From what point was Germany doomed during WWII?

Except there weren't wildly different claims about the state of the German economy. As I already said, every minister of the German economy agreed about the Reich's instability, and thus economic necessity was the driving objective for almost all of Germany's campaigns.

Essentially your opinion is that the field of economics is magic and nobody understands it.
 
Except there weren't wildly different claims about the state of the German economy. As I already said, every minister of the German economy agreed about the Reich's instability, and thus economic necessity was the driving objective for almost all of Germany's campaigns.
That's true, but it doesn't necessarily mean that Germany was going to collapse or lose war because of economical problems. There were problems in Soviet economy in 1988, there are problems in Greek or U.S. economy today - who could or can predict what will happen a few years later?

There were too many different factors involved in possible war outcome - and many of them are far more reliable and easy to analyze. Such as preparedness of countries for war, their resources and what actually was happening in the battlefield.

Essentially your opinion is that the field of economics is magic and nobody understands it.
It can be compared to weather forecast. People may know many things about economical processes in general, but whole system is too complex to make reliable predictions for somewhat distanced future.

And abundance of different Economic schools of thought arguably shows that people's general understanding in this field is not as advanced as in other positivistic sciences.
 
Economics is actually a fairly simple system to figure out (at least at the basic level, which is all you need to predict most things). The problem, rather similar to politics, is that people approach it from an ideological viewpoint, rather than from an objective one, and you therefore get ridiculous projections like that one that claimed that 60% of American households would have two master bedrooms by 2012. This claim was made in 2006, recieving a great deal of mainstream publicity, while the economists who pointed out the coming economic collapse - of which there were many - tended to be confined to late-night television shows on obscure networks. I know; I watched many of these shows back then.

The economy of Nazi Germany was rotten to the core. Even its own economists recognised this. Albert Speer, who ran the German economy from 1941 onwards, recognised this. While many of Speer's comments are self-serving, it's been corroborated that he argued with Hitler early and often about the state of the German economy. If a non-economist with no economic training (Speer was, after all, merely an architect with a knack for administration) could see how bad Germany's economy was in 1941, how much more obvious must it have been to a trained economist? Such as, say Hjalmar Schacht, one of Speer's predecessors as the Minister for Economy, who repeatedly warned both Hitler and Goering that their economic policies were disastrous, and who resigned in 1937 in protest over the rearmament program, which he warned would cause inflation (it did). He was finally fired from his sole remaining position - head of the Reichsbank - in 1939, prior to the outbreak of war, for once again protesting Germany's economic policies. And Schacht was one of those who supported the Nazi regime.

The foolishness of Nazi economic policies was well-known among economists in the 1930s: it was just a case of Nazi economists deluding themselves by approaching economics from an ideological viewpoint, rather than from an objective viewpoint based upon logical projections. Rather similar to how many modern-da economists argue that deregulation will solve every economic problem, while others argue that only with massive government intervention can they be solved. In reality, it's the people in the middle, who don't have an ideological viewpoint to push, who are correct in their projections, which is something that is historically proven.

Even Goering eventually came to the realisation that the German economy was rotten, which is why he argued for the Anschluss and against war: he recognised that Germany needed raw materials in order to survive, but knew that it didn't possess the economic strength or industrial capacity to win a war against any of the major powers. The German victory over France surprised the hell out of him - as it did most people in the world - and enabled the German economy to hold out for far longer than it should have. But without Soviet backing and pillaging conquered territories, the German economy would have collapsed far sooner. Without the Anschluss, it likely wouldn't have made it to 1940, without the re-militarisation the Rhineland, it wouldn't have made it to 1938, without the Munich Pact, it was doomed to collapse early in the next decade, and so on. The best thing that ever happened to the German economy was the Nazi-Soviet Pact. It basically gave Germany everything it needed to last for half-a-decade or more. That's the only way Germany's economy could have survived: by becoming an economic appendage of the USSR. How tenable do you think such a situation would be? To either side?

Economics isn't that arcane, red_elk. Specific occurences - the Poseidon mining disaster, the collapse in share prices after terrorist attacks - are unpredictable, but overall trends - the dot com bubble bursting, the housing crisis of the last few years - are not. Though one cannont predict the exact moment something will happen (just as one can't predict the exact moment rain will start to fall - it can always be narrowed down to a fairly measurable period of time, especially the closer you get to the event. You don't know if the dot com bubble will burst in 2000 or 2002, but it will happen somewhere in that period. You don't know if the rain will come on Saturday or Sunday, but it'll be wet sometime on the weekend.

