

"All a tax refund is, is the government saying to you, 'You've overpaid and here's your change,' " explains Charles Enis, an accounting professor at Penn State University.

The rational thing to do, he says, is to pay just enough taxes throughout the year—via withholding and quarterly estimated payments—to avoid owing a penalty at tax time, and then pay any balance due when you file your return. (The minimum required payment is typically the lesser of 90% of the current year's tax or 100% of the preceding year's tax.) That way, you get an interest-free loan from Uncle Sam instead of Uncle Sam getting an interest-free loan from you.

If your brain doesn't white out until that point you are already waaaaaay past any point where you can make an argument that Obama said he couldn't do something and then did it anyway. One thing white's out your brain, the other does not. Apparently he is talking about two different things, one he cannot do, and one that he can.

Emperor Obama can do lots of things that President Obama can't do.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Avoiding a tax refund can be done without getting a penalty.
http://online.wsj.com/articles/SB10001424052702303772904577334051286775814

That isn't the point. You suggested sending a check for 'what you owe' less the amount of the ACA penalty. The IRS is not going to say 'well he paid this part of what he owes, so he is okay'. They are going to say 'this check does not cover what he owes, let's go get him'. So again it begs the question; why bother sending in partial payment?

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Emperor Obama can do lots of things that President Obama can't do.

The key is that President Obama does one thing that Emperor Obama doesn't; he exists.

 

[Kaitzilla]

That isn't the point. You suggested sending a check for 'what you owe' less the amount of the ACA penalty. The IRS is not going to say 'well he paid this part of what he owes, so he is okay'. They are going to say 'this check does not cover what he owes, let's go get him'. So again it begs the question; why bother sending in partial payment?

Because if you do pay all but the ACA penalty, by law the worst the IRS can do to you is confiscate a tax refund if you have one (which you can avoid), or put a lien on your property which means you can't sell it (so rent).

As far as penalties that accumulate from doing this, I'm not sure what the enforcement policy would be on those.

People keep saying paying the ACA penalty is unavoidable.
I want proof.


I only brought it up because the President decided to start playing Calvinball.
All kinds of possibilities are possible if the President can change laws he doesn't like.

At least with line-item vetos, the law giving the President a power to sort of do this was passed by Congress before it was declared unconstitutional.
http://www.cbsnews.com/news/15-years-after-its-brief-existence-line-item-veto-eludes-presidents/

 

[JohnRM]

That isn't the point. You suggested sending a check for 'what you owe' less the amount of the ACA penalty. The IRS is not going to say 'well he paid this part of what he owes, so he is okay'. They are going to say 'this check does not cover what he owes, let's go get him'. So again it begs the question; why bother sending in partial payment?

I would hate to see you continue to waste your time discussing this with him/her. There is clearly nothing you can do to change his/her mind.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I would hate to see you continue to waste your time discussing this with him/her. There is clearly nothing you can do to change his/her mind.

Tilting at windmills is a hobby. Besides, people other than Kait will be reading this exchange.

Because if you do pay all but the ACA penalty, by law the worst the IRS can do to you is confiscate a tax refund if you have one (which you can avoid), or put a lien on your property which means you can't sell it (so rent).

You are counting on the IRS to differentiate what you paid and what you didn't in a very specific way...which coincides with the only way they could differentiate it that will leave them with limited options for collection.

Can you give me the tiniest plausible reason to believe that they will choose to differentiate in that fashion? I predict that they will assume that whatever part you did not pay coincides with the part that gives them the greatest opportunity to collect, myself.

 

[JohnRM]

Tilting at windmills is a hobby. Besides, people other than Kait will be reading this exchange.



You are counting on the IRS to differentiate what you paid and what you didn't in a very specific way...which coincides with the only way they could differentiate it that will leave them with limited options for collection.

Can you give me the tiniest plausible reason to believe that they will choose to differentiate in that fashion? I predict that they will assume that whatever part you did not pay coincides with the part that gives them the greatest opportunity to collect, myself.

Fair enough.

 

[Kaitzilla]

...
You are counting on the IRS to differentiate what you paid and what you didn't in a very specific way...which coincides with the only way they could differentiate it that will leave them with limited options for collection.

