[RD] Feminism

[Lexicus]

I don't think this is a conclusion you can arrive at without a lot of dubious speculation. Same as most discourses on 'human nature'. It certainly smacks of social evolutionary thinking, which is controversial and tends to beg the question.

It's not a conclusion I believe is accurate, either, but the point is not the accuracy of the conclusion, the point is the consequences of different sets of circumstances for what must be done to get rid of the patriarchy.

The difference being capitalist society is a rather modern thing. We know a lot about the what happened back then, just a few hundred years ago at most. We don't know nearly as much about human societies thousands of years ago. Even if we do, the chain of causation we have to construct to modern times is so long that it becomes as uncertain as mere conjecture.

Capitalism has deeper roots than that. Indeed I think looking at ancient history is pretty useful for understanding capitalism too.

Not being interested in discussing whether patriarchy originated in hunter gatherer tribes does not mean assuming that it "has always existed, will always exist".

It's one thing to be uninterested in discussing it yourself. Instead you saw the need to tell other people not to discuss it.

Nietzsche was obsessed with delving into the 'genealogy' our moral systems at one point (i.e. he built an interesting but rather questionable narrative on how we came to believe what is right and wrong). It's a reference to that.

Yes, I am aware of the reference...my question is where I said anything about delving into the genealogy of patriarchy is required for anyone to dismantle it.

 

[aelf]

Capitalism has deeper roots than that. Indeed I think looking at ancient history is pretty useful for understanding capitalism too.

Yeah, it probably does. I mean, it makes sense that history matters, that where we are now is a product of what happened before, which was a product of what happened before. But if you're trying to come up with a narrative on how modern capitalism can be traced back to the Roman Empire (beyond the obvious and circumstantial like, "Hey, they had money and marketplaces"), you're pretty likely to stretch credulity beyond breaking point.

It's one thing to be uninterested in discussing it yourself. Instead you saw the need to tell other people not to discuss it.

Of course not. Feel free to discuss whatever. But if you quote me and critique what I said by arguing that I didn't pay attention to how patriarchy might have come to be from paleolithic days, I'm going to tell you that it's irrelevant to what I'm saying.

 

[Honor]

Of course not. Feel free to discuss whatever. But if you quote me and critique what I said by arguing that I didn't pay attention to how patriarchy might have come to be from paleolithic days, I'm going to tell you that it's irrelevant to what I'm saying.

It wasn't a critique, though - just a tangent.

PS: I am also not coming from a social/sociocultural evolution perspective as it is understood by the founders of the theory. My use of the word "evolution" only assumes adaptation to changing circumstances. No assumption of the trajectory being positive or negative. If a classification is required, I think I may be closer to a sociobiological perspective.

Of course, the central premise of my argument is indeed conjecture.

 

[Lexicus]

Yeah, it probably does. I mean, it makes sense that history matters, that where we are now is a product of what happened before, which was a product of what happened before. But if you're trying to come up with a narrative on how modern capitalism can be traced back to the Roman Empire (beyond the obvious and circumstantial like, "Hey, they had money and marketplaces"), you're pretty likely to stretch credulity beyond breaking point.

Actually I think it's more to do with slavery and property laws than money and marketplaces, but right.

Of course not. Feel free to discuss whatever. But if you quote me and critique what I said by arguing that I didn't pay attention to how patriarchy might have come to be from paleolithic days, I'm going to tell you that it's irrelevant to what I'm saying.

Well, we'll have to judge that on a case-by-case basis.

 

[warpus]

Historical gender roles don't come from nowhere?

Look at the way our ancestors lived and where they came from and look at all the other related species on the planet and their gender roles. That's where they came from. Isn't it obvious? It's not like men and women were equals 500,000 years ago and then some guys sat down and decided to start up the patriarchy and that from then on only men would get to make decisions.

 

[Senethro]

Again with the extremely vague references to ancestors and nearest extant relatives. What characteristics or archaeological evidence are you referring to?

 

[warpus]

Again with the extremely vague references to ancestors and nearest extant relatives. What characteristics or archaeological evidence are you referring to?

Do I need to? Look at almost any species on this planet. They all have gender roles. Why wouldn't our ancestors? Why would our gender roles suddenly vanish when civilization got started up?

And what's up with the "again" ?

 

[Akka]

We only need to stop being PC-dumb and look at gender dimorphism and guess about the consequences.
The first part being obviously much much much much harder than all the others put together.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Look at almost any species on this planet. They all have gender roles.

I can't help but think about penguins. They have a marvelously cooperative system, in which the females lay the eggs, and then go back to the sea to replenish their energy. In the meantime, the males incubate the eggs, throughout the incredibly harsh Antarctic winter (I expect the more northerly penguins have an easier time of this). When the females return, both parents care for the chick.

