Foundation and Empire #4

I'd have most certainly explored west, along the river. Ideally your first expansion will be on that river so you don't need to build roads to it. As it stands, i prefer the blue square. It's closer, is connected, and
Spoiler :
has horses, revealed soon
. Only problem is you'll need a border pop to work the wheat. If you're looking at orange square, I'd move it 1n for the elephants. If you get a library up your second ring should beat out Genghis's third ring, since he's not really a culture type of guy. But really, you should explore the Western river before settling.


BTW, I played this a bit and with pyramids (teehee!) and libraries, it wasn't too hard to attack with elepults by around 500bc.
 
bad location on blue square, should be SW of wheat if scouting does not reveal more ~~
Important imo for new players, don't found your cities with food in 2nd ring if avoidable.
Fresh water bonus doesn't matter.
 
^Two hills, stone and a plains cow is plenty hammers. Not settling 1S on this start is ridiculous.
Spoiler :
By settling on phants you gain 1H but you lose 4H and 2C that the riverside grassland hill and camp would give you. Imo once you start settle/worker spam you'll make up any early difference you might have made in worker turns.
Agriculture -> Hunting -> Animal Husbandry is the normal tech line here. On Noble, with these tiles, AH arrives early enough that the worker doesn't actually miss any turns.
Spoiler :
I prefer Agr>AH>Min>BW>Hunting>Masonry>Myst. Let's you improve corn, pasture, FP, complete half a road to pasture/corn, then on top of the close glh river tile and chop. Timing works out so as soon as you reach 6 pop (unhappy), your 2nd worker pops out right as your finishing the mine, then the camp is done very quick so all good. Then improve the quarry, make a road to your 2nd city, AND chop out SH there in the 1700s. Plus, I always want the option to chop asap.
@ Voice
Spoiler :
I know you're trying to make this as easy and straight forward as possible but why completely tie your hands? What I'm saying is I think its perfectly reasonable, even for someone trying to learn to chop out SH, especially in there 2nd city so they get more freedom for city placement. Is there anything wrong with 1 quick wonder that saves hammers and time needed for border pops?
BTW, I played this a bit and with pyramids (teehee!) and libraries, it wasn't too hard to attack with elepults by around 500bc.
Spoiler :
I played to 1000 AD myself, but in the spirit of keeping within Voices parameters the only Wonder I made was SH because I think that's reasonable. So I stuck with cottages (which I hate) and after Myst went Pottery>Writing>Math>Construction (founded 3 cities only) and literally chopped everything down and had a stack of like 20 Cats and 15 Axe/Spear (phants is overkill on this level) before it was all done. Took over 3 AIs, 20 cities, and Liberalism a few turns away.
 
I prefer Agr>AH>Min>BW>Hunting>Masonry>Myst.

It's reasonable, assuming you want to introduce that degree of complexity into the tech path. I prefer not to - again, I'm leaning back on the inspiration of the Spanish, and the idea that natural moves lead to a reasonable position.

The justification for postponing Hunting isn't wrong, so much as too subtle for what I'm aiming for.

Mind you, I'm still having trouble with the discipline here.

I know you're trying to make this as easy and straight forward as possible but why completely tie your hands? What I'm saying is I think its perfectly reasonable, even for someone trying to learn to chop out SH, especially in there 2nd city so they get more freedom for city placement.

Bluntly, because in the hands of a weak player, Stonehenge is a crutch.

It's a strong play here, but it's not a strong play for the reasons that my hypothetical novice audience thinks that it's a strong play, and I'd rather it not get in the way of other lessons - for instance, choosing better locations for initial cities.

I don't object to the discussion - I think it's a useful tangent; but when/if I sit down to right "the guide" that goes along with all of this, that kind of a decision is going to be out of bounds.
 
given that the noble AI seems to keep stacks of 2-4 units in its cities, i suspect pure phant will be more effective than catapults. Why bother with collateral vs so few units?
 
given that the noble AI seems to keep stacks of 2-4 units in its cities, i suspect pure phant will be more effective than catapults. Why bother with collateral vs so few units?

