Fall Further - The Original Thread

[Psychic_Llamas]

what about the tower that Perpentach was entombed in for so long? provide mind mana anyone? small chance of giving any unit to enter the square crazed promotion?

 

[Vehem]

Version 042
0. Updated to FfH 033b
1. Major improvements to the list of available promotion prereqs (useful for modders).
2. Bannor Melee and Archery units gain Guardsman automatically - no longer depends on training yard.
3. Bannor Training Yard grants small defense bonus and reduces maintenance by a small amount.
4. Ljosalfar Archers gain Dexterous automatically - no longer depends on archery range.
5. Ljosalfar Archery Ranges grant +3 experience to archery units.
6. Hippus Horsemen gain Horselord automatically - no longer depends on stable.
7. Hippus Stable removed (original reason is gone and no need for a further boost).
8. Svartalfar Recon units gain Sinister automatically - no longer depends on hunting lodge.
9. Svartalfar Hunting Lodge removed (original reason is gone and no need for a further boost).
10. Added "Stalker" promotion - allows unit to automatically gain "Forest Stealth" (become invisible) when in Forests/Ancient Forests.
11. Added "Shrouded Woods" - Requires: Svartalfar, Tracking. Grants the "Stalker" promotion to any recon unit visiting the city.
12. Added "Crow" unit - unique hawk replacement for the Sidar. Increased range and visibility, does not require hunting lodge (Sidar hunters are now Divided Souls - no one to carry them early game)
13. Archers (and unique variants) gain Ranged Attack. Range 1, Strength 2, Cannot reduce enemy below 80% health.
14. Longbows (and unique variants) gain Ranged Attack. Range 1, Strength 3, Cannot reduce enemy below 70% health.
15. Crossbows gain Ranged Attack. Range 1, Strength 5, Cannot reduce enemy below 60% health.
16. Arquebus gains Ranged Attack. Range 1, Strength 5, Cannot reduce enemy below 40% health.
17. Flurry gains Ranged Attack. Range 1, Strength 6, Cannot reduce enemy below 50% health.
18. Marksman gains Ranged Attack. Range 2, Strength 5, Cannot reduce enemy below 60% health.
19. Gilden Silveric gains Ranged Attack (as per Archer).
20. Arthendain gains Ranged Attack (as per Crossbow).
21. Horse Archers gain Ranged Attack. Range 1, Strength 2, Cannot reduce enemy below 85% health.
22. Catapult rebalanced for city attack/defense. Base strength and Ranged strength of 1. +300% when attacking or defending a city (effective strength 4).
23. Trebuchet rebalanced for city attack/defense. Base strength and Ranged strength of 1. +400% when attacking or defending a city (effective strength 5).
24. Cannon rebalanced for city attack/defense. Base strength and Ranged strength of 2. +300% when attacking or defending a city (effective strength 8).
25. Dwarven Cannon rebalanced for city attack/defense. Base strength and Ranged strength of 2. +400% when attacking or defending a city (effective strength 10).
26. Archers defending cities with Palisades or Walls gain "Wall Defender" promotion (1 first strike and +20% city defense).
27. Sect of Flies re-added. Champion UU for Infernals and spawned by Hellfire event. Has Demon, Corpseflies and Stigmata promotions.
28. Planar gate creatures arrive with experience equal to 1/4 of the Armageddon Counter (idea from Magister)
29. Odio's Prison provides Body Mana (idea from Magister)
30. Changed the Worker Mod promotions to use Kael's WorkRateModify tag instead of Xienwolf's WorkRateChange. (no in-game difference)
31. Guardsman promotion grants a bonus of 3% defense for each unit with the promotion in a ciity.
32. Partial techs are now a possible result from goody huts. Full techs are less common at higher difficulties and impossible at the highest levels.

 

[Vehem]

Off the top of my head, the volcano that the Cualli hid in [...]

what about the tower that Perpentach was entombed in for so long? provide mind mana anyone? small chance of giving any unit to enter the square crazed promotion?

Both nice ideas and not too hard to find artwork for at all

Do we know much about the "Mindless Guardians" that protected the tower? Were they simply golems or something animated by magics within the tower? If it's the former they'd probably be destroyed in the breakout, but the latter leaves us some interesting options.