Like everything, the more data you have, the easier it is to make accurate predictions. And the closer to an event in economics (just like in a weather forecast ;)) the easier it gets to predict Exactly when something will happen. I'll use your weather analogy, even though it's imperfect, to illustrate this for you. It's easy to predict that a hurricane will devastate New Orleans. Predicting exactly when it will happen takes more data. And every single long-term projection of the German economy shows that it reached the point of no return in 1937 at the latest. My personal opinion is that Germany passed that point in 1935, when it continued to favour the armed forces over the creation of consumer goods, when the armed forces had already served their purpose.

I hope this has been enlightening for you. I suggest a quick check of Wikipedia pages devoted to the German economy of the period for further research. I'm only disappointed that most of the books on this aren't online, or I'd link to them for you.
 
Which was made inevitable by the Napoleonic Wars, and the creation of the Confederation of the Rhine.

Now, how do we make those inevitable?

That's easy. Napoleon was inevitable because of the French Revolution, which was inevitable because of the debt France accumulated through the years with their losses to Great Britain (I'll take it back to the Seven Year's War, I figure it's a bit of a stretch to take this back to the Hundred Years War, at least all at once. I'll leave that to someone else).
 
Well, I'm not thinking that economics is something arcane - not more arcane than weather forecast for sure. Economic predictions of large scale are always probabilistic and various depending on predictor, that's the major difference of it from say physics. Rain may not start even if it supposed to and was forecasted.

The economy of Nazi Germany was rotten to the core.
Fair enough, I'm merely pointing out that political events are not always predetermined by economical decisions. Even if economical collapse of Germany was inevitable in 1933-1935 (though I'm sure not all economists will agree on that), there were many other factors which influenced the possible outcome of war or even decisions to start war.

Like xchen08's example with North Korea and its rotten economy. It can collapse 10 times, but who can predict what will happen to the state and regime? Will it desintegrate tomorrow or last for the next 50 years? Nobody can say that for sure, at least basing only on facts about NK's economy.
 
Red Elk we can continue our previous discussion in this thread if You are interested:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=434135

Watch that documentary movie (with English subtitles). Also Russian historians and experts speak in that movie.

It is not about the Polish-Soviet war of 1919 - 1920 but they also mention this war (e.g. they say about the Soviet Westward Offensive of 1918 - 1919).

But don't get me wrong my purpose of creating that thread was not to start a political argument or something.

I posted it because there are many testimonies of surviving eyewitnesses of 1939 events (including mainly Polish soldiers and civilians) there.

And there are very few Polish sources translated into English about the September Campaign of 1939. This is one of them.
 
Ok, I'll see it later and if there is something worth commenting, I'll reply in your thread.
 
See it, see it.

In Part 5 of that video civilians (inhabitants of Brest-Litovsk) also say how "good" it was under Soviet occupation (1939 - 1941) compared to what you called "Polish occupation" (1921 - 1939). There is one Belarussian among those witnesses (he speaks Polish in the video but he has a clear Belarussian accent so I presume he is Belarussian). He says the same as Poles.

There was suddenly shortage of food (even such basic food like bread) under Soviet rule. It started suddenly just after the Red Army came ("shops were emptied very quickly" and "we had to stay in queues for many hours for a piece of bread" - that's what the old woman says).

Another man (in 1939 just a small boy) says how entire families of Poles were deported in a matter of days.

They also deported kids. When he came to school the next Monday half of his class was empty...

Soviets organized an absurd lecture for local inhabitants explaining what sugar is (that's what Communist propaganda told them about Poland - that in Poland there was bigger poverty than in the USSR, which was not true). The old woman says that she only laughed at this. :)

That is your "liberation".
 
That is your "liberation".
Sounds like you've just watched some Polish nationalist propaganda movies.
You really don't want to start political discussion as you claimed?
Or maybe I should start posting links to Russian documentaries about Polish "liberation" of Belorussia and Ukraine in 1920 and about their crimes against Soviet POWs?
 
For Polish nationalist propaganda movie they wouldn't have invited Russian experts (and here they did).

You really don't want to start political discussion as you claimed?

No.

But political aspects of that movie are also interesting.

It explains the long term plans of Stalin which were to cause a conflict between Nazi Germany and Capitalist States, cause these states to fight, let Nazi Germany to commit their crimes on Poland and these states, and then come as liberators from Nazi occupation - and thus seize power in large part of Europe.

As you can see this long term plan of Stalin fully succeeded. The USSR became the leading World Power in 1945 togethr with the USA.

And they controlled half of Europe and "supervised" the entire Communist world.

So yes - the USSR was in fact the only state which was trully victorious in WW2. Stalin achieved all of his goals.

This point of view explains why Stalin initially supported Hitler - both militarily (Poland) and economically.

Hitler appears as a fool and Stalin's unaware puppet - Stalin simply made Hitler do what he wanted him to do.

It also shows that Stalin was a much more intelligent and cunning leader than Hitler.

Stalin was evil, but he was genius comparable to Genghis Khan (maybe not the best comparison but you know what I mean).