Can you give me the tiniest plausible reason to believe that they will choose to differentiate in that fashion? I predict that they will assume that whatever part you did not pay coincides with the part that gives them the greatest opportunity to collect, myself.

Sure

The technical details of how they will enforce the collection are a bit murky I'll admit.

For those who do not buy insurance, the question for the IRS is how far the agency goes to extract the penalty.

The IRS has said since Congress passed the Affordable Care Act in 2010 that it will follow the letter of law for those who fail to purchase insurance -- that is, Americans will face a fine but will not have their property or bank accounts levied.

"Congress was very careful to make sure that there was nothing too punitive in this bill," then-IRS Commissioner Douglas Shulman said in 2010.

He said at the time that those who fail to purchase insurance will get a letter from the IRS and could have their penalty taken from subsequent tax refunds. But he also made clear the agency "can actually do collection if need be."

But whether Americans' wages can be garnished remains unclear.

The penalty will start relatively small, which has led to speculation that many young and healthy people will simply choose to pay it this year as opposed to buying insurance. It starts at $95 per person or 1 percent of family income, whichever is greater. But over the next couple years, it rises to $695 per person -- while aggressively pursuing these fines could prove politically unpopular, failing to do so could also increase deficit projections.

The IRS itself isn't totally clear on how they will enforce it. (#25 and #26)
http://www.irs.gov/uac/Questions-and-Answers-on-the-Individual-Shared-Responsibility-Provision


However, this site seems pretty plain:
I'll use it as my tiniest plausible reason.
http://obamacarefacts.com/obamacare-individual-mandate/

What Happens If I Don’t Pay the Individual Mandate Fee?

The only way for the IRS to collect the fee for not having health insurance, if you choose not to pay it, is for them to withhold the money you would get back from the IRS after filing your income tax returns. The IRS cannot enforce the Individual Shared Responsibility provision with jail time, liens, or any other of typical methods of collection.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

So lets get this thread back on the topic of executive orders and how president Obama is a totalitarian emperor dictator because he's issued the least amount of executive order per year since Grover Cleveland (the first, 1885–1889)

Or as this socialist rag calls it: When It Comes To Abuse Of Presidential Power, Obama Is A Mere Piker (figures on the site are outdated, there have been a sub-par amount in the last few years. The slacker.)

So explain to this befuddled Dutchy who is ignorant in the ways of American Politicks how this image of Obama is based on something else than partisan emitted arsegravy. Explain using arguments based in reality and backed up by statistics instead of youtube clips.

Or as my bipartisan friend phrases it:

Emperor Obama can do lots of things that President Obama can't do.

Well said Sir. He can't act as a dictator, but he acts as a dictator.

He's the Quantum Physics of presidents. When he's criticized he's a Dictator and not a Dictator, but when observed one of those qualifiers always fizzles out. (Leaving the cop-out wide open here, because I'm a nice guy. Also pointing out the cop-out, because I'm also not a nice guy, staying in the quantum spirit of things )

It's the kind of executive orders he orders isn't it? The kind which one disagrees with? Amiright fellers? High five!

 

[Timsup2nothin]

Sure

The technical details of how they will enforce the collection are a bit murky I'll admit.

Yeah, a bit.

And no matter how you slice 'this is how they will enforce this part of your bill while that is how they will enforce that part of your bill'...there is still no one, anywhere, explaining who gets to determine what part of your bill you did pay, and what part you didn't. Your tax bill, as determined by the bottom line of your tax form, does not allow for itemization of payment. You can say all you want that you paid all the taxes but didn't pay the penalty for the ACA, but if the IRS says "no, you paid that ACA penalty, it is a corresponding amount of your taxes that we are here to collect", how would you argue the point? If they say "your payment was prorated over all parts of your total, so you paid 95% of your taxes and you paid 95% of your ACA penalty, and we are here for the remaining 5% of both," how would you argue that they can't garnish your wages when most of what you owe is in fact taxes?

If they agree that you paid your taxes in full but not the ACA penalty you have a great point, but you are basically asking the IRS to cooperate with you in limiting their ability to collect from you. I can't say I have as much experience with the IRS as some people, but from what experience I've had and what I have heard about them you may as well ask Godzilla to use his breath to heat your leftovers.