[Feature] Turkic Civilization

[BenZL43]

Please consider renaming Tureng Tepe (a remnant from Rhye's original CNM) to Gorgan and all its names, which is 17km away from Tureng Tepe.
Tureng Tepe is a bronze age settlement in Neolithic era near the Caspian Sea, as illustrated in your screenshot. It probably wasn't as important in vanilla RFC as now because there was too little interaction in that region when designed.

Gorgan, or as known before 1937 as Astarabad could have the following settings:
Founded by Persia: Varkana (Achaemenid name)
Founded by Greece: Hyrcania (Classical Greece name, also during Alexandrian era)

Conquered by Persia: Gurgan (Sassanid name)

Once the city is conquered/founded by the steppes civilization (Mongol, Turks, Seljuk), the city name shall change to Astarabad (from Varkana, Hyrcania or Gurgan), even for Iran as this is the name during Qajar dynasty.

 

[brett0007]

On the Ottomans and Turks issue perhaps a distinction between Turkish and Turkic should be made?

Have the Ottomans spawn not as the Ottomans but as the Rum sultanate that breaks away from the Turkics if they successfully conquer Anatolia from the Byzantines. (spawn 1070 or later assuming Anatolia falls) Then have them bear the brunt of the mongol invasion instead of the Byzantines(assuming they lost Anatolia) and collapse with them respawning as the Ottomans proper. Shift the Ottoman spawn to 1360(conquest of Adrianople) and beef up there spawn. Make losing Anatolia a suspended death sentence to the Byzantines. (Perhaps if you want to be merciful if a player as the Byzantines can reconquer it and remain stable don't have the Ottoman respawn?)

That way you can keep separate Turkey and the various Turkic khanates. And assuming a Byzantine player can stop the Turkics prevent Turkey from ever forming.(Kinda strange when as the Byzantines you repel the Seljuk's then have the Turks later rise up)

Lastly beef up the Anatolian invasion by the Turkics, Byzantium surviving should really only ever happen if the player is Byzantium. AI wise it should be a freak aberrant event at best.

 

[Leoreth]

On the Ottomans and Turks issue perhaps a distinction between Turkish and Turkic should be made

That's already the case, to clarify it is:

"The Turks", Turkestan, Turkic
"The Ottomans", Turkey, Turkish

For selection screen title, civilization name and civilization adjective respectively. The latter are also referred to as "Ottomans" everywhere in the code to avoid confusion.

Have the Ottomans spawn not as the Ottomans but as the Rum sultanate that breaks away from the Turkics if they successfully conquer Anatolia from the Byzantines. (spawn 1070 or later assuming Anatolia falls) Then have them bear the brunt of the mongol invasion instead of the Byzantines(assuming they lost Anatolia) and collapse with them respawning as the Ottomans proper. Shift the Ottoman spawn to 1360(conquest of Adrianople) and beef up there spawn. Make losing Anatolia a suspended death sentence to the Byzantines. (Perhaps if you want to be merciful if a player as the Byzantines can reconquer it and remain stable don't have the Ottoman respawn?)

That way you can keep separate Turkey and the various Turkic khanates. And assuming a Byzantine player can stop the Turkics prevent Turkey from ever forming.(Kinda strange when as the Byzantines you repel the Seljuk's then have the Turks later rise up)

Lastly beef up the Anatolian invasion by the Turkics, Byzantium surviving should really only ever happen if the player is Byzantium. AI wise it should be a freak aberrant event at best.

I think that distinction is already well established the way it is now (Ottomans spawning as the Ottoman beylik), what would be gained by complicating things further? I understand that things like the Seljuk conquest of the Middle East and Anatolia still need to be represented, as well as maybe some Ottoman spawn condition based on that.

 

[brett0007]

That's already the case, to clarify it is:

"The Turks", Turkestan, Turkic
"The Ottomans", Turkey, Turkish

For selection screen title, civilization name and civilization adjective respectively. The latter are also referred to as "Ottomans" everywhere in the code to avoid confusion.


I think that distinction is already well established the way it is now (Ottomans spawning as the Ottoman beylik), what would be gained by complicating things further? I understand that things like the Seljuk conquest of the Middle East and Anatolia still need to be represented, as well as maybe some Ottoman spawn condition based on that.

The idea wasn't to needlessly complicate things, people just seemed to be somewhat confused about how and when the Turks ended up in Turkey so I was proposing what I considered a plausible way to historically represent the progression from from the Turkic conquest up to the recognizably Turkish Ottomons

 

[Leoreth]

I think it's sufficient to treat it more loosely. If some kind of Turkic conquest of the Middle East has taken place then that is sufficient background for an Ottoman spawn, even if they never conquered Anatolia directly.

 

[Darnokthemage]

Does this civ represent the khwarezmian empire too?

