Fall Further - The Original Thread

[[to_xp]Gekko]

a couple thing I've noted in my current Austrin game ...

first of all, Trackers ( ranger replacement, upgraded from explorers ) don't get the "ignore terrain movement cost" ability that explorers get, right? just asking cuz I was having lots of fun with my explorer party zipping around the map and when I upgraded them they were way slower although more powerful

I think there is an issue with pathfinding when you group units that have the "ignore movement cost" with other units that do not get that, though. I have a stack made of Harmatt ( ignores movement blabla ) + some high-lvl trackers that do NOT have the ignore movement. and I can clearly see that the pathfinding algorithm behaves like the party could ignore terrain cost, which leads to it happily going through hills and forests and basically moving one tile per turn and taking ages to move around. pretty annoying

 

[Vehem]

[QUOTE='[to_xp]I think there is an issue with pathfinding when you group units that have the "ignore movement cost" with other units that do not get that, though. I have a stack made of Harmatt ( ignores movement blabla ) + some high-lvl trackers that do NOT have the ignore movement. and I can clearly see that the pathfinding algorithm behaves like the party could ignore terrain cost, which leads to it happily going through hills and forests and basically moving one tile per turn and taking ages to move around. pretty annoying [/QUOTE]

Interesting - I would have thought it would work out the best path for the stack rather than using the best path for an individual unit, but I can kinda follow the logic. Will add that to the "odd things the AI does" list.

 

[Caradoc]

Patch K - Download
1. Corrected issue with removing resource blocks by declaring peace.
2. Basium will no longer steal cities other than the one that built the Mercurian Gate.

====

There's still one possibly significant issue we're looking at regarding the Feats - will address that in a quick-fix patch like this once it's solved.

Good Lord! I turn my back and you pump out three more patches. Awesome!

 

[MagisterCultuum]

You accidentally gave both the Dimensional 1 and 3 spells to the dimensional 1 promotion.


I really think you should rework the palaces and unique features to include the new mana types in the next patch too.

Edit: I just noticed an even bigger problem: None of the 2nd or 3rd level promotions in the new spell spheres requires a channeling promotion. Letting adepts use all the spells in these spheres seem too strong.

Chanters should probably start with Dimensional 1 now.

The Ice sphere seems incredibly weak. Ice III especially. It is more like a level 1 spell (well, would be if it weren't ranged). Frostlings are also the worst summon, weaker even that Skeletons although not permanent. Stasis seems ok, but it seems like it should also slow the target units down.

 

[MaJa]

Hello, being new to this forum i want to thank everyone who has worked on this fantastic Mod.
In my current game playing with the Mazatl i can't seem to found the order of the wyvern allthough i have all 12 wyvern guards. when i go look in the worldbuilder for wich requirements it has all it states is "never". Does this mean it can never be build or am i missing something.
I am using patch I

 

[Darksaber1]

You need to use their worldspell to found it.

 

[MaJa]

You need to use their worldspell to found it.

Yes, i know but after creation off the last guard they do not have a button for their worldspell anymore. so i can't cast it

 

[Darksaber1]

Oh, well that's a bug then. (Unless Vehem made their worldspell have a diffrent prerequsite then the Guardians)

 

[Ingvar]

CtD, patch K. Enter on turn 412, crash comes on 413. Could anyone reproduce?

 

[xienwolf]

Mazatl offered me open borders, not sure of anything else that happened between those turns. No crash for me. Autoplay has made it to turn 418 now and seems to be going strong (though slow, my machine isn't quite up to snuff for late game living)

 

[Vehem]

Oh, well that's a bug then. (Unless Vehem made their worldspell have a diffrent prerequsite then the Guardians)

Only prereqs are Mazatl civ, 12 Wyvern Guardians and inCity (must be in the city you want to found it in).

You accidentally gave both the Dimensional 1 and 3 spells to the dimensional 1 promotion.

I really think you should rework the palaces and unique features to include the new mana types in the next patch too.

Edit: I just noticed an even bigger problem: None of the 2nd or 3rd level promotions in the new spell spheres requires a channeling promotion. Letting adepts use all the spells in these spheres seem too strong.

Chanters should probably start with Dimensional 1 now.

Sorted - first couple were definite mistakes, Chanters did have Dimensional1 briefly but I must have reverted the file. Added back now.

The Ice sphere seems incredibly weak. Ice III especially. It is more like a level 1 spell (well, would be if it weren't ranged). Frostlings are also the worst summon, weaker even that Skeletons although not permanent. Stasis seems ok, but it seems like it should also slow the target units down.

Ice3 can actually be crippling to an enemy economy. 3 or 4 casts near a city will reduce most tiles to either 1 Food Tundra or no yield Ice, meaning that most of the hammers and food will be lost for 20 turns or so. If the target civ cannot remove your archmage quickly, you can pretty much lock down it's production and starve him with a mini-Age of Ice. It's not going to help you to capture a city or help you overrun a minor enemy, but it *will* help you win a tough war where out producing the enemy is important.

Frostlings were discussed a bit and had various proposed amendments. An early idea was to have a pair summon at once (dismissed as too powerful for an Adept spell) whilst a later idea was that they might be made pseudo-permanent so long as they remain on Tundra/Ice terrain types (they would technically be temporary, with a +1 duration per turn promotion when on the correct terrain - this also means that they would not be limited in number - again very potent for an adept).