Hitler was just a fool with sick dreams about the "race of masters" and world domination - unaware of doing exactly what Stalin wanted him to do.

Similar fools were leaders of the Western World - who trusted Stalin and didn't condemn his actions.

As the result they had to face the Cold War after the end of WW2.
 
So actually this movie is very On-Topic in this thread.

It explains that Nazi Germany was doomed during WW2 since the very beginning.

Everything was planned by Stalin in advance.

Maybe there was some point when he "slipped on soap" (Summer of 1941), but apart from that Stalin's plan went on pretty smoothly.

Maybe he didn't expect that Germany would became THAT powerful thanks to his support and that's why he "slipped on soap" at some moment.

Possibly another minor Stalin's failure was that he had to leave France and West Germany to be liberated by Capitalists.
 
See it, see it.

In Part 5 of that video civilians (inhabitants of Brest-Litovsk) also say how "good" it was under Soviet occupation (1939 - 1941) compared to what you called "Polish occupation" (1921 - 1939). There is one Belarussian among those witnesses (he speaks Polish in the video but he has a clear Belarussian accent so I presume he is Belarussian). He says the same as Poles.

There was suddenly shortage of food (even such basic food like bread) under Soviet rule. It started suddenly just after the Red Army came ("shops were emptied very quickly" and "we had to stay in queues for many hours for a piece of bread" - that's what the old woman says).

Another man (in 1939 just a small boy) says how entire families of Poles were deported in a matter of days.

They also deported kids. When he came to school the next Monday half of his class was empty...

Soviets organized an absurd lecture for local inhabitants explaining what sugar is (that's what Communist propaganda told them about Poland - that in Poland there was bigger poverty than in the USSR, which was not true). The old woman says that she only laughed at this. :)

That is your "liberation".

Are these those same old Polish women who swear that they were only ever able to eat dog food, despite the lack of existence of food specifically for dogs?
 
Sounds like you've just watched some Polish nationalist propaganda movies.
You really don't want to start political discussion as you claimed?
Or maybe I should start posting links to Russian documentaries about Polish "liberation" of Belorussia and Ukraine in 1920 and about their crimes against Soviet POWs?

Is this Polish nationalist propaganda too?


Link to video.
 
Hitler appears as a fool and Stalin's unaware puppet - Stalin simply made Hitler do what he wanted him to do.

Except for the whole backstab bit.
 
In reality both were convinced they'd played the other. Stalin then made a fatal mistake when he convinced himself that Hitler wouldn't be so stupid to attack until 1942/43 when he'd finished Britain. He ignored the reports of his own intelligence services, he believed the British were lying to him to drag him into the war, and so on and so forth.

If only someone in the Red Army had the guts to just storm Kremlin, arrest, torture, and shoot Stalin, Beria, Molotov, and the rest of those *** when it became apparent that their incompetence was dooming the USSR to defeat. Without Stalin, the Soviet casualties could have been much lower than they ended up being.
 
USSR was preparing for war. Actually they fought a few before the German invasion(Khalkhyn Gol, Finland, ocupattion of the baltic states, the inavsion of Poland). Soviet union had the biggest tank force in the world, actually bigger than the combined tank forces of all other nations(at least in number) and a bulk of the Red army was stationed in the western part of the country.
 
Is this Polish nationalist propaganda too?
This is a description of Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, a big success of Soviet pre-war diplomacy and an action which allowed to save millions of my compatriots. Including my grandparents. Why should it be Polish propaganda?

He ignored the reports of his own intelligence services, he believed the British were lying to him to drag him into the war, and so on and so forth.
Also he ordered to mobilize additional 800.000 people in May 1941, and moved them to the Western districts of the USSR. Just for fun, he didn't believe Germans will attack.
 
This is a description of Molotov-Ribbentrop pact, a big success of Soviet pre-war diplomacy and an action which allowed to save millions of my compatriots. Including my grandparents. Why should it be Polish propaganda?

Did you watch the whole episode? It shows how the Soviets behaved in the parts of Poland they conquered in collusion with the Nazis. I struggle to see how it was any different from what the Germans were doing in "their" half of the country.

That's why I am asking if you consider every source that proves that the Soviets were pretty brutal as "polish nationalist propaganda".

And if you're defending the M-R pact, you're no better than a Holocaust denier. It's totally disgusting.

Also he ordered to mobilize additional 800.000 people in May 1941, and moved them to the Western districts of the USSR. Just for fun, he didn't believe Germans will attack.

Oh please. If he thought the Germans would attack, he would authorize real preparations for an imminent attack He did nothing of that sort - simply sending more troops to the Western regions was just a gesture, Stalin believed that Hitler's troop movements were also just a part of his political manoeuvring.

When the attack actually occurred, Stalin was completely paralysed for days, which in itself proves that he was caught off guard.
 
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