True and good that he clarified it.
Foreign Policy: Apolyton
- Thread starter talonschild
- Start date
2metraninja
Defender of Nabaxica
From today:
MZprox: I did make promises, but the kind of commitment you'd expect from us is not in our civ interest. We want to keep our options open, even if it's just a few percent chance that we will not join a war against egypt on your side
2metraninja: now, normally we would like to have written down the specifics of our relations and obligations to each other. since obviously it is not the way we see them, we would like you to write them and give us to see if it is what we think, so we know where we both stand
2metraninja: also, there were no words strong enough from me telling my teammates how noble you are and how you will never betray us, to calm my teams suspicions that you already sold us to RB, giving them somehow hint you will not attack them if they attach us, so I will want your clear statement if you have any semi-agreements, half-words or something like this with RB
2metraninja: to my teammates this sudden (as we see it) change in your attitude makes them start wondering what is the reason for it
MZprox: i tried my best to explain it to you.. and I was honest in that
2metraninja: I understand you do whatever you think is best for your team. this is totally OK
MZprox: I will do what I think is best for my civ, even because it's not just me, but a team
2metraninja: but we would like to know if something in your thinking what is best for your team changed lately. because in the last 2 months we were speaking how we 3 will secure each-other and even plan to attack and destroy RB and now you push forward variant where you dont act in this direction
2metraninja: if you say it direct, maybe we can throw a bit more light on this which can make you see better the things
2metraninja: also, can you tell me that you dont have any agreements with RB currently or for the foreseable future?
I want this settled first and then we continue discuss the situation
I was called a fool that I refuse to believe that you somehow made agreement with RB
2metraninja: and I can say the arguments that were said are quite compelling - why otherwise you will leave yourself possibility where you dont attack RB if they attack us
MZprox: here is one thing: basically the same with different words: It wouldn't feel right to me if the 3 of us would bang on RB if one of the 3 is just as strong as them.. and as I told you we think you have this potential. Things like maya getting to RB's side greatly ease this worry of mine. So how i see things i'm about 98% convinced now that we will fight Egypt. And no we have no agreements. That would go against my promises.. what would be the point of no-naps if we still agree not to attack them.
2metraninja: that about you having no any agreement with RB is good enough for me. thanks for setting this straight
2metraninja:I was told in RB it is something like normal practice to say to someone: "Lets not militarize our borders" meaning you still not have NAP and word given not to attack, but you prefer not to if the other keeps his own armies away and it works most of the time
MZprox: hmm good to know they are trying these tricks
it's like no nap, but we agree not to move military units close to ur own border
then try to attack
2metraninja: yes, quite tricky
leaves options
just kidding, as I am nervous
2metraninja: I kept asked in the team: How we will fight civ number 1 and number 2 in less than 20 turns on 2 fronts if we have no dedicated allies.
MZprox: i need to go afk for an hour, just question: will you end your tun before this night?
2metraninja: if it suits you, I can leave things to end turn tomorrow morning
see how good is to have dedicated ally
MZprox: i expect rb will take acity.. seeing whether they destroy it or no can have effect on my moves.. but not much otherwise
it is appreciated
i also provide you with information about maya research, trrops pictures
i'm leaving now, ttyl
2metraninja: when mentioning screenshots and info from French, can I have some info and even better screenshots on the part where you see them?
MZprox: they moved every troop out of the area which i can see
2metraninja: we guessed so, as we see them amassing troops at our border
what are they researching?
MZprox: I can't remember now, I will check
ah, I believe it's education
which is quite strange
2metraninja: hmm
vranasm
Deity
I think there is difference in thinking of our 2 "maybe allies".
Apolyton still thinks that they can win on their own and will try to manipulate higher standing civs to duke it out, while staying out of the fight as much as possible
CP probably realized that they can't win themself the game and it will suffice for them to stand in the right alliance at the end of the game.
That's the difference I feel is there and why I think we really should treat both "maybe allies" different way.
I don't think that Poly would willingly broke any contract we make, but I think they will try to do their best to avoid making any strong contracts on the way.
