Feminism = Equality Between Sexes

Angst

Rambling and inconsistent
Joined
Mar 3, 2007
Messages
15,681
Location
A Silver Mt. Zion
I have experienced quite heated debates about the role of a woman in the short duration of my life; seen the facts on paper regarding the poor and surpressed woman that still didn't get the same fair salary as men, read about the apparent objectification of the said women. My education seemed to have a premade conclusion on a lot of things, and it was clear that the woman, let alone having rightful control of her individual, was now still a property of the man. The woman is relying on male actions, the decisions of the male, and is the one who follows the decisions of the man; therefore the man is still ruling the world, and the woman is a poor and surpressed entity, having to fight for her social level.

Then I closed the books after class, and woke up in the real world.

You got to love the education in your primary school. Having your teachers amateur poets or idealistic writers because not enough people are studying for that work isn't really that terrible; while they might lack the paedagogical skill, they have some general knowledge about their majors that allow them to teach their students the said premade conclusions. Since that's what primary school is all about, helping students to learn how to conclude. But they are always decided upon by the teacher.

Having a low-quality freetime writer as a teacher is ok. But when it is one of the stereotypical feminist female novelists with a cigarette that pop up everywhere and write "exciting thrillers and crime stories", teaching the kids in school that girls are being stampeded by the boys in the class, then I pass those classes mentally. Seeing the general tendency, at least during the teenage years, that the socially powerful women choose and decide what boy is popular and what is not, able to simply wink at a boy to let them have their ways just hasn't convinced me that women are that below the status of the general man.

A woman might say that it is unfair that it is only boys that really have the ability to score, but it is always the woman herself who decides whether to dance with the guy or not. The modern woman has the right to say anything in general about guys, because we're all just one big mob of horny social idiots, but boys can't talk down about women without being defined as surpressing (And as a sidenote, I have nothing against women, I'm merely tired of them who can't get over the fifties), since that's what feminism really defines. Feminism states that equality between sexes has to exist; and I'm okay with that. However, Feminism requires to have the woman as the surpressed entity; otherwise it can't raise the woman to the same level as the man. As Feminism still exists today, since women know they are standing worse on the paper, that is that they aren't as well-standing as men in the working sector, they are therefore able to horrendously promote themselves socially without being hindered by the guys, since their social attributes are simply better. That's biology. Same goes for the natural leadership instinct in the general male brain that lurks from the eras of stone age hunting.

And no, women won't take control of the world or anything. I don't believe in battle of the sexes. I'm just sick of girls griping over pornography when men are equally treated as sexual objects. Stop whining, you don't get drafted. We're equal now.

Man I'm gonna get a lot of hate now. :p
 
:clap:

You just discovered the education system is biased.

It is even more so when it talks about geography in my experience.
 
Lol. What an odd rant. So many conflicting, an forming opinion and emotions. Let it all out, this place is about as good as any to do so.
 
This thread is probably going to get a lot of heated debate, I will give you that.

I'm not really going to comment so much on teachers being "low quality freetime writers" (though that description is occasionally apt). If we want to talk about the education system in the US or some other country then I think that's a different thread as a whole - being a teenager socially and feminism are not really related, nor are feminism and the quality of teachers (uneven pay, schools with local rather than national supervision and standards, etc... are major issues imo).

As for feminism - I do tend to agree that there is nowadays a lot of mentality about being stuck in the 1950s/1960s. However, some things to consider:
-The whole country (US at least) is stuck in the 60s in regards to the abortion debate. Which is of course a centerpoint of modern feminism.
-Third world nations with major problems in how they treat women are likewise stuck in older mentalities - so while you may complain about feminists in first-world societies that doesn't change the fact that there ARE vast problems in equality elsewhere in the world.

But lastly I agree that feminists often promotes absolutely horrible arguments that embarass others who may share very similar ideologies. Kinda like PETA being way over-the-top and ridiculous, just alienates much of the public against other environmental movements. Feminists can tend to promote absolutely stupid ideas, stemming from zero understanding of things like math, statistics, or the legal system. I don't want to derail the thread so there's no particular need to comment on any of these if discussion isn't going that way - just some examples imo:

-fundamental perversion of statistics. The "wage gap" and need for "affirmative action" being two of my most hated arguments. I've yet to see any report that takes into account age and choice of career and still finds women to be discriminated against in wages - the simple fact is that it really isn't happening so much in the younger generations, the majority of the difference being among old people, and then the major difference is women just choosing to study/go into different careers. When women already comprise the majority of college students, for instance (not saying this is bad) there is no need for crazy schemes of preferential treatment.
-fundamental misunderstanding of capitalism. I cannot tell you how many feminists I've seen who are for "capitalism" but then want something like "all employees of each gender must be given exactly equal pay with no deviations due to merit/other circumstances." Or "even if a women gets pregnant and leaves the workforce for years she should be guaranteed a job with as much pay as anyone else whenever she chooses to return." Again, for those who know my views, I certainly am not much of a capitalist, but I still dislike logically inconsistent fools.
-fundamental disagreement with the justice system - those feminists who want to do away with "innocent until proven guilty" over some pet theory about rape or whatever.

So in my opinion feminists do much better when arguing for actual rights, whether it's something challenged in the first world or simply lacking in the third world, and targeting aspects of culture that may be biased - say encouraging young girls to pursue their dreams. Trying to legislate from faulty or fundamentally different concepts of law/justice/equality doesn't go very far.