I played it two times, once with a HA rush and the other with Cats/Melee and the later had better results. Not sure if its because I lost less units or a combination of siege and more units. I thought it was odd too because I started my HA war sooner. I might have to retry with Phants.
 
What is the reasoning for not playing both cities one closer to the Khan and on a fresh water source? Ie yellow 1E and orange 1N.

Sure, yellow will be culture choked and cause diplomatic strain with the Khan, but it seems that you are preferring a non-diplomatic resolution anyway; and the tiles seem equivalent or better (at least on quick glance).
 
What is the reasoning for not playing both cities one closer to the Khan and on a fresh water source? Ie yellow 1E and orange 1N.

Sure, yellow will be culture choked and cause diplomatic strain with the Khan, but it seems that you are preferring a non-diplomatic resolution anyway; and the tiles seem equivalent or better (at least on quick glance).

In the case of yellow, it's simply a matter of liking the resulting dot map better - in other words, if the Mongolian capital were already yours, where would you put the city? (Answer: unclear, because we don't have enough visibility about surplus food on the west side).

In the case of orange, it's really a matter of not liking those norther deserts very much, and getting more trees from the southern location. Honestly, I don't find either of the orange locations particularly compelling, except that at this point there's nothing else.
 
By settling on phants you gain 1H but you lose 4H and 2C that the riverside grassland hill and camp would give you. Imo once you start settle/worker spam you'll make up any early difference you might have made in worker turns.

You'll never catch up to a +1hammer start unless that start gives up something good like a 5F tile of gems/gold which could help you in the midgame.
 
You'll never catch up to a +1hammer start unless that start gives up something good like a 5F tile of gems/gold which could help you in the midgame.

I find that hard to believe. What if it's your only hill/ production resource? What if you give up several grassland river tiles?

What about a +1 food or commerce start?
 
Of course you can create exceptions if you want to, but usually a 2-hammer start is massively awesome. It makes building initial workers, exploring/anti-barb units and settlers so much easier.
If there's something massively awesome about not settling on the 2-hammer tile, or there's something massively sucky about settling it, then fine, don't do it. This game falls under neither of those categories.
 
I find that hard to believe.

And you'd be correct, at least in this game, assuming you took my tech path. The 2H start doesn't allow you to research all the techs quick enough by the time your 2nd worker worker is out (when growing to 6 pop) to maximize all the production/commerce you gave up and in addition it would make you lose some worker turns, or rather, you'd have to be building roads instead of improving better tiles for hammers/commerce.

This game falls under neither of those categories.

Agreed. I played it out many times using both methods and a lot depends on your build/tech order,
 
i just want to say that if you load the 'real initial savegame' and forgot about the revealed land after settling in place, one has to have good fog gazing skills to understand that the only possible place where map normalizer could place food is 2S from initial position where your settler stands.

you're standing in between trees and don't see much. thus you have to understand the clipping of terrain and see that indeed there is all forested tiles to east and west and holes are only south.

Flood plain is only half food if I remember right the normalization process so there has to be some more, but if there would be holes north west you would risk abandoning your only food.
 
yes, but we CAN see all the forests so we know where the food is =] Of course, novice players might not realize this =p
 
Turn 25...

T025.map.png


I've been sloppy with production micro, so the warrior arrives a turn late. But I'll switch to a settler right after that.

There are three natural points to start pushing out settlers. One is to grow the capital to the happy cap. Initial worker(s) improve tiles locally, then move off with the new Settler to establish the next base camp.

The second is to start training the settler at size 4, which opens up a 2 pop whip (assuming you revolt into slavery early enough).

The third alternative is to start training settlers when you run out of good tiles. The math here is that growing onto a "normal" tile doesn't typically reduce the time it takes to train a settler. This is essentially a consequence of the law of diminishing returns -- corn plus cows plus the city tile plus one hammer of overflow is enough production for a 9 turn settler. Adding another mine gives you a 8 turn settler - but the training starts 3-4 turns later.

Add a second mine, and your still looking at a 7 turn settler, having waited an additional 3-4 turns to grow.