Apolyton still thinks that they can win on their own and will try to manipulate higher standing civs to duke it out, while staying out of the fight as much as possible
CP probably realized that they can't win themself the game and it will suffice for them to stand in the right alliance at the end of the game.
That's the difference I feel is there and why I think we really should treat both "maybe allies" different way.
I don't think that Poly would willingly broke any contract we make, but I think they will try to do their best to avoid making any strong contracts on the way.
YossarianLives
Deity
We can treat CP as a true ally. Poly is a team that we can use to our benefit, but we have to understand that they will always be looking for a way to come out on top over us.
2metraninja
Defender of Nabaxica
Some more chat with MZ from yesterday:
2metraninja: hi
MZprox: hi
2metraninja: how do you do?
MZprox: fine thx, a bit sleepy though..
2metraninja: how are your stealing plans working?
yeah, I dont get enough sleep either
MZprox: The stealingi don't know.. even if I do it won't be as cheap as i wanted, but the most important to get rifling asap
2metraninja: lucky you, your economics is thriving
we are so far from rifles, that we dont even want to think about it
MZprox: we wil lnever be able to raise a huge army so at elast we try to make it advanced
2metraninja: last night looking at RB army I got goosebumps. those guys have near a million in power, where we as military power 2 are at about 600 000
those RB are no joking
we see their army AFTER they killed the main German army and it is scary
MZprox: I guess they are doing some kind of gamble
they want to win at this level or at least break their enemies, because their ecomony is suffering
2metraninja: you think so? hmm, will be interesting after t170
MZprox: yes, they will have the advantage in numbers and the ability to strike first with catapults. even if we attack from 3 sides they can surely destroy one on us's army
2metraninja: oh, do we plan to strike?
MZprox: at this moment it looks the only logical action
we surely prepare for war
2metraninja: hmm, you never cease to surprise me
MZprox: just because i don't want to make promises it doesn'tmean that I wil lnot do what seems to be logical
2metraninja: what about CivFR? do I have your word you wont extend NAP with them if we cant get NAP with them?
MZprox: you have it
I will prepare for war against civfr too.. just for fun.. but I wil lnot start a two front war, only defend if i have to
2metraninja: thanks. this means a lot for us, as we suspected we will get to this even way before we attacked Spaniards
we were afraid of 2-front war even since, especially knowing how French do diplomacy
MZprox: in t161 i will know exactly when can i get rifling, I may need some money loan to get rifling a turn earlier so i don't have to draft too many janissaries.
2metraninja: I think this can be arranged
MZprox: that will be the point when i can predict the strenght of my forces.
So now MZ wants to dump the "Border garrison" plan and go with Full scale dogpile with banners flying and everything?
I think he sees RB's huge powergraph and is afraid that they will attack Poly next since Poly has the weakest military... So he is worried that all his wishy washy talk until now will leave him with two allies saying "Well if I am attacked I can raise a quick defense, but other than that I can't make promises"
I think he is talking tough now so that he does not get left in the cold if/when RB attacks Poly.
2metra, I suggest that you get him to make as many concrete promises and commitments now while he is feeling scared
I think he sees RB's huge powergraph and is afraid that they will attack Poly next since Poly has the weakest military... So he is worried that all his wishy washy talk until now will leave him with two allies saying "Well if I am attacked I can raise a quick defense, but other than that I can't make promises"
I think he is talking tough now so that he does not get left in the cold if/when RB attacks Poly.
2metra, I suggest that you get him to make as many concrete promises and commitments now while he is feeling scared
That is very interesting development ... Mzprox indeed sounds scared. 2metra mentioned something about seeing RB's army only recently - but we have always knew they were #1 in power, right? So did RB's power spiked dramatically recently?
Sounds also like Mzprox thinks he will be RB's preferred target for some reason(?).
The strangest part for me was that Mzprox said that since we are too weak to defend we should attack - does it make sense in terms of military strategy? True, attacker has an initiative and chooses timing and RB has probably mostly offensive army, but defender seems to have huge advantages in civ? My impression was that Mzprox got suddenly convinced that RB would attack Poly and that was the reason he was so keen on a "preventive strike" (?).
