Finding my Religion

[KrikkitTwo]

Well based on the cumulative pressure hypothesis. (ie like civ5)

Pressure required for 1 convert= Total pressure/population
Pressure for 1 convert = (atheist pressure+religion pressure)/population
Pressure for 1=(X*population+pressure for 1)/pop
Pressure for 1=50+(Pressure for 1)/population
Pressure for 1 *(1-1/pop)=50
Pressure for 1=50*(pop)/(pop-1)... the problem becomes rounding... it might only need 0.6 "followers" to register as 1
so if 32-36 "city-turns" of pressure was enough for 1 balanced, then


Another possibility is Atheism pressure is "converted" to religious pressure..... so that it the divisor is

(pressure of all religions OR Population*50 whichever is more).... That would give consistent amounts for every pop with no rounding

Followers=Pop*Pressure/(Total pressure OR Population*50 whichever is more)
for atheist cities
Followers=Pressure/50
...but that wouldn't fit with next growth being more complex (except for pop 2, and pop 3 going from 1->2 followers)

What range of city sizes did you test?


[also, at some point we will have to test if a holy city provides more pressure for a religion it has been converted to as opposed to the religion that was founded there...which seems like it shouldn't]

 

[Victoria]

Fantastic, will work with that in mind as the initial seems to follow civ5 in spirit.
A lot of things in civ VI seem to round down based on cumulative target

The largest city I tested was 9 pop, most tests were about 6v2 both ways to see if they differed. This is why the words seemed and appear to are used a lot. I like lots of test data but its mind numbingly zzzz

The main problem is for each test you have to churn through the turns in 2 player hotseat to get the right mix ensuring no other cities are bleeding into the results

 

[Victoria]

One problem with spread is that on even pop cities 50% is not enough to convert them. This is one of the issues that makes pressure not so useful by the looks of things.
The

A few turns later Birmingham converts while still showing 3 pop. Note the arrow disappears from that circle possibly indicating it will no longer recieve pressure from that religion. Its how I see it currently
The arrows in Bostons have become spikey probably indicating more pressure based on a lot of observations.
Newcastle gets a new population, it gains an athiest pop I imagine because my religion was not the majority and/or the pressure was not strong enough. I see the opposite in a centre of many religious cities. In those situations new pop is always of the religion but the atheist population never seems to decrease through pressure.

 

[DiffSarit]

I just got back to see the last save of my Religious game (the only save I still keep from that game) and observe something weird.

I have convert almost every city in my continent to my religion (only one left, and it is not convert to any religion yet), though there are still some followers of other religions left in many cities. The weird part is that the arrow of all those religions still showing it up. Not the big spiky double arrows, but a small lean one. Though they appear to be up nevertheless, which should make you think that they got some pressures in these cities. But there is NO CITY that convert to those religions left in this continent!!! One of those religions even has no city that convert to it left in the world!!!

So I think that the small lean arrow might now be shown correctly (bug???) or it might have other meanings that we don't know yet, but definitely not mean that it show the religion is growing in that city. For example, I have a small city with 4 pops that already convert to my religion, but the pop is still split in half (2 for my religion and 2 for another religion) and the small arrow indicate that another religion is up. It will grow in 3 turns, so I observe what will happen and the new pop is belong to my religion as expect (the city are surrounded by my converted cities). If the small arrow show that a religion is growing, then you should expect that the new pop will belong to another religion.

The spiky double arrow indicate correctly that the religion is growing as Victoria point out. That only city that still not convert show double arrow for my religion (it has 11 pops with 3 religion splitting as 5/4/1 and 1 atheist) and in a few turns it convert to my religion. It convert a follower of the religion that has 4 followers, so the split is now 6/3/1 and atheist still remain atheist. And now the arrow disappears from my religion as Victoria's example above while the other 2 religions still have small arrow show for them.

For the Holy City of other religions (Delhi and Rio de Janeiro), converting them have no other benefit than that another religion lost its extra powerful source of pressure (assume that the graphic show correctly because it did NOT show the double wave as normally show in your Holy City).