===

I like the idea of a few FF specific landmarks - any suggestions for the in-game effect of the volcano?

 

[thomas.berubeg]

They were golems ... but you could play with the lore a bit

 

[thomas.berubeg]

the volcano (simple effect, but still) could erupt occasionally, starting fires in areas around it, as well as increasing the food output of the surrounding tiles. (however, an improvment in the sourrounding tiles has a chance of being destroyed.)

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

great job on 0.42! I'm gonna play till my eyes bleed

 

[Ahriman]

Nice patch, thanks.
I'm not sure I like the siege unit changes. Cannons in particular should be useable as field artillery, and I don't like that siege units are now even easier to assassinate.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Perpentach was imprisoned in the Tower of Eyes (which is of course a wonder, although you could change it to a unique feature if you wish. That would probably be more appropriate, as it has been around since the Age of Magic.), which was guarded by Golems golems that were probably created by Kyorlin himself.




It looks like you included a lot of stuff I was planning to. I may have to play FF when I get back to my apartment (right now I'm in a school computer lab with nothing to do during one of many 1 hour breaks), instead of working to get MagisterModmod out again. (In case you didn't notice, I have again failed to meet my release date goal, and am again back in school and so will probably not be able to find much time for modding.)



I am personally of the opinion that Crossbowmen and Arquebi shouldn't be that effective at ranged attacks, and Longbowmen and Marksmen should be more so. Crossbows and early firearms were not nearly as useful at range as a well trained archer. I'm going to have them as 2 separate archery lines, with the crossbows/arquebi stronger in direct combat but Longbowmen/marksmen far more effective at range.

 

[arkham4269]

I'm going to have them as 2 separate archery lines, with the crossbows/arquebi stronger in direct combat but Longbowmen/marksmen far more effective at range.

While I realize there is a lot of magical healing available in a Fantasy setting, but historically one of the reason guns, even the early ones, did so well is the wounds they cause. I once, as a lad, asked my history teacher Dad that if an Apache warrior was supposedly able to crank out X many arrows (lots) versus Y amount of bullets (few) by the Army, how come the Army generally won? His answer was that if an arrow doesn't kill you, the wounds are easily treated, especially initially. Bullets not only cause secondary exit wounds, but often shatter and thus cause festering wounds. So it would seem that fire-arms should get a damage bonus as well as obviously having a negative versus fire attacks. (Are they more susceptible now? I'm not sure)

With that in mind, perhaps the fire-arms should have some of affect like "disease" in that they cause nasty wounds that are harder to heal w/o magic. Plus, perhaps a promotion for cannons would be "Canister" which provides a bonus versus ground units. Plus, I would think that if possible, that perhaps the first cannon should be a bombard and it should be limited to roads. I seem to recall there is a way to make a unit restricted to roads. This would more accurately reflect the early cannon instead of jumping from trebuchets to directly to more sophisticated artillery.

 

[Tarquelne]

Oh boy, ranged attacks!

 

[Vehem]

While I realize there is a lot of magical healing available in a Fantasy setting, but historically one of the reason guns, even the early ones, did so well is the wounds they cause. I once, as a lad, asked my history teacher Dad that if an Apache warrior was supposedly able to crank out X many arrows (lots) versus Y amount of bullets (few) by the Army, how come the Army generally won? His answer was that if an arrow doesn't kill you, the wounds are easily treated, especially initially. Bullets not only cause secondary exit wounds, but often shatter and thus cause festering wounds. So it would seem that fire-arms should get a damage bonus as well as obviously having a negative versus fire attacks. (Are they more susceptible now? I'm not sure)

With that in mind, perhaps the fire-arms should have some of affect like "disease" in that they cause nasty wounds that are harder to heal w/o magic. Plus, perhaps a promotion for cannons would be "Canister" which provides a bonus versus ground units. Plus, I would think that if possible, that perhaps the first cannon should be a bombard and it should be limited to roads. I seem to recall there is a way to make a unit restricted to roads. This would more accurately reflect the early cannon instead of jumping from trebuchets to directly to more sophisticated artillery.

