FfH2 Game Balance Thread

[Lone Wolf]

What I'm saying is that I'm not seeing any analysis as to why 1 per pop is unbalanced nor am I seeing any analysis as to why 1/2 per pop is any more or less unbalanced.

I'm not saying that it is unbalanced - just suggesting a nerf in case of the powers that be deciding that it is.

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

the way I see it, the Calabim are just fine. it's many of the other civs that need a boost. Doviello, who said doviello? that's just an example

 

[CurseUppl]

What makes Ffh great is that the game doesn't strive to be balanced (an impossible feat anyway).

Leave the Calabim be or before we know it there'll be nerfs left and right and we end up with Beyond the Sword with fantasy models (boring).

If anything, boost some of the other civs.

 

[Senethro]

Senethro, you underestimate me. Firebows NEVER deal in direct combat. The only battle is using fireballs.

If you use that logic, you don't REALLY need ironworking, and you dont REALLY need govannon. Iron working would certainly help, Govannon on the other hand, I don't think is worth the investment (for firebow buffs).

The firebow's strength is possible because of its ability to cast fireballs with 2 free xp. I don't think there is any argument that firebows are better than mages in almost every way.

The only minor discrepency is that you do not believe that Firebows are worth the effort to beeline Bowyers, and instead you wait till you already have a decent "normal" army with Iron and Mages (for the buffs you think are needed)

its certainly possible to defeat the firebows, but to delve into their power is not as hard as you would make it sound.

While thats fine for beating up CPUs, hasted melee units on roads have a longer range than fireballs. You have no way of preventing Hasted Axemen from smashing your Firebows. Isn't the defensive strength of bronze firebows 5?

 

[Senethro]

What I'm saying is that I'm not seeing any analysis as to why 1 per pop is unbalanced nor am I seeing any analysis as to why 1/2 per pop is any more or less unbalanced. In Industry this is called tampering, where you just fidgit with a bunch of stuff hoping that it makes stuff better without really knowing if its better at all.

Its not tampering if you're making Gov Manors more like the baseline Courthouse!

Its unbalanced because its obvious its unbalanced. Does anyone else have a building that generates a free axeman every 5 turns when the city is size 10? (In fact, the answer is yes. But they pay 180 hammers to build it, not 60 and it only works when building military. The leaders of this civ also don't have Financial, have a research penalty, and worse unique units than the Vampire Melee line.)

 

[MagisterCultuum]

We should really be able to build Paramanders with any metal, not just Copper. They should not make Soldiers of Kilmorph go obsolete, as the earlier unit has a very different use. Paramaders also seem somewhat weak/bland. Based on the pedia entry, I really think that they should be made to specialize against arcane units. I'd personally prefer to give them a bonus vs unitcombat_adept units and the ability to target them in stacks of stronger units, but simply giving them the Magic Resistant promotion may be enough.

sh>A holy warrior following the teachings of Kilmorph, the Paramander is a strong unit against demons and adepts. They require Copper and a Temple of Kilmorph to be trained, and can be upgraded to Paladins.

The Mithril Golem is way too weak for its cost/AC requirement. It should be much stronger than Meshabber, as its lack of a unitcombat means it cannot level up and get promotions. If I recall, it used to have 40 strength, which was only reduced when it was given the Earth affinity that it lost not long after that. I think it needs that affinity back. Also, I really think that the material from which is it made should dictate that the Mithril Golem have the Magic Immune promotion. (I'd personally also like there to be a pieces of the mithril golem equipment that lets you recreate it if it is destroyed, but that may be asking too much.)

Mithril is prized in part for its ability to resist spells of all kinds, leading to highly sought after armor for any warrior. However, even the Luchuirp Arch-Enchanters found themselves unable to bind any enchantments, no matter what form it was given. For a long time the idea was thought to be impossible. Then one day a dwarven city was overrun by a legion of drowned. The stone warden who found the ruins cried out to Kilmorph, rending his robes as he fell to his knees in horror. Every dwarven woman and child had been beheaded, the men dragged towards the waters, presumably to rise again and spread the misery further through the land. Kilmorph's heart broke, and she spoke to Stonewarden, instructing him to build the largest golem ever seen, shaped like a dwarf but cast of pure Mithril. When the time golem was finished, he was told, Kilmorph would give it life as their spells could not. What they would do with it was up to them; the goddess knew she was intervening too much already. The Stonewarden nodded, and gathered his hammer and set off for the Holy city. It would take a long time to forge the parts, and much blood would be shed as he toiled stoically day after day. But the evil would be pushed from the land--forever.

That would also seem justify making the Mithril Weapons promotion grant at least a little magic resistance, and/or block the Enchanted Blade promotion. I personally think it should at least be immune to Rust.

 

[civ_king]

and preventing gaining enchanted weapons

 

[MagisterCultuum]

That would matter in FF, but we aren't in that subforum so this is FfH we're talking about.