In the end though, I took the view that a temporary summon has a different use to a permanent one - they can be summoned to attack instantly rather than a turn later. I'm also of the opinion that an (overly) strong first tier summon is a feature of the Death sphere and it probably isn't best to balance against that. Skeletons are after all stronger than the adept, immune to several damage types and have no counter-promotion (they have no unit combat so Shock etc have no effect).

One idea that I am tempted by however is making the promotion Ice3 prevent the casting of Summon Frostling and instead enable a second spell of Summon Ice Golem. This would make Ice a somewhat unique sphere in that it's level 1 spell is "upgraded" by reaching Archmage level. It also means that you don't have a useless summon late game. Early game however, a free "warrior" on demand has it's uses, though I agree it's the weakest one in the game - it's one of only two level 1 combat-summons...

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

One idea that I am tempted by however is making the promotion Ice3 prevent the casting of Summon Frostling and instead enable a second spell of Summon Ice Golem. This would make Ice a somewhat unique sphere in that it's level 1 spell is "upgraded" by reaching Archmage level. It also means that you don't have a useless summon late game. Early game however, a free "warrior" on demand has it's uses, though I agree it's the weakest one in the game - it's one of only two level 1 combat-summons...

YES PLEASE!

(another idea is make the frostlings weaker but have ice affinity)

 

[ushram]

Since the last 2 patches, in mp games, we are getting OOS on the 2nd turn every game. We both reinstalled the game with the correct patch and did a fresh install of FF as well. We tried turning off multiple options and enabling others. We just tried about 10 games and got the OOS on the same turn every time I can give u more details on IRC Vehem.

 

[Psychic_Llamas]

also, vehem, were you ever going to merge scions with FF? im interested to see how they go but i cant be bothered downloading another mod...

 

[Tarquelne]

also, vehem, were you ever going to merge scions with FF? im interested to see how they go but i cant be bothered downloading another mod...

I believe it's scheduled for 043.

Until the playtest-fest that'll probably result from inclusion in FF they're pretty much done... though I was hoping for new graphics for a couple of buildings... they've been made, IIRC, and just need to be uploaded.

 

[woodelf]

though I was hoping for new graphics for a couple of buildings... they've been made, IIRC, and just need to be uploaded.

Mine or from P_L? I sent the Hall of the Covenant to winddelay for a shadow, but he's been busy IRL.

 

[Falc]

Ice3 can actually be crippling to an enemy economy. 3 or 4 casts near a city will reduce most tiles to either 1 Food Tundra or no yield Ice, meaning that most of the hammers and food will be lost for 20 turns or so. If the target civ cannot remove your archmage quickly, you can pretty much lock down it's production and starve him with a mini-Age of Ice. It's not going to help you to capture a city or help you overrun a minor enemy, but it *will* help you win a tough war where out producing the enemy is important.

Starving a city before you raze it is also a nice way to limit the Armageddon Count increase

 

[Tarquelne]

Mine or from P_L? I sent the Hall of the Covenant to winddelay for a shadow, but he's been busy IRL.

The Significant Look was directed at P_L.

I'm pleased to know there's another from you coming sometime.

 

[MaxAstro]

I'd like to second Magister's request for updated palace mana. At the very least, the civs that belong to the new mana types (Sheiam for Dimensional, Kuriotates for Creation, Doviello for Force, and Illian for Ice) should be fixed to have it.

Speaking of, please, please, please make the Sheiam Death, Dimensional, Fire, not Death, Dimensional, Chaos... Nothing against Chaos mana, but the Sheiam really benefit from having Fire mana from their palace, and it seems more appropriate to them than Chaos.

Also, as an aside, what was the reasoning for making Reagents revealed by Sorcery? I'm not completely against the idea, but it is odd to have them as such a late game resource (compared to what they were before, I mean)...

 

[Mailbox]

Ice3 can actually be crippling to an enemy economy. 3 or 4 casts near a city will reduce most tiles to either 1 Food Tundra or no yield Ice, meaning that most of the hammers and food will be lost for 20 turns or so. If the target civ cannot remove your archmage quickly, you can pretty much lock down it's production and starve him with a mini-Age of Ice. It's not going to help you to capture a city or help you overrun a minor enemy, but it *will* help you win a tough war where out producing the enemy is important.

Frostlings were discussed a bit and had various proposed amendments. An early idea was to have a pair summon at once (dismissed as too powerful for an Adept spell) whilst a later idea was that they might be made pseudo-permanent so long as they remain on Tundra/Ice terrain types (they would technically be temporary, with a +1 duration per turn promotion when on the correct terrain - this also means that they would not be limited in number - again very potent for an adept).

In the end though, I took the view that a temporary summon has a different use to a permanent one - they can be summoned to attack instantly rather than a turn later. I'm also of the opinion that an (overly) strong first tier summon is a feature of the Death sphere and it probably isn't best to balance against that. Skeletons are after all stronger than the adept, immune to several damage types and have no counter-promotion (they have no unit combat so Shock etc have no effect).

One idea that I am tempted by however is making the promotion Ice3 prevent the casting of Summon Frostling and instead enable a second spell of Summon Ice Golem. This would make Ice a somewhat unique sphere in that it's level 1 spell is "upgraded" by reaching Archmage level. It also means that you don't have a useless summon late game. Early game however, a free "warrior" on demand has it's uses, though I agree it's the weakest one in the game - it's one of only two level 1 combat-summons...

I really like the idea of the Ice III promotion promoting an attrition tactic for slowly grinding down your enemy. Having ice be slow to cause damage but very potent in terms of long term effects is very thematic and appropriate.