I am very curious what our generals think.
@2metra, congratulations on getting Mzprox to promise not to extend NAP with CivFr if they would not offer NAP to us, too.
Sounds also like Mzprox thinks he will be RB's preferred target for some reason(?).
The strangest part for me was that Mzprox said that since we are too weak to defend we should attack - does it make sense in terms of military strategy? True, attacker has an initiative and chooses timing and RB has probably mostly offensive army, but defender seems to have huge advantages in civ? My impression was that Mzprox got suddenly convinced that RB would attack Poly and that was the reason he was so keen on a "preventive strike" (?).
I am very curious what our generals think.
@2metra, congratulations on getting Mzprox to promise not to extend NAP with CivFr if they would not offer NAP to us, too.
If MZ is scared as it sounds, and he will truly be the first to Rifles, then maybe now is the time to pressure him to agree to spearhead a joint 3 way invasion. Yes RB has huge military, but with some drafted/whipped Rifles, Poly should be able to absorb alot of that pain, or at least take a good chunk of land from RB.
RB will potentially be forced to choose between fighting the Rifles, or allowing Poly to cripple them in order to save their Army to keep CP and CFC at bay.
RB will potentially be forced to choose between fighting the Rifles, or allowing Poly to cripple them in order to save their Army to keep CP and CFC at bay.
2metra's chat with MZ of Apolyton and our team responses (copied from Spanish thread):
Umm, wrong thread?
Very interesting chat you had there. Good to hear that Poly seems to be more and more on board with the plan to take out RB. Especially as they pull ahead in score and can really see themselves winning this thing, with only RB standing in their way.
Scooter just offered us the same "conditional" NAP where we have an option to pull out if they attack any of our allies. I see this as a good sign. If they're fishing around for NAPs with everyone, it's because they really want to take the time to develop this new land and they don't think they can defend all their borders against the three of us
Notice that 2metra probed him a little on the "Get a NAP with RB and go after CivFr now, RB later" plan... MZ replied that he still wants to get RB first... Not surprising, as RB is now all that stands between Poly, and the lead, but I will repeat that now may be the time to bring up the idea of a Poly-Spearheaded attack.
Since Poly will be #2 and the most advanced military, an invasion by Poly is the most likely to be seen as a possible power move, rather than the beginning of a joint strike. If Cp attacks first on the othe hand, RB will be absolutely certain that this is part of a larger alliance move and they may ignore CP and just DoW us instead. Indiansmoke did something like that to AMAZON in the last game... Q attacked him, and he just DoWed AMAZON in response, because he guessed that we were allies.
Since Poly will be #2 and the most advanced military, an invasion by Poly is the most likely to be seen as a possible power move, rather than the beginning of a joint strike. If Cp attacks first on the othe hand, RB will be absolutely certain that this is part of a larger alliance move and they may ignore CP and just DoW us instead. Indiansmoke did something like that to AMAZON in the last game... Q attacked him, and he just DoWed AMAZON in response, because he guessed that we were allies.
2metraninja
Defender of Nabaxica
Thanks Sommers for moving those to the correct thread. It was late night for me and I was clicking without seen where I click.
Poly leading the attack seems most logical. One thing mostly stops me from believing this will what will happen. MZ's cautiousness. He will just keep teching happy while keeping enough army to fend off any attack if he dont see clear chance to hurt RB serious and most important, advantage their own team from it.
On the other hand, he is known for exaggerating the problems he have and leaving him space to maneuver, where actually when the time comes, he will be brave and daring if he see possibility for that.
Poly leading the attack seems most logical. One thing mostly stops me from believing this will what will happen. MZ's cautiousness. He will just keep teching happy while keeping enough army to fend off any attack if he dont see clear chance to hurt RB serious and most important, advantage their own team from it.
On the other hand, he is known for exaggerating the problems he have and leaving him space to maneuver, where actually when the time comes, he will be brave and daring if he see possibility for that.
talonschild
Drive-By NESer
Please tell me we'll actually provide this line of reasoning up-front, with the intent of getting RB's army out of position.