I also have 2 cities that every pop follows my religions. They are not my Holy City, but the 4th (Shenyang) and 6th (Chengdu) city that I found. The 6th city is on the border, so it is possible that I might used Apostle/Inquisitor to convert them back from the early religious fight and convert all other followers in the process. But the 4th city is quite deep into my empire and I'm quite sure that I never used any Apostle/Inquisitor on it. It is also one of the slowest growing city of my empire (due no water and lots of hills, so low food and low housing), so it might be possible that due to slow pop growth and high pressure from Holy City and other cities around it (and from Scripture belief), its atheist are slowly converted to my religion. Though it also possible that because it grow quite slow, it was converted since it has only 1 pop and thus keep all of its pop to my religion since then.

 

[Victoria]

But there is NO CITY that convert to those religions left in this continent!!!

Good info...
Relaaax, it is not a biggy. I suspect the arrows may indicate how close to the next convert they are. Your screenshots I have also seen which makes me theorize this. It is not clear and it is horrible to test. I just wish Firaxis could come clean because its taking up my time at Christmas.

Rio is showing a wave indicating it is producing pressure. How much needs testing. Each of these tests takes a jolly long time because all the data seems to be saving to the .sav file so we have 0 visibility. A lot less than civ 5 so its going to take time.
BTW, when printing is invented you get triple waves instead of double and holy sites produce double so it all gets a bit more messy. the wave seems to be just an indicator of the amount of pressure and may not be exact.

My testing shows that oif you create a 1 pop city that converts fast it will never have atheists. So outlying cities can be all your religion while central ones will always have doubters. Its a bit weird but it does not really matter unless someone comes along with an apostle. If they do I believe they will convert some of yours and some of the atheists depending on weights. You can then pop in with an inquistor and change them all to your religion.

All I have said above is a sort of guesswork with some proving in. I suspect my formulas should be in the hundreds rather than the units but I am unsure. The length of time to convert is roughly right and that's what we really need to play.. and understanding those stupid arrows. It may be the spikey arrow is high pressure and the single arrow is how close to a new convert they are. Regardless, once you have a majority, your arrow disappears and it seems your religion mostly grows in there with new population not pressure. Still testing and will be for weeks

 

[KrikkitTwo]

The "Arrows=partial followers" theory makes a Lot of sense

A lot of the weirdness may have to do with how pressure ratios are rounded off to produce followers

 

[Victoria]

As people seem to be getting value out of this thread, I have my first spreadsheet of tests to hand. I have done others since but they just pretty much make the same values. I am currently looking at multi city pressure which seems to be roughly the full pressure of the highest pressure city then half of the next highest then half of the next highest etc... Note the word seems.

 

[Nigel_Tufnel2]

I appreciate the time put into this thread. I haven't been playing with religion much lately, but I wonder if any of the religious info displayed lags a turn like so much other information in the game? Just a thought.

 

[Victoria]

Yes it does definitely. But I do not think it is accidental.
If I found a religion I will not see the pressure mark for another turn because there has not been pressure yet. A pressure mark is when it shows the religious symbol and 0 population. There are definately bugs with the wheel displaying short quick increases or occasionally just getting it wrong like a 2 city showing 6 converts

 

[KrikkitTwo]

What might be best is to ignore pressure and try a mod to figure out the pressure:follower relationship

Say set the "RELIGION_SPREAD_STRENGTH_MULTIPLIER=200" to something like 5-10... hopefully that means missionaries will give a +5-10 for your religion instead of 200.

Then either set the # spreads for missionaries to something like 100 OR make them cost 5 faith.

This way you could have a single isolated city... and test missionaries on it at different populations (get a lot of missionary spreads sitting in reserve, then found the target city and save at each new pop it gets)..use each of the saves to see how many low level 'missionary spreads' gives a certain number of followers.

That way the test wouldn't take 30+ turns for a city, and you wouldn't have to worry about the Holy site seeming to be different with different numbers of pop

 

[Victoria]

The mod idea is great, is it eady just to mod the global params? I have never looked into it.

The low level missionary seems to be pretty much 200 strength = 2 pop for first go.

I just wanted to sort pressure first rather than jumping around

 

[KrikkitTwo]

The mod idea is great, is it eady just to mod the global params? I have never looked into it.

The low level missionary seems to be pretty much 200 strength = 2 pop for first go.

