Foreign Policy: RealmsBeyond

[Magno_uy]

looks like RB is not planning any attack , but smells that could be attacked by more of one of theirs neighbors...
would not be T200 to late to attack them?

 

[RegentMan]

They just want 25 extra turns to build up and get even stronger. This is why they included the "opt out" clause- they have no plans to invade anyone after the Germans are gone because they are hoping they can just build in peace, so offering us this clause does not hurt them one bit. I am against this NAP proposal, and any others they offer. We need to come up with a nit-pick or two in our reply to keep this going back and forth.

 

[Magno_uy]

Im agry, this NAP helps more them that its helps us...

it does not allow as to attack , what its a real option, and does not allow them attack us, whats its not a real option
Im think they are trying to brake the alliance against then in the weaker point. Thats us.

I would said no, and tell our allies about this offer.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Stay strong 2metra old buddy... If we do not slay this dragon now, it will be too big to kill later and eat us up for sure

I agree with Regent, Magno and 2metra. We gain nothing from this version of the NAP, it just gives RB the time they need to grow stronger, and takes the wind out of the sails of our alliance. I do think we should tell CP and Poly that RB is begging us for a NAP though so that RB does not go to them first and tell them that we are negotiating a NAP behind their backs.

And I am telling you that they will offer us something better anyway if we wait. We would be fools to accept this.

UCiv and CivFr just want to land-grab to develop peacefully. CivFr is refusing peace to keep us scared to settle the Zulu lands, but they have no plan to attack us. Neither of them will attack us if we don't attack them first.

 

[cav scout]

Accepting this NAP would doom any coherent anti-RB coalition i'm afraid. As long as RB can keep us divided and doubting each other they can continue to grow unthreatened.

We will turn this one down and they will offer an even sweeter one. RB wants to divide and conquer. Once we accept they will have won.

 

[Bowsling]

We might as well drag out the negotiations as long as we possibly can, though.

What if we offer them a hypothetical military alliance vs. CivFr? As long as we don't commit to it, this would doubly serve as valuable diplomatic weaponry to keep our allies honest.

 

[Maga_R]

Both CP and Poly told us clearly that they think the only logical option for RB would be to cooperate with CivFr against us. If we refuse to give RB even short-term NAP, that is very likely what is going to happen. We still have a honorable way to avoid this danger, our NAP with RB would allow us to help anybody attacked by RB except of Germans, that seem beyond helping anyway.

 

[YossarianLives]

Yeah, Germans will be long gone by the time T175 rolls around.

We need to come up with a nit-pick or two in our reply to keep this going back and forth.

I'm thinking we ask them for units as a condition of the NAP. Sell it to them like it's a win-win since they won't want to be paying for the cost of all those leftover soldiers from the German war. Tell them they have to start transferring troops immediately, since they should mostly be done fighting and we need the troops ASAP.

 

[YossarianLives]

This is a very important matter and we are a democratic team - I think we should have a formal and a confidential vote on whether we like RB's NAP offer.

I can put up a vote, but I think it would be best to have more discussion about the issue first. Scooter said himself that we can take our time, we have at least a month before our current NAP runs out.

 

[vranasm]

I think we should consult this offer with our allies.

Maybe they will see this as an opportunity for our alliance to come at RB even more prepared? not sure... from how MZ talks seems to me like he is kinda the weakest link with his "i don't know how much I want to commit and how many units I can pump out in so small amount of time"...

for us should be most important view from ot4e because they seem to be our strongest ally and I feel like we're already commited with them to go through this game.

MZ is kinda wildcard, but we should talk about it with him too...

don't forget RB most probably already sent something very similar to MZ too...

@yossa

some of the things you propose I feel are borderline amoral... I would prefer if we stay on moral side of things and don't straight out lie about our intentions (teasing units from RB etc...)

 

[2metraninja]

Yes, MZ is the most tricky and slippery. But problem with this is that MZ will have the most powerful army, where CP will have the least powerful army in our alliance. Something like 1:2:3 - this is CP:CFColy in relative army strength at t 175. So, if there is someone to be convinced in something and his opinion to have impact on the real situation, then it is MZ.

 

[vranasm]

Yes, MZ is the most tricky and slippery. But problem with this is that MZ will have the most powerful army, where CP will have the least powerful army in our alliance. Something like 1:2:3 - this is CP:CFColy in relative army strength at t 175. So, if there is someone to be convinced in something and his opinion to have impact on the real situation, then it is MZ.

as I said we need to consult both of our allies...
but we shouldn't be too surprised if MZ would actually prefer with waiting a bit with attack on RB.