 

[Lone Wolf]

Ljosalfar Fyrdwells require Deer to be built, but the grand majority of the mapscripts places Deer only in tundra regions. It doesn't feel right that the Ljosalfar should be settling in tundra to get the Fyrdwells, esp. since Svartalfars don't have a resource requirement for their Nyxkins.

 

[Borya]

Is it a good idea to allow weapons to be upgraded in forts/castles/citadels?

 

[Bill Bisco]

Its not tampering if you're making Gov Manors more like the baseline Courthouse!

Its unbalanced because its obvious its unbalanced. Does anyone else have a building that generates a free axeman every 5 turns when the city is size 10? (In fact, the answer is yes. But they pay 180 hammers to build it, not 60 and it only works when building military. The leaders of this civ also don't have Financial, have a research penalty, and worse unique units than the Vampire Melee line.)

And maybe the Calabim need that huge production bonus because the Kuriorates or the Amurites are very powerful. Unbalanced is unbalanced in comparison to the best competition.

 

[Senethro]

And maybe the Calabim need that huge production bonus because the Kuriorates or the Amurites are very powerful. Unbalanced is unbalanced in comparison to the best competition.

Why would you pick two of the weakest civs to illustrate this point?

 

[Grey Fox]

Yeah, sure the Kuriotates and Amurites can be pretty decent against the AI (at least on your comfortable difficulty level), but they are both pretty crappy in the hands of the AI, and they are both sorta weak in MP. (I should know, I almost always played with Amurites )

 

[phizuol]

What's wrong with Amurites? I wanted to try them tonight. =(

 

[[to_xp]Gekko]

there's nothing wrong with Amurites, build tons of Firebows and have fun

 

[Grey Fox]

There isn't much wrong with them, but their goodies come late.

 

[phizuol]

Yeah, I've been playing Amurites lately and now realize that to be true. The "civ flavor" is Gov who comes late and is a unit (a living one at that) which can be eliminated. It would be nice to have something earlier and not tied down to a hero even if it was a little less powerful than having Gov's power (though I'm not sure that's necessary.)

 

[WCH]

And maybe the Calabim need that huge production bonus because the Kuriorates or the Amurites are very powerful. Unbalanced is unbalanced in comparison to the best competition.

What?

Calabim are separately already very powerful, thanks to their Vampires. Copious XP and access to some spell casting promotions? That's really strong... overlaps with the Grigori's gig, except that Calabim don't stop at 100 XP, and can keep building new ones rather than waiting for them to pop. That's their distinctiveness and their power. Having a normal building which is basically the same as one of the most powerful wonders in the game is just insanity, and completely unnecessary.

You're right that a clear argument can't be made why 1/2 is ideal, but what form would such an argument take anyway? Do you want a spreadsheet and a thorough statistical analysis backed up by simulations and computations? The point is that 1 production per 1 unhappiness is way too much... in my opinion, it should probably be a lot lower than even 1/2, but 1/2 at least is a lot better than 1/1. Taking "way too much" and then making it some other arbitrary lower number is perfectly straightforward.

If you don't understand why the building is unbalanced, compare it to other buildings that give + something. Elder Council, for instance, gives +2 research; Market gives +3 Gold/-1 research for a net of +2. Some things give copious cultural boost, but excluding culture, giving a net of +2 to one or various things is fairly standard. Some of the buildings are unusually strong: gambling house, for instance, gives +3 gold and usually several happiness as well, and so I'd describe the gambling house as probably the single strongest normal building. As Governor's Manor is a UB, and I'm all about civs having powerfully distinct things, buildings and otherwise, I think we could use this as a reasonable standard, that the benefit of the Governor's Manor should be approximately in line with the Gambling House, rather than with the Elder Council.

What does it currently give? Often upwards of 20 production per city in larger cities, +10 in mid size. +20, in addition to its other effects. Compared to the Gambling House's +6, which I've suggested is at least among the strongest, +20 is insane... even though I believe it's okay for a UB to be unusually powerful, having it more than three times as powerful as the best normal building, in addition to also having other benefits, is just simply too much. Dividing it by half would still make it exceptionally strong; +10 production in the largest cities, making it still the single best normal building in the game (but no longer by a factor of three), and +5 in medium size cities, making it still damn good but not the absolute best (some would argue of course that production is worth more than gold, and so that it's still the best).

Does that make any kind of sense to you? I really have no idea why you need this spelled out, it seems perfectly obvious to everyone else.

 

[loocas]

Here's is Sephi's solution to the manors:

UnhappyProduction (used by manors and pillar of chains). Bonus to from happy population reduced by 50-66%, bonus from unhappy population increased by 50%

I like it. It doesn't go as far as I would like--I'd prefer that manors gave no hammers for happy and Pillar gave for both--but this solution works without splitting the mechanic. That means the Pillar receives any nerfs to the Manors, which I'd prefer didn't happen. The Calabim still have no incentive to build the Pillar*, and they should for flavor and because it would make a really powerful city under the right conditions. I have no idea how splitting them would be implemented, but short of that I am happy with this solution.

*Unless they stack. Do they stack?

 

[Sephi]

IIRC they do not stack