I just wanted to sort pressure first rather than jumping around

I only did it once with 5... for very minor things, I imagine its not too hard with 6 (although this is early)

Its just frustrating that
normal city =34 turns pressure for any city pop 2 to 8
Holy site.....16 turns at pop 2-14 turns at pop 8

which means there's some complex feature with the holy site multiplier.
(or something is just bugged..always a fun possibility)

but in any case the idea is
Population:City turns-> followers
and
Population:Missionary/Apostle/Combat->followers

City turns takes time to test, (ie it takes turns)..and also takes a specific amount of terrain

Missionary/Apostles can be tested instantly (just takes time to set up)

once some
Population:missionary numbers->followers can be worked out then it Might be simpler to see what the weirdness with holy sites and population is.

 

[Victoria]

Ahh as long as its a new game you can just change globalparameters in place.. that and reveal all will help nicely to speed things up.
Its just a shame I have to create a new game each time I want to frig a param but hey, anything helps!

 

[PendragonWRB]

But there is NO CITY that convert to those religions left in this continent!!! One of those religions even has no city that convert to it left in the world!!!

I have never looked at the code but I have always felt in V and VI that religious pressure comes from the citizens, NOT the overall religion of a city. Your screenshot shows a citizen here and there from 'minority' religions and those 'minority' citizens are causing some pressure on citizens in neighboring cities. I have no idea however what the arrows mean. Brasilia is surrounded by cities with some Christian citizens and yet there is no arrow. All of the other cities have at least one Christian citizen and an arrow.

 

[Victoria]

I think there is too much worry about these arrows.
The only time they disappear is when you have a majority religion.
I have never seen a flat line for a lesser religion.

I tested with Atheist pressure 25 today (instead of 50) and larger target and source with surprising results

A city with 12 converts out of 13 but no holy site was pressurizing a 2 atheist pop city and converted in 9 turns instead of the 34 I was getting.

A city with 2 converts out of 2 but no holy site pressurizing a city of 10 atheists and converted the first in 7 turns!.,, the second in another 16 turns and the third in 20 turns.

This indicates atheist pressure modifier is v important and source size is not but target size seems to have some importance. I was stupid though and accidentally left the speed on the online setting so bar some idea of what is important, accuracy is gone.

 

[myclan]

I have never looked at the code but I have always felt in V and VI that religious pressure comes from the citizens, NOT the overall religion of a city. Your screenshot shows a citizen here and there from 'minority' religions and those 'minority' citizens are causing some pressure on citizens in neighboring cities. I have no idea however what the arrows mean. Brasilia is surrounded by cities with some Christian citizens and yet there is no arrow. All of the other cities have at least one Christian citizen and an arrow.

At least in Civ5 that's not right. Pressure only come from city that had benn converted. While in Civ5 a holy city can still has a pressure over itself even if it had been converted to another religion

 

[Victoria]

I am pretty sure these parameters are about resisting conversion so your holy city gets more than a normal city which I guess is 100 and an unconverted city is 50. There was a change in this area in the patch. Maybe they added the holy city param.
The weird thing was that a larger target city had conversions easier than a smaller one like some inverse population thing going on.

RELIGION_SPREAD_ATHEISM_PRESSURE_PER_POP=50
RELIGION_SPREAD_HOLY_CITY_PRESSURE_PER_POP=200

 

[KrikkitTwo]

I am pretty sure these parameters are about resisting conversion so your holy city gets more than a normal city which I guess is 100 and an unconverted city is 50. There was a change in this area in the patch. Maybe they added the holy city param.
The weird thing was that a larger target city had conversions easier than a smaller one like some inverse population thing going on.

That makes perfect sense.... to get one more follower should be easier if there are a lot of population around.

Do you have data for the 4th and 5th conversion on the 10 pop... I think whatever "rounding mechanism" is used may work differently for just one follower.

 

[Victoria]

No data for 4th 5th but I think getting the trend is the right idea. For getting a formula. Stomach bug gah

 

[KrikkitTwo]

For the 2nd and 3rd follower in the 10 pop city, the relationship fits

Followers=Turns*(10 to 13) / (100 to 150 +Turns)
[round down]

I have a feeling the first follower follows slightly different rules (rounding up when it would otherwise round down... or getting some bonus)