Foreign Policy: UniversCiv

[2metraninja]

We also have something like issue with Uciv. I see their settler near Baraha and it looks headed generally towards west - maybe to claim the west side of the mountains - I dont see where else they might be going with it.

We had some request from WPC that they settle this land, despite if they settle it it will take some of the geographically ours tiles. Now it becomes even more complicated with the Uciv settler. What we do about it? Talk with WPC and give them the right to settle there to make them owe us favor and leave to them the hassle of arguing with Uciv? Talk with Uciv and tell them we want that spot as it is geographically closest to our capitol? Dont talk to anyone and simply whip a settler and settle it?

 

[Sommerswerd]

I don't think we have time/resources for settler races right now. We should be trying to make allies to fight RB and/or CivFr. Trying to deny UCiv a settling spot will not help us. Why is this spot so vital? Did we promise to defend it at all cost for WPC? I think telling WPC that UCiv might take it if they don't hurry is the only thing we should do if we promised to leave the spot open for WPC. We can't control what UCiv does.

 

[2metraninja]

It is not vital, it is just really in our sphere of influence. We've been robbed for land on each borders. It is just emotional thing. It is close to our capitol and should have little maintenance. But it is not great spot either. ALso, it is just 1 city distance to our capitol, but well... You are right that we need friends. It is just sad that we fought 2 wars and erased whole nation to get land from Zulu and our own land stays unsettled

Anyway, with our new Forbidden Palace we will be able to settle our Zulu land and there are way better spots for settling.

 

[Sommerswerd]

It is not vital, it is just really in our sphere of influence. We've been robbed for land on each borders. It is just emotional thing.

I hope that you will agree that we are way beyond the point where we can afford conflicts or War over emotions and/or principles. We already allowed such to get us tricked into a War once, we should not make this mistake this time.

We can always come back and punish them for insults and such later.

 

[YossarianLives]

Yeah, the land up there really sucks. No food resources and covered in Jungle. Eventually it will be good as its mostly green, but will take tons of time for whoever is setting it up. I think it's fine to let it go.

I think the more pressing issue was that we were offering that land to WPC in exchange for units to use against RB. If the land is no longer available, then WPC has no reason to give us any units. However, based on the last chat 2metra had with them, it seems like they're still willing to give us units, even after we told them UCiv was sending a settler to the area.

 

[cav scout]

Are we wanting to sow discord between WPC and UCiv?

If so we can send a message to UCiv saying: "It looks like you are sending a settler into an area that we consider our sphere of influence. We previously agreed to allow WPC to settle in the location you are now headed towards. We would ask that you settle somewhere else."

We then tell WPC: "We tried to tell UCiv that we set this land aside for your team but they settled it anyways..."

 

[YossarianLives]

Ok, we have a problem. UCiv is sending a settler through our newly conquered lands, presumably to settle near the Deer resource by one of the Zulu cities we razed. We obviously cannot allow this. However, we have a long NAP with UCiv (T220? 225?).

I really don't see many tools we have in place to stop them from proceeding with this settler. This really sucks that we put in ALL the hard work to eliminate the Spaniards, but the French teams assume they can swoop in and take all the spoils for free?

Here's a starting point for a message to them:

Hi UCiv,

We noticed your settler going through our lands towards the former Zulu territory that we fought very hard to take. We obviously consider all former Zulu lands to be rightfully earned by our team. I am sure that we can work something out with you to avoid any conflict. But we cannot allow you to settle in this area without discussing it with us first. We worked out a border agreement that was very advantageous to your team earlier, giving you a lot of valuable land that is much closer to our core than yours, so we hope that you understand that we have been very reasonable with you on this. Let's discuss a settling agreement for this area before you plant any cities in our sphere of influence.

Team CFC

 

[2metraninja]

So, as Bistrita alarmed, we have a situation with Uciv possibly stealing the deer site, which is quite nice piece of land and for which we fought wars to get. I dont know how those guys even came to the idea of sending settler to settle there. Are they gone out of their mind? Or CivFR is whispering in their ears in French?

I will send them the following message in very short:

Greetings, fellow neighbors,

We saw your settler on our borders last turn and as we thought you are sending him to settle the land west of the elephant mountains and possibly claim the banana resource in the west, and we had a little discussion in our team should we raise the question as we consider those lands slightly more in our sphere of influence and we decided to not say anything as we value the good neighborhood we have and friendship are more important than land.

But now we realize that you are most probably headed to settle the Deer location where we razed Zulu city? Please, do not do so, it is land we fought really hard for, we fought 2 wars in the last 50 turns and killed like 40 zulu units to win and have rights over the ex-zulu lands. This is the second best city spot in the land we took from Zulus and we never thought that someone else can have claims on. Please, please, return your settler, if you really intended to settle in our freshly conquered land... if we have to live with the idea of this, it will make us very disappointed and sad.

Please, write us back quick that you will return your settler, tell us even before the end of this current turn, so we are calm that we can rely on our great relations so far in the future too.

Please, please, do us this good.

2metraninja,
Team CFC Captain

edit: crosspost with Yossa

 

[2metraninja]

I really don't see many tools we have in place to stop them from proceeding with this settler. This really sucks that we put in ALL the hard work to eliminate the Spaniards, but the French teams assume they can swoop in and take all the spoils for free?

We do have tool to deny them settling there. If we close borders the settler will be thrown back in their territory.

This of course will be last resort of action.

I can even live with letting them settle it and then when we culture-bomb the French North front, we will push them back too Or telling them in advance their settlement there will have no the desired effect, as we intend to culture - bomb the area against French and their potential city there will suffer the hit too?