Some penguins are gay; this is fact. And when a same-sex pair of penguins at a zoo wanted to raise a chick, I could not believe all the ignorant, moronic protests from the "moral majority" humans, screeching about how "immoral" that was!

It's moral as far as the penguins are concerned, and that should be the end of the matter.

 

[Lexicus]

It's moral as far as the penguins are concerned, and that should be the end of the matter.

It's funny because all these species have homosexuality, but only humans are dumb enough to be homophobes.

 

[Traitorfish]

Look at the way our ancestors lived and where they came from and look at all the other related species on the planet and their gender roles.

Bonobos, our closest relatives, live in matriarchal societies in which bisexuality and polyamory are universally practiced. So, there's that.

 

[warpus]

March of the Penguins was an amazing documentary. It made me really feel for those penguins and what they go through.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

Some penguins are gay; this is fact. And when a same-sex pair of penguins at a zoo wanted to raise a chick, I could not believe all the ignorant, moronic protests from the "moral majority" humans, screeching about how "immoral" that was!

It's moral as far as the penguins are concerned, and that should be the end of the matter.

More like bisexual, really. If I recall correctly, one of the most famous gay penguin pair left his male "mate" once me met a receptive female.

Animals frequently tend to prefer mates of the opposite sex, but not so strongly that they would pass on the opportunity for either sex or pair bonding with members of the same sex when an opposite sex partner is not easily available.

Bonobos, our closest relatives, live in matriarchal societies in which bisexuality and polyamory are universally practiced. So, there's that.

That social structure depends on bonobo children being raised and socialized by bonobo adults who start having sex with them as infants. The big differences between bonobos and chimps are cultural, not genetic. If a bonobo baby is raised in captivity by humans that don't rape him, he grows up to act as aggressive and domineering as a chimp.

 

[EgonSpengler]

If we're going to start basing our gender roles on the natural world, I vote we try the praying mantis model last. I'm not sure that one would go over very well.

 

[MagisterCultuum]

The normal Praying Mantis model is for the male to bring the female extravagant gifts of food before beginning a long and surprisingly tender courtship dance. He'll often keep dancing for more than 12 hours before she give the signal that he can first touch her. After sex, a well fed female lets the male mantis leave unharmed and probably never sees him again.

It is only the most desperate males who try to rape mantis women without feeding them first who loose their heads before copulation is done and then are devoured to provide sustenance for her offspring. The stereotypical mating behavior is witnessed in captivity where humans place hungry male and female mantises together in a closed container, without giving him the option to hunt for prey to gift to her first. In the wild, sexual cannibalism only occurs during the most severe famines.

 

[Lexicus]

The normal Praying Mantis model is for the male to bring the female extravagant gifts of food before beginning a long and surprisingly tender courtship dance. He'll often keep dancing for more than 12 hours before she give the signal that he can first touch her. After sex, a well fed female lets the male mantis leave unharmed and probably never sees him again.

It is only the most desperate males who try to rape mantis women without feeding them first who loose their heads before copulation is done and then are devoured to provide sustenance for her offspring. The stereotypical mating behavior is witnessed in captivity where humans place hungry male and female mantises together in a closed container, without giving him the option to hunt for prey to gift to her first. In the wild, sexual cannibalism only occurs during the most severe famines.

That's fascinating, I didn't know it.

 

[EgonSpengler]

The normal Praying Mantis model is for the male to bring the female extravagant gifts of food before beginning a long and surprisingly tender courtship dance. He'll often keep dancing for more than 12 hours before she give the signal that he can first touch her. After sex, a well fed female lets the male mantis leave unharmed and probably never sees him again.

Yeah, that about sums up my sex-life.

And when a same-sex pair of penguins at a zoo wanted to raise a chick, I could not believe all the ignorant, moronic protests from the "moral majority" humans, screeching about how "immoral" that was!

Sorry, I only just read this. Is that true? that's anthropomorphism taken to a whole new level.

 

[Senethro]

Lots of ignorance on display about what people imagine the gender roles and degrees of gender dimorphism in primates/mammals are.

A hint: They aren't perfect replicas of 1950s human american gender roles.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Yeah, that about sums up my sex-life.

Do you often treat your dates to elaborate meals that take 12 hours for them to eat, while you dance for them?

Sorry, I only just read this. Is that true? that's anthropomorphism taken to a whole new level.

What can I say? Some regions of Canada are bible-belt, with the silly attitudes that go with it. Gay marriage has been legal in Canada for over a decade, yet there are still people who act like it's destroying the country and wrecking heterosexual marriage.

 

[Traitorfish]

That social structure depends on bonobo children being raised and socialized by bonobo adults who start having sex with them as infants. The big differences between bonobos and chimps are cultural, not genetic. If a bonobo baby is raised in captivity by humans that don't rape him, he grows up to act as aggressive and domineering as a chimp.

An argument for the plasticity of behaviour in higher apes, surely, and thus of gender roles themselves?