From what point was Germany doomed during WWII?

[Tahuti]

I think the Germans lost the ability to win on 22 June 1941. They lost the war when they failed to knock the Soviets out in the winter of 1941. Hindsight says they should have sat on western Europe until Britain settled for a German peace.

Say, if Germany would have taken Moscow, do you think the Soviets would've surrendered?

 

[Tee Kay]

I think you also need Leningrad, Stalingrad and Baku, and either Sverdlovsk or Vladivostok (if Japan is in the Axis).

...

Seriously now, probably not. The CPSU and the government has already been evacuated to Kuybyshev. It would be a great blow to morale and might encourage restless minorities and dissidents, but the USSR would still be able to keep on fighting. Though it also depends a lot on the fate and decision of Stalin, who was still in Moscow at the time.

 

[Louis XXIV]

Yeah, if Stalin got out, the war would continue. It's possible it would continue without him, but the cult of personality with him is so strong that it's sometimes difficult to figure out how much the government could exist without his say during that time. The biggest advantage for the Nazis if they took Moscow I believe had to do with access to trains, but I'm a bit fuzzy on the details.

 

[Tee Kay]

Yeah, if Stalin got out, the war would continue. It's possible it would continue without him, but the cult of personality with him is so strong that it's sometimes difficult to figure out how much the government could exist without his say during that time. The biggest advantage for the Nazis if they took Moscow I believe had to do with access to trains, but I'm a bit fuzzy on the details.

Moscow's kinda like the center of the Soviet transport network. Take Moscow, and you control the main junction of roads and rails to all parts of the Soviet Union. Particularly important as transport infrastructure in most areas of the Soviet Union was rather poor.

 

[Tahuti]

Yeah, if Stalin got out, the war would continue. It's possible it would continue without him, but the cult of personality with him is so strong.

I think Stalin seriously would have the risk of falling out of favour among the Soviet elites, had he ever made peace with Germany. I already imagine how the Russian SFSR would secede from the USSR to continue the fight against Germany.

 

[Karalysia]

....................................

 

[LightSpectra]

What Soviet elites? Almost 70% of the Communist Party and most of the Red Army officers had already been purged by Stalin at that point.

This. When it is said that Stalin had absolute control over the Soviet Union, that's not an analogy. He could literally do almost anything he wanted.

 

[GamezRule]

Operation Barbarossa

Had Germany kept the focus on Egypt and occupied the Suez Canal, and then pushed for peace at the end of the Battle of Britain, they easily could have gotten it. Then they could reinforce their position. They were perceived a lot stronger then they really were.

 

[LightSpectra]

What does "keeping the focus" mean? Was there a limited amount of officers on the General Staff, so each additional operation means the other ones are executed worse? Do you mean that not enough supplies and troops were deployed on the North African front? Because that was severely limited by ULTRA, plus the Allies' control over the Mediterranean, as well as the basic limitations of supply lines.

 

[ParkCungHee]

And, you know, the desert.

 

[Tahuti]

This. When it is said that Stalin had absolute control over the Soviet Union, that's not an analogy. He could literally do almost anything he wanted.

Well, it did not stop Nikita Krushev from embarking on the de-Stalinisation. So the Great Purge wasn't THAT watertight.

 

[LightSpectra]

Well, it did not stop Nikita Krushev from embarking on the de-Stalinisation. So the Great Purge wasn't THAT watertight.

The interesting thing about destalinization is that it didn't happen until after Stalin died.

 

[Tahuti]

The interesting thing about destalinization is that it didn't happen until after Stalin died.

That's right, but it doesn't explain why someone who supported destalinisation would survive Stalin's purges and even gain power after Stalin's death, does it?

 

[Cutlass]

They saw the writing on the wall and kept their head down. You can hide an awful lot by keeping your mouth shut.

 

[Tahuti]

Indeed. The point I wanted to make was that Stalin throughout his rule certainly faced opposition albeit clandestinely. After all, Stalin did ingest Rat poison shortly before his death, so it's plausible he might have been murdered.

 

[Karalysia]

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[jlvfr]

Battle of Britain.

Yeah, said it, and will keep saying

 

[Tahuti]

Thank you for this informative reply, Karalysia.

Still, you say the Police State was a Stalinist iniative? This practically started from the very beginning of the USSR; the only thing Stalin did was to expand them.
For instance, Lenin oversaw the foundation of the Cheka (a percusor to the NKVD).

The repressions carried out under Lenin's rule led to the deaths of at least 4 million. So to say the Police State was Stalinist in origin is inaccurate to say the least.

 

[Karalysia]

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[kdalibor]

One thing I don't understand. Why Germans didn't knocked out British radar installations? Big structures, that will be hard to miss and that would surely give them some benefit at least at south of the island.