Edit: Oh, I also HATE the word feminism itself. It should not be the word to mean "equality of the sexes." Especially because there are "Feminists" out there who say things like "Nobody else is allowed to call themselves a feminist." The word has been ruined over the past few decades.
 
Wow. I suddenly feel like ChocolateUSA!!! after reading a post on racial equality.

For starters, this is brrrroooaaadddd topic. What are we talking about? Gender equality in Russia where that one judge okay'd office rape? Are we talking gender equality in Europe? North American? Middle-Eastern? You can attack and defend a little too easily. And while I don't know enough about European and Russian... I can certainly say North American gender equality is pretty much at a low. Yeah, de jure equality definitely does exist. But obtain an average educated twenty-something girlfriend over here and watch how their behavior leans towards the "you're right, honey! I'm sorry!" and ":) giggle! :)" mentality. I predict that these ladies are going to snap and create a feminist fourth wave eventually.

The 1960s and 1970s feminist movements typically associated with aggressive stances definitely made a lot of mistakes. For starters, it created enough reasons to create the backlash known as the third wave. But the third wave has its fair share of mistakes as well. And to say women are now "free by choice" is unrealistic. Be an attractive woman and go to a club in any large city without muscle-bound supervision can who kick most peoples' butts. And then see where your perceived freedom will get you. I'm not going to be touching the rest. Even though there are others. To sum up everything though, reserve roles for two minutes and then re-evaluate your answer.
 
Like LucyDuke said, -isms have good ideas but there are some that take it too far.
 
The leading mistake is to confuse social equality with legal and economic equality. By no stretch are women equal to men biologically or socially. Women are far more subtle and more concerned with peer interaction than men. Men are more concerned with achieving goal-directed tasks and problem solving. However, women deserve the same legal rights and economic opportunities as men. For the most part, in the West, this has long since been achieved. Feminism has, therefore, largely achieved its goal, so that in order to survive, it has to fabricate female oppression that no longer exists. In this sense, it has largely betrayed its egalitarian purpose and now seems to strive more to make women's rights greater than those of men's.
 
I dunno, you can often make some girls, and I mean girls, shut up because whilst they want equality they also want to be treated like a "lady".

This is the most damning argument against vulgar street feminism. "Equality, you chauvinist swines! Hey, you're not treating me like a lady, you unchivalrous pig!" :lol:
 
Indeed. I'm very much in favour of equality in society, and dislike the women who want to be wined, dined and treated like a delicate vase that can't do anything for itself, but become upset when they're treated as an ornament or piece of property.
Everyone can see the appeal of never doing anything for oneself except what one wants: to have someone watch over one's welfare and control it all, with exceptions decided by oneself, but that's hardly an equal relationship.
 
I have found that many successful business women frequently develop two personas. One is the mother/wife/girlfriend who wants to be sexually controlled and dominated while at home, and the other is the worker/boss/slavemaster who absolutely doesn't while at work. Ironically, some of the most successful businessmen also exhibit these same tendencies...
 
The leading mistake is to confuse social equality with legal and economic equality. By no stretch are women equal to men biologically or socially.
I do believe you meant to say, "By no stretch are men and women equal biologically or socially." You betray some bias.

Women are far more subtle and more concerned with peer interaction than men. Men are more concerned with achieving goal-directed tasks and problem solving. However, women deserve the same legal rights and economic opportunities as men.
Yes. Oh, and it is, "However, Men and women deserve the same legal rights and economic opportunities as men." You betray your bias again.

For the most part, in the West, this has long since been achieved.
Yes, however oppression has a way of sticking around long after its abolition. Take African-Americans in the US as an example. Despite about the same amount of time "equality" they still are disadvantaged in an enormous number of ways. It is similar with women, the legal discrimination is abolished, but the societal problems still remain.

Feminism has, therefore, largely achieved its goal, so that in order to survive, it has to fabricate female oppression that no longer exists. In this sense, it has largely betrayed its egalitarian purpose and now seems to strive more to make women's rights greater than those of men's.
:confused: The "oppression" which now exists is social, not legal. It is still there to fight, just in a different form.

Women are better off than before, but men and women are not equal yet.
 
Human beings are sufficiently complex that we can assume multiple persona given different situation, sucessful business women not any different. Personally I do not care if a woman wants to be treated like a lady, its a game men and women play. I do care however that women and men should be paid equivalently for their work based on performance. Sometimes a business may pay a woman more because they need a certain image, I can understand that.
 
I am anti-feminism. Men are women clearly are not equal. Just look at the differences, physical, emotional, mental etc. We each have our strengths and weaknesses. We shouldn't lower the bar just to admit women, like we do with firefighters. If you have to be able to lift a certain amount, then that should be the amount, to save lives and we shouldn't lower the standard just because a person is female. If she can lift the same minimum amount as man, then she should be able to join, unless there is someone else better than her.

So what if less women are in the work force that men dominate. Women have skills that are far better than men. Women are superior communicators than men and they should be in positions where their strengths are used.

This idea that everyone is equal is bull.
 
There are different feminisms, not just one.
 
we shouldn't lower the standard just because a person is female
This.

Actually, I know next to nothing about requirements for females (aside from our semi-enforced mandatory civilian military training in high school, where girls are asked for less repetitions or or weaker versions of exercises). But, from what I gather in this forum, this is the case, which looks to me like some half-baked "solution" for increasing female representation in the workforce.
 
This link sums up feminism pretty well: http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=********
 
Back
Top Bottom