 

[brett0007]

on gp names I have a few

Seljuk era
Omar Khayyam - mathematician and astronomer, also a famous poet
Al-Ghazali - Muslim philosopher, theologian and jurist
Ibn al-Jawzi- jurist and founder of an Islamic school of jurisprudence
Nizami Aruzi- Persian poet
Al-Isfizari- Persian mathematician
Ayn-al-Qużāt Hamadānī- Islamic jurisprudent and poet(Ayn-al-Qużāt is a title that translates roughly as pearl of the judges)
Alī ibn Aḥmad al-Nasawī- Persian mathematician
Nizam al-Mulk- Vizier of the seljuk empire after Alp Arslan's death wrote the Siyasatnama, a treatise on governing justly and within Islam
Aq Sunqur al-Hajib- Governor of Aleppo under Malik Shah I, reformed the laws to reduce crime and corruption.
Nur-al-din- ruler of Aleppo who fought the crusaders.

 

[Steb]

on gp names I have a few

Seljuk era
Omar Khayyam - mathematician and astronomer, also a famous poet
Al-Ghazali - Muslim philosopher, theologian and jurist
Ibn al-Jawzi- jurist and founder of an Islamic school of jurisprudence
Nizami Aruzi- Persian poet
Al-Isfizari- Persian mathematician
Ayn-al-Qużāt Hamadānī- Islamic jurisprudent and poet(Ayn-al-Qużāt is a title that translates roughly as pearl of the judges)
Alī ibn Aḥmad al-Nasawī- Persian mathematician
Nizam al-Mulk- Vizier of the seljuk empire after Alp Arslan's death wrote the Siyasatnama, a treatise on governing justly and within Islam
Aq Sunqur al-Hajib- Governor of Aleppo under Malik Shah I, reformed the laws to reduce crime and corruption.
Nur-al-din- ruler of Aleppo who fought the crusaders.

I had most of these in my 30+ list and have added the rest, thanks! I'm going to release my list soon, I just want to find a few more merchants and engineers first (and possibly some modern Central Asian people too).

 

[Leoreth]

Does this civ represent the khwarezmian empire too?

Your choice. Either you consider the Khwarezmians represented by the Turks or not represented in the game at all.

 

[cmakk1012]

I think it's sufficient to treat it more loosely. If some kind of Turkic conquest of the Middle East has taken place then that is sufficient background for an Ottoman spawn, even if they never conquered Anatolia directly.

I’d almost rather that the Ottomans spawned as Rûm then, since that would symbolize their invasion of Anatolia and establishment of a Turkish state at that time. Having a scenario where the Seljuk Turks conquer the Mideast except Anatolia, the Byzantines keep them out and are doing fine, and then suddenly two centuries later a Turkish state comes out of nowhere in Anatolia is kinda weird.

 

[Leoreth]

That's what happens with every spawn.

 

[cmakk1012]

I guess it’s only really relevant to the human player since AI will always fall to the Seljuk spawn troops.

If the Ottomans are going to be a spawned invasion in the future too I guess there’s not anything to complain about that much

 

[citis]

Your choice. Either you consider the Khwarezmians represented by the Turks or not represented in the game at all.

Maybe the civilization slot should represent Kwarezmian, Timurid empire and modern central asian states. It's the same as Indonesia that represents Srivijaya, Majapahit and Maratam or Maya that also represents Colombia.

So I propose this line:
Spawn as Shaka or Hephtalites, Turkic Khaganate, Seljuk Empire, Khwarazmian Empire, Timurid Empire, Khanate of Bukhara and then
Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Kazakhstan, Afghanistan depending on capital. Except if vassal to Russia in which case it should be known only as Kyrgyzstan.

This will also a historical communist brother to Russia (except China and Korea)

 

[Leoreth]

Sure, the problem is more that a civilization can only exist once, and their extent rarely matches one specific polity. All these empires existed partially contemporaneously. I can of course implement dynamic names in this vein but usually they would be superceded by large empire names.

 

[Lokki242]

Is there any chance for an earlier start date to sort of better represent the Kushans, or nah? I defer to your judgement as always I just wouldn't mind it haha

 

[Leoreth]

Were they Turkic? I think a Yuezhi/Kushan civ works better as a separate civ, I could think of an interesting UHV for them at least.

 

[DC123456789]

Were they Turkic? I think a Yuezhi/Kushan civ works better as a separate civ, I could think of an interesting UHV for them at least.

They definitely weren't Turkic; the Yuezhi/Kushan (and probably other related "invader" empires in the area like the Sakas, Hephthalites, etc.) should definitely be represented as a different civ.

 

[Lokki242]

Well that's fair enough. I didnt know any future possible Kushan/Yuezhi would be considered. I definitely prefer the separate civs! Just wanted Kushan representation.

 

[Leoreth]

Yeah, I think they're different enough from everything else to warrant being their own thing. In particular their whole migration to Pakistan/India itself could make for interesting gameplay, and they had a unique relationship to Buddhism and Greek culture that would be nice to represent in some way.

 

[BenZL43]

IF year > 1220 and ONLY IF Human = Byzantine AND Turk civilization is DEAD OR Turk never own any city in Anatolia* OR Mongol own at least one city in Turk core, THEN Ottoman should never spawn at all in the game.. I think.

PS: 1220 is the approximate year when Mongol conquering Khwarizmi empire, the successor to Seljuk.

*Anatolia: modern Turkey. Could include Levant, Antioch, Sham and Kurdistan as well.

While this is a very specific situation, I think it could give the Byzantine player that wish to pursue non-UHV gameplay a key/ to-do/way out, to play comfortably and keeping Anatolia Greek & Christian.

EDIT: More simplification