BTW, I think we must really try with the good side. And the part where you mention how generous we were towards them in our past border agreements is very good which I will be happy to include in my please-please message.

We must send message right now. It is about night in Europe. We have 30 minutes to discuss and then we must send it.

We must avoid them settling it and possible hostile fron at t200 (when our NAP ends) at all costs. Now is the time to act.

 

[bistrita]

mesage fine by me send.

 

[YossarianLives]

Yeah, I was thinking how amazing a Great Artist would be right about now, but I didn't think we were anywhere near having one. A culture bomb in Ulundi (or better yet, in the re-settled Nobambo) would solve so many of our problems!

 

[2metraninja]

(or better yet, in the re-settled Nobambo) would solve so many of our problems!

This is what we thinked about with Bistrita lately. We can have a GA in 8-9 turns and few turns to move it in position.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Sending a message is fine, but we should realize the possibility that CiVFr is doing the same as SpAp did to us, trying to provoke us into conflict with another team. Do not turn UCiv into a CivFr ally against us. Its not worth it. We still have open lands to settle (and potential lands to take from RB)

 

[Maga_R]

Ok, we have a problem. UCiv is sending a settler through our newly conquered lands, presumably to settle near the Deer resource by one of the Zulu cities we razed. We obviously cannot allow this. However, we have a long NAP with UCiv (T220? 225?).

I really don't see many tools we have in place to stop them from proceeding with this settler. This really sucks that we put in ALL the hard work to eliminate the Spaniards, but the French teams assume they can swoop in and take all the spoils for free?

Here's a starting point for a message to them:

I like Yossarian's message. Or 2metra's, with removing some of the "please" - sounds somewhat desperate the way it is. Re-settling the city we just conquered would be obviously rather hostile, hopefully UCiv will realize it. Do they know the deer site is where the Zulu city was?

 

[2metraninja]

Sending the please-please draft with added line about how generously gave them the Elephants and Sugar last time.

Will also send them in-game message with added map-trade request where I tell them about the issue. They will get notification in their personal mails from the APT server and on logging in to the game they will see the message about our mail.

 

[2metraninja]

Or 2metra's, with removing some of the "please" - sounds somewhat desperate the way it is. Re-settling the city we just conquered would be obviously rather hostile, hopefully UCiv will realize it.

I think they have idea this would be not very nice towards us. And they did took in to consideration we might be upset. So threatening them will only firm their position on the case. And we will look like making empty threats as we cant declare them a war. What I want to achieve with please-please is to call upon their common sense and make them think we are not mad at them already. If they think we are mad, they will do whatever they decided anyway, as they will suspect they will get the diplomatic hit anyway - settling or not settling. Also, commanding is not the way to try to deal with opponents. I think a please-please approach can have higher chance of success just because of those reasons I just listed.

Plus, we have 2 possibilities - either they reconsider and return it, or they reject our wish. But it is easier to reject a threatening message than a humble one. And they will feel bad when we close borders and throw their settler back for not had returning it themselves while keeping good relations with us for showing mercy and understanding.

 

[2metraninja]

Sent the following:

CivFanatics Team <diplo.civfanatics@gmail.com>

11:07 PM (0 minutes ago)

to Lala
Greetings, fellow neighbors,

We saw your settler on our borders last turn and as we thought you are sending him to settle the land west of the elephant mountains and possibly claim the banana resource in the west, and we had a little discussion in our team should we raise the question as we considered those lands slightly more in our sphere of influence and we decided to not say anything as we value the good neighborhood we have with you.

But now we realize that you are most probably headed to settle the Deer location where we razed Zulu city? Please, do not do so, it is land we fought really hard for, we fought 2 wars in the last 50 turns and killed like 40 zulu units to win and take the ex-zulu lands. This is the second best city spot in the land we took from Zulus and we never thought that someone else will have claims on. Please, please, return your settler if you really intended to settle in our freshly conquered land... if we have to live with the idea of this, it will make us very disappointed and sad.

In our dealings so far we believe have set tone of respect and generosity. For example when discussing who will get the Elephants and the sugar between our two team.

Please, write us back quick that you will reconsider and return your settler, tell us even before the end of this current turn, so we are calm that we can rely on our great relations so far in the future too.

Please, please, do us this good.

2metraninja,
Team CFC Captain

 

[2metraninja]

Sending a message is fine, but we should realize the possibility that CiVFr is doing the same as SpAp did to us, trying to provoke us into conflict with another team. Do not turn UCiv into a CivFr ally against us. Its not worth it. We still have open lands to settle (and potential lands to take from RB)

Yes, we will not declare Uciv war over this, not even I wanted to sound threatening, this is why all the please-please. But nothing stops us from trying to keep what is ours and not give it away with easy hand.

 

[Maga_R]

So threatening them will only firm their position on the case.

Well, there are more options between sounding somewhat desperat and threatening I simply liked Yossa's message better - did not sound threathening to me at all.

BTW, I do'nt think this "please, please" stuff is a big deal, it is just a bit strange. But if this is the effect you were aiming for for some complex mind games, it is all good

 

[Aivoturso]

Wasn't our original NAP with UCiv (and therefore the extension also) dependent on a border agreement that we adjusted because of the Elephants UCiv wanted to have? IMO, settling a city on our side of the water is pretty much stretching the border agreement and thus NAP. If they respond that they have right to settle as they please, we can point out that we consider the NAP include the already negotiated border treaty as well.