2metraninja
Defender of Nabaxica
Which one, Talons?
talonschild
Drive-By NESer
This:
Maybe throw in a little something about RB's army being on their border with us.
Sommerswerd said:
Maybe throw in a little something about RB's army being on their border with us.
This is why I have always been a bit surprised why we kept insisting that "Realms Beyondo delenda est"
. It had always seemed to me that natural leader of such a coalition would be a #2 civ - so currently Poly, previously CivFr. On the other hand, based on what MzProx said so far, I do not think he is going to do it - but no harm in explaining it to him why he should lead the attack
.
If he refuses then we get a bargaining chip with him. We agree to lead the attack and ask him to give us some Rifles or rights to larger share of land (or whatever).
2metraninja
Defender of Nabaxica
And finally, one chat with MZ about our common future:
MZprox: back to the topic about what to do with uciv and such
Изпратено в 15:09, сряда
MZprox: I'm not sure yet
but somewhat seems logical
since that nap ends at t210 i wonder if we would agree on a nap extension between us to t220
Изпратено в 15:10, сряда
аз: I am sure we will agree
even a bit longer
10t is not much really
MZprox: yes but it's still 40t in the future..
i don't like long naps
аз:
I am sooooo suspicios why ot4e brought those frenchies
Изпратено в 15:13, сряда
MZprox: I1m sure not more suspicious than me
though we have long term buisness relations with aztec.. we promised them half of our shrine income and also we owe them a great person
аз: oh, this I've done too
"in peace or in war, you owe me half the income from the shrine"
Изпратено в 15:16, сряда
MZprox: altogether we pay a fortune for that great prophet, but still better for us to have the shrine
аз: guess go
so*
MZprox: about the nap: if we really get into an other war, either against uciv or maya I1m sure we can extend it (well before it ends)
аз: btw, did ot4e + frenchies have together 10+ cuirs in the RB south, or each of them have 10+ cuirs there?
MZprox: together
аз: do you think war vs ot4e's beloved frenchies is possible?
MZprox: sure why not?
аз: with or without him?
MZprox: that
i don1t know
it could work either way
аз:
ot4e would not raise a hand against them, despite how much he try to insult and belittle them
to show lack of affection towards them
Изпратено в 15:20, сряда
MZprox: i don't understand maya or hre's diplomacy.. maybe because they are lacking
normally maya should had helped rb from the beginning or sooner
аз: absolutely
Изпратено в 15:24, сряда
аз: you know that some bodies in Cosmos cannot be seen, but the scientist can be sure they exist by the gravity disturbance they create. well, I think there is such discurbance about how French played and this is towards Ot4e this gravity
MZprox: if it was a diplogame I would start working against you, but since it's not our best bet is to secure peace with you and likely choose common targets. Now maya +hre+aztec could still make a formidable party against us, but I doubt it will happen
аз: I doubt HRE will do much too
Изпратено в 15:26, сряда
MZprox: they are researching rifling.. so at least they want to build some military
аз: hmm, interesting info
MZprox: why maya want's liberalism i dunno..
аз:
MZprox: it could had beeen a very good investment
аз: if RB played well?
MZprox: yes
аз: who knows
MZprox: losing 10 rifles as a defender from a same sized army.. eh
аз:
classical_hero
In whom I trust
Are we worried about what OzzyKP said?
2metraninja
Defender of Nabaxica
Of course not.
2metraninja
Defender of Nabaxica
So, we are not the only who came to the great idea of extorting money from Uciv 
MZ said Uciv contacted him too asking for NAP and he wants to make them pay some money. Do we share with him our plans so we can act like block and get for sure money from Uciv, but then we will have to divide the spoils. Or we keep silent and hope we will be more scary to Uciv so they give money to us first and not to him?
MZ said Uciv contacted him too asking for NAP and he wants to make them pay some money. Do we share with him our plans so we can act like block and get for sure money from Uciv, but then we will have to divide the spoils. Or we keep silent and hope we will be more scary to Uciv so they give money to us first and not to him?
Similar threads