None of these are wrong in a general sense; but there are trade offs. In a cramped setting with a good site in the contested region, I'm happy to trade some short term production capacity to get the location I want.

Yellow square is not, in my mind, that good a property in isolation -- I'm looking at it's forward position as the starting point for my war against the Mongols. A second minor food tile in the cross would certainly do it.

Additionally, the main theme of my plan is LAND, so I should go claim some.

In a more open position, I might grow more, on the grounds that I need to sink more early hammers into fog busting.

If the plan were RUSH, I would likely be looking at hurrying a settler to Blue Square to hook up the horses, so that I might most quickly deliver a stack of 10 or so chariots to the mongol doorstep. My belief is that the right play in that instance is to hurry the settler out -- but there are plenty of folks around who better understand how rush calculations work out in practice.

Red Square, despite the relatively crappy desert conditions, turns out to be a useful location. It would be my first settling choice in an uncramped peaceful game; but it's somewhat slow to develop (resource(s) in the second ring, improving flood plains takes extra time. Since I'm not worried about being beaten to that location, I'm willing to postpone it one settler.

I'm also looking at putting Gems+Cows on that plains hill to the south. It kind of sucks taking a good tile away from the capital permanently, but gems are probably worth it. There's no hurry here, as I can't improve the gems until iron working.

So the immediate priority for the next turn set is to get Yellow Square connected. Since I start with the Wheel, it should be connected as well. I'll want to get the culture going, so Mysticism is going to be important there.
 
I ran through this partway, following the mantra of "take all available land", and took 8-ish cities before realizing that I could easily get 12-15 cities before running out of land. Some of them were pretty far off but maintenance isn't a big deal on noble.
With that many cities,
-you can easily head straight to victory without taking anyone else's land.
-your short-term tech rate is slowed down to the point that it would have been more efficient to stay small, reach a war tech and roll some AIs

At what point do you decide you've built enough settlers and prep for war?
 
"Production micro"
"2 pop whip"
"fog busting"
"RUSH"
... this sounds like "advanced" Noble player speak.
... did I misread the OP?

I probably should just let VoU answer for himself, but I'll explain the terms:

1. "Production micro"--micromanagement is when you don't let the city governor do its job. The governor doesn't know that you only need the worker the turn before you get X technology or that you're goal is to grow more population by which time you'll get another mine built, that you plan to chop a forest in order to finish production, etc. By planning ahead, you can be smarter than the governor. It's not even hard, just tedious.

2. "2 pop whip"--whipping has two costs: the +1 unhappiness in the city and the lost citizens. If you can whip two citizens just before you grow a new citizen and then let your city take 10 turns (for the +1 unhappy to wear off) before growing again, you can plan for the smallest loss possible. If you time it right, 2 pop whips will provide you with more production than working plains hill mines :crazyeye: :cool:

3. "Fog busting"--barbarians are timid creatures at heart. No really: they refuse to start out anywhere near any existing unit or city. In fact, they won't spawn A) where someone can see them or B) within two tiles of any unit. A smart player can take advantage of that by placing units about four spaces away from their cities in different directions

4. "Rush"--The idea is that if you're the first to a key military technology, you can use that advantage up until the enemy gets a counter to your unit. So, you want to minimize the time it takes you to get that technology and the time it takes you to build an army. An "early rush" (which is what people often mean here) has to balance between research and building units before you've got time to build your cities. If this is something that you want to do, you might want to consult a guide; you need to develop a sense of timing.
 
... this sounds like "advanced" Noble player speak.
... did I misread the OP?

No - it's schizophrenic.

This is a walkthru demonstration of a strategy guide that hasn't been written yet.

So there's some weird mixing of ideas because I'm trying to play a variant rule set without having discovered all of the rules first.

In addition, I'm trying to simplify the game for my target audience, without dumbing it down.

On top of that, I'm writing for three different audiences here - the target audience (who are looking for guidance), an intermediate audience (who get this much, but need hints about how the next level of complexity is addressed) and an advanced audience (who have their own ideas about how this project should be done, and offer useful critiques).
 
Back
Top Bottom