Aye - the problem of infected and aggravated wounds from firearms covers that side nicely, whilst the sheer armour penetrating ability of crossbows (which allowed peasants to fell armoured knights) explains the benefit there. Flurries are still amongst the most potent however to represent the excellent archery skills and rate of fire that they possess.

Stepping away from that for a second however, there is a definite decision to ensure that late game units are better than early game units - for purely mechanical reasons. I do like what Magister suggested about Firearms/Crossbows being better "direct combat" weapons whilst archers provide ranged support - though as mentioned that would really be opening up a second "archery" line. For the moment I'd like to concentrate on balancing the current one in the role of "stack support" - weakening enemy stacks and allowing other units to deal direct damage, as well as the role of "city defender". The ability to damage a few units from the stack before they get chance to attack, as well as the benefits of archery units on walls makes them much better suited to that role than they were.

===

I actually quite liked the way that siege units played in the test games, though as I was playing randomly and got Bannor, the issue of assassination didn't really come up. It could easily be considered "sabotage" as opposed to assassination, though I'm also wondering about making "non-living" units immune to assassination. In older versions of real D&D, skills like Backstab and Sneak Attack didn't work on certain types of creature (notably undead) and it makes sense that sneaking up behind a catapult wouldn't really do that much good...

EDIT: Current thinking is;

• Marksman does not consider non-living units as "weak targets".
• This would mean that Demons, Angels, Undead, Elementals, Illusions and Puppets all become immune to the assassin's special targetting. They'd fight the assassin as normal, unless the assassin can find a better target in the stack. Rationale could be that assassinating such unusual beings is not quite as easy as killing injured mortals.
• It also means that siege units, equipment and ships would be immune to being targetted by assassins. This is the real feature we're after.
• Puppets would be granted the "TargetWeakestCounter" ability (same as Guardsman) to allow them to continue to act as defense against assassins for their puppeteers.

Any thoughts are welcomed, especially if you can think of some loophole that would be exploitable... Hopefully though this will also close some existing problems regarding assassinating things you shouldn't...

 

[scutarii]

research bonus from huts is way too small: NOW I prefer money , it helps to keep research at 100%, or warrior, scout. in turn 8 Keelyn was eliminated and NB! loki was killed: so was loki already in game...

Tested in deity level, though, that may explain small research bonus from huts

 

[Vehem]

research bonus from huts is way too small: NOW I prefer money , it helps to keep research at 100%, or warrior, scout. in turn 8 Keelyn was eliminated and NB! loki was killed: so was loki already in game...

Tested in deity level, though, that may explain small research bonus from huts

Goodies for Deity are currently...

            <Goodies>
                <GoodyType>GOODY_LOW_GOLD</GoodyType>
                <GoodyType>GOODY_LOW_GOLD</GoodyType>
                <GoodyType>GOODY_LOW_GOLD</GoodyType>
                <GoodyType>GOODY_LOW_GOLD</GoodyType>
                <GoodyType>GOODY_LOW_GOLD</GoodyType>
                <GoodyType>GOODY_MAP</GoodyType>
                <GoodyType>GOODY_WARRIOR</GoodyType>
                <GoodyType>GOODY_SCOUT</GoodyType>
                <GoodyType>GOODY_EXPERIENCE</GoodyType>
                <GoodyType>GOODY_HEALING</GoodyType>
                <GoodyType>GOODY_BEAKERS_LOW</GoodyType>
                <GoodyType>GOODY_BEAKERS_LOW</GoodyType> 
                <GoodyType>GOODY_BARBARIANS_WEAK</GoodyType>
                <GoodyType>GOODY_BARBARIANS_WEAK</GoodyType>
                <GoodyType>GOODY_BARBARIANS_STRONG</GoodyType>
                <GoodyType>GOODY_BARBARIANS_STRONG</GoodyType>
                <GoodyType>GOODY_BARBARIANS_STRONG</GoodyType>
                <GoodyType>GOODY_BARBARIANS_STRONG</GoodyType>
                <GoodyType>GOODY_BARBARIANS_STRONG</GoodyType>
                <GoodyType>GOODY_BARBARIANS_STRONG</GoodyType>
            </Goodies>

So there's a couple of low beakers and no full techs in there. A low beaker goody is 12-30% of the current tech, roughly bell-curved (values near 20% are more likely). If you're researching a very early tech, it's a fairly small bonus (as intended - big awards in the early game are the most unbalancing).