Solving the CivFR puzzle can be good deal for us too...

most worrying seems to be where will CP get some more land if I understood the layout of map right?

 

[2metraninja]

Solving the CivFR puzzle can be good deal for us too...

Exactly, but it seems MZ's team prefer to tackle RB instead. They dont feel threatened by French.

most worrying seems to be where will CP get some more land if I understood the layout of map right?

This I was thinking was the best part about the idea of attacking and partitioning French first. That we 3 actually get some land to develop on.

 

[Maga_R]

for us should be most important view from ot4e because they seem to be our strongest ally and I feel like we're already commited with them to go through this game.

OT4E position is weaker than Mzprox. And OT4E is convinced - correctly or not - that RB would go after him (first). So that makes sense for him to be committed to the RB alliance most. (By the same reasoning, I think anti-CivFr allinace would make most sense to us )

don't forget RB most probably already sent something very similar to MZ too...

Very good point. Anyway, I think we should talk with CP and Poly first out of basic decency, but that is another good reason

 

[Maga_R]

Exactly, but it seems MZ's team prefer to tackle RB instead. They dont feel threatened by French.

This I was thinking was the best part about the idea of attacking and partitioning French first. That we 3 actually get some land to develop on.

That is exactly what I see as the main problem - that our allies kinda made the most important strategic decisions for us That is why I advocated taking short-term NAP with RB - until CP's and Poly's NAPs with CivFr would expire (turn 190?) and then re-design our alliance in a more symmetric manner and to deal (also) with CivFr.

 

[Caledorn]

CP would be a natural next target for RB due to their holy cities, right? Just something to keep in mind..

 

[Sommerswerd]

I agree that you are normally good at admitting you are wrong. But you seem to be blindsided by your dislike of RB.

It's not any dislike of RB that motivates me here, rather that I still think that RB poses the biggest threat to win the game (and thus defeat us) right now. That is why I remain reluctant to let RB off the hook.

We are talking about a serious matter here: you were convincing the team that we should not consider RB's NAP offer at all as it was not real. You were wrong. You refuse to admit it

I will repeat this again... At the time (2 weeks ago) when we were discussing betting about RB's intentions, I thought (and still think) that they did not want a NAP with us at that time because they thought our mess with CivFr worked to their advantage.

1. We would be too worried about them hitting us from behind to conquer CivFr
2. Once the NAP was over they could join CivFr and cripple us.

Now that it has become clear that CivFr is not going to invade us and CivFr has possibly rejected (or ignored) RB attempts to form alliance... And Poly and CP have continued to reject RB's NAP request (because of their agreements/loyalty to us), RB is more inclined to want a NAP with us than they were 2 weeks ago.

That is my opinion of the situation. However, at the time we were discussing a bet, I don't think that I forsaw that RB would change their mind and become desperate for a NAP with us. So I was wrong about that, because they are definitely desperate to NAP with us now.

Anyway, the whole purpose of the bet was my hope that you may realize your anti-RB bias - looks like I lost anyway .

Not to worry, I realize it. RB is the principle threat to us, to everyone, not CivFr, so I am definitely biased to focus attention on stopping RB. I admit it.

Oh... and also, I think that Realms Beyond must be destroyed.

 

[Caledorn]

Oh... and also, I think that Realms Beyond must be destroyed.

Delenda est, eh?

 

[YossarianLives]

@yossa

some of the things you propose I feel are borderline amoral... I would prefer if we stay on moral side of things and don't straight out lie about our intentions (teasing units from RB etc...)

Well, I guess amoral is better than immoral!

I definitely want to keep us on the right track and don't want to say or do anything the team is uncomfortable with. I definitely wouldn't say or do anything that I consider an outright lie. For me, there is a difference between saying "We will accept this deal with the following changes" (not ok if we don't mean it), and "What do you think about the following changes to your proposed deal?" (perfectly ok regardless of what our intention is).

It's tough trying to keep RB guessing about our intentions without lying outright or crossing the line over to deceiptfulness, so I appreciate the feedback. I will hold off on talking about unit gifts.

Should we talk to our allies and feel them out before we make a decision as a team how we want to proceed on this offer, or do we want to figure out what we want to do ourselves before we speak with our allies. Personally, I think it would be best to know what our allies are thinking before we make our decision.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Delenda est, eh?

You got it

And also I think RB must be destroyed.