For the high beaker goodies on lower difficulties it provides 12-50% of a tech.

 

[Tarquelne]

I'm happy to see Sect of Flies back and maggot-ridden. Wall Defender's a great idea.


The damage limits on the ranged attacks strike me as too high. I messed around with ranged attacks for archery-types in a non-FFH2 mod and ended up using much lower figures. Otherwise ranged units became the dominant factor ("Queen of the Battlefield" - more like artillery) and the AI couldn't cope.

We'll see though - I look forward to trying this out.

EDIT: Current thinking is;

I like Assassins also acting as saboteurs - I think Catapults/Cannons as well worth taking out, even if I'd rather get a mage. But Assassins not acting as saboteurs is fine, too. And opens up a slot for a Saboteur unit. (I consider Assassins going after workers, hawks etc. a far greater problem.)

I'd rather Puppets not get TargetWeakestCounter - not automatically. I'd prefer an earned caster-promotion giving Puppets (and maybe other summoned creatures) TargetWeakestCounter.

 

[Vehem]

The damage limits on the ranged attacks strike me as too high. I messed around with ranged attacks for archery-types in a non-FFH2 mod and ended up using much lower figures. Otherwise ranged units became the dominant factor ("Queen of the Battlefield" - more like artillery) and the AI couldn't cope.

I'd definitely appreciate feedback on this one. With the relative weakness of the ranged strike, it'll be very rare that any single unit can bring the target down to the limit - it'll probably take around 3 archers targeting the same enemy unit to inflict that 20% damage. The archers will also not be receiving experience for the attack. If the three archers had attacked directly, the second one may well have killed the enemy unit and gained experience.

That's the theory at least - I'll review based on feedback once people have played a few games.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

I typically don't allow ranged units to do as much damage either. My Marksmen, however, can kill at range. (They also have level requirements, and the fact that ranged attacks don't give xp makes then quite hard to get.)

 

[hbar]

What about promotions that affect the power/damage cap of ranged attack? That might be something nice to add to the drill line, but for balance issues it might be better to have a new promo line that has no effect on direct attacks...

I like the idea of constraining large siege weapons to roads, and that raises another question...can you raze your own roads now?

 

[Ahriman]

The XP bonus for units created by Planar gates is bugged.

Python traceback:
File "CvEventInterface", line 23, onEvent
File "CvCustomEventManager", line 135, in handleEvent
File "CvCustomEventManager", line 146, in_handleDefaultEvent
File "CvEventManager", line 2155, in onCityDoTurn
Argument Error: Python argument types in CyUnit.setExerpience(CyUnit, int) did not match C++ signature
set Experience(Class CyUnit {lvalue}, int, int)


Save attached.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

all I can say about 0.42 is wow! just when I was starting to think that merging DCM with FFH would be the best thing ever, you go and add ranged attack to FF

it's awesome, and I like hbar's idea of linking the "drill" promotions ( currently kinda useless ) to this new ability.

I'm currently playing a game and a couple of things happened that seemed kinda strange so they may be bugs or not:

1) is it normal that my starting scout with Austrin killed a polar bear and gained something like 3 or 4 levels with just that single fight?

2) I popped a goody hut with a rogue ( noble difficulty ) , and it gave me hunting+some beakers towards the tech I was researching ( fishing IIRC ) . is that correct?

edit: also, the user interface seems to be pre-FFH 0.33, with the icons for somnium and scenarios replaced by corporations and espionage. the city screen looks different from FFH 0.33 IIRC. is this intended?

 

[Skitters]

10. Added "Stalker" promotion - allows unit to automatically gain "Forest Stealth" (become invisible) when in Forests/Ancient Forests.
11. Added "Shrouded Woods" - Requires: Svartalfar, Tracking. Grants the "Stalker" promotion to any recon unit visiting the city.

oooh cheeky! I was wondering if something similar could be given to the Malakim in desert terrain? The thinking being that most civs would use caravan routes, whilst the Malakim would be happier off the beaten track using their desert lore to navigate around and move across dunes that to other civs would be impassable.