From what point was Germany doomed during WWII?

[xchen08]

As Dachs wrote, since 3rd May Constitution of 1791 the previous division for "The Crown of the Kingdom Poland" and "The Grand Duchy of Lithuania" was abolished. Poland became a unitary state in 1791.

That would be Poland Lithuania became a unitary state in 1791. Funny isn't it, that that just slips away so easily between thoughts.

The point is this. Poland has no historical claim to territory east of the Curzon line greater than Russia, or Lithuania. It has no legal claim greater than Russia, since as mentioned, the partitions were every bit as legal as the administrative changes within the Commonwealth that reallocated the Ukraine from the GDL to the Polish Crown. And it has no national claim greater than the other nationalities that resided in those lands alongside the Poles.

As a state, post WWI Poland was founded on the principle of national self-determination (in particular, Polish nationalism, which makes it a rather poor claimant on being the legitimate sole successor of the Polish Lithuanian Commonwealth) which makes the third the most relevant. As such, the Curzon line, or some approximation thereof, being the closest thing to a national boundary, is also arguably the most legitimate place to put the state border.

This is not to say Polish expansion east of the line is wrong, or that it rightfully belongs to the Soviets, or anyone else. But can we please skip any arguments based on Poland somehow having some sort of special, uniquely moral, claim?

 

[Dachs]

Hear, hear

 

[Domen]

You are seriously claiming that the situation with obsolete equipment, logistics, level of training, etc. was any better in 1939? The message which you were quoting was about level of preparation of the Red Army to repel German aggression, not claiming that it has worsened since 1939.

I am claiming that in 1939 this situation was not any worse. If it was any better - that's arguable.

Russia was experiencing not only foreign military intervention from several countries, but also civil war.

But Poland did not invade Russia or whatever you call it in 1920.

I already told you those lands were under German control. There were also Ukrainians there.

Soviets on the other hand advanced to the west. And Soviet forces attacked first - not Polish.

The first clash between Poles and Soviets was in February of 1919:

http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wojna_polsko-bolszewicka#Moment_konfrontacji

MOMENT OF CONFRONTATION:

The war started on 14 February of 1919 near the town Mosty in Belarus when Polish units protruding beyond the withdrawing German units (for example Grodno was still in German hands) halted further march to the west of units of the Western Front of the Red Army which were conducting operation "Target: Vistula" (...)

Read more about the Soviet Operation "Target: Vistula" of 1918 - 1919:

http://www.google.pl/search?q=opera...&rls=org.mozilla:pl:official&client=firefox-a

For example here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_westward_offensive_of_1918–1919

Or here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish–Soviet_War_in_1919

Or here:

http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showthread.php?185980-Origins-of-Polish-Soviet-war-1919-1920

As such, the Curzon line, or some approximation thereof, being the closest thing to a national boundary, is also arguably the most legitimate place to put the state border.

The original Curzon Line from 1919 (with Lviv and Grodno in Polish hands) of course is:

But can we please skip any arguments based on Poland somehow having some sort of special, uniquely moral, claim?

Did I ever use such argumention? Don't remember.

All I was trying to explain was that Bolsheviks invaded Poland - not inversely.

The first clash between Polish and Soviet forces was in February of 1919 - Soviets were attacking.

The Polish counteroffensive - a response for the Soviet operation "Target: Vistula" - started in March.

 

[Domen]

Was Germany ready for a war against the Soviet Union in 1939?

The answer is: most probably no.

 

[red_elk]

http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wojna_polsko-bolszewicka#Moment_konfrontacji

MOMENT OF CONFRONTATION:

The war started on 14 February of 1919 near the town Mosty in Belarus when Polish units protruding beyond the withdrawing German units (for example Grodno was still in German hands) halted further march to the west of units of the Western Front of the Red Army which were conducting operation "Target: Vistula" (...)

Can you explain what Polish units were doing in Belorussia, when they were so treacherously attacked by the Russians?
The fact that some parts of Russian territory were under control of Germans, or even not controlled by anybody at all is rather weak explanation. It doesn't mean that anybody who wants to claim them, has right to do it.

 

[Domen]

Can you explain what Polish units were doing in Belorussia

Well - certainly not fighting against the Bolsheviks before they approached that area.

Mosty (Belarus) is located very close to the present Polish border and 50 km from Grodno, which was a predominantly Polish city and which was located on the WESTERN side of the original Curzon Line:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Masty,_Belarus

So Polish forces were not really in Belarus, rather in the "borderland" (remember that there were no exact borders). BTW - I have to check this yet but it seems that Mosty is located on the "Polish side" of the original Curzon Line from 1919 - just like Grodno is.

The fact that some parts of Russian territory were under control of Germans, or even not controlled by anybody at all is rather weak explanation.

The Treaty of Brest-Litovsk of 1918 granted this territory to Germany.

You claimed that partitions of Poland were legal.

So why you do not recognize the legality of the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk?

That was NO LONGER part of Russian territory - Russia ceded it to Germany in 1918.

It doesn't mean that anybody who wants to claim them, has right to do it.

Well, since Brest-Litovsk of 1918, that was German territory. And Germany lost the war.

And "all the vultures grab pieces of carrion", so everyone was grabbing German land.

===============================

I suggest we get back on topic.

 

[red_elk]

BTW - I have to check this yet but it seems that Mosty is located on the "Polish side" of the original Curzon Line from 1919 - just like Grodno is.

No need to bother - if the only source of your claim that "Bolsheviks started first" is from Polish wikipedia.

The Treaty of Brest-Litovsk of 1918 granted this territory to Germany.

It was cancelled in the same year.

You claimed that partitions of Poland were legal.

I didn't.

 

[Domen]

if the only source of your claim that "Bolsheviks started first" is from Polish wikipedia.

So Russian and so patronizing... You could better write: "its Polish = its garbage" - the same meaning.

It sounds like an argument of a 5-years old child (or a typical Russian forum member in discussion with Poles).

Can you at least explain which wikipedia is better than Polish and why?

BTW - I also posted three more sources in English but you didn't bother to take a look...

 

[Karalysia]

...............

 

[Domen]

I'm not a nationalist. I talk about facts. He is certainly not a nationalist too.

And we don't use nationalist argumentation (like: "Poland had right", "Russia was justified", etc.) anywhere.

BTW - any wikipedia is not the best source of information (although it is very easily accessible).

Obviously Russian wikipedia claims the opposite. But is it better than Polish wikipedia?

Anyway - I posted several sources, not just wiki.

You claimed that partitions of Poland were legal.

I didn't.

Sorry it wasn't you but another user.

=====================================

BTW:

About the non-aggression pact:
- The fact that the Germans were put a few hundred kilometers further away from Moscow was achievement of Soviet diplomacy. Was it used well by military or not is a separate question.
- In Summer 1939 there was still possibility of alliance between Germany, Britain and France, which would be a very big problem for the USSR. If not alliance, anyway, France and Britain did everything to turn Germans to the East - that the main reason why they did not attack Germany in September 1939 and later. They wouldn't do it either way, no matter if Poland would be able to hold on for a few weeks more. Signing pact temporarily turned German aggression to the West which was entirely in Soviet interests.

These are good points.

But it must be added that the Ribbentrop-Molotov pact was also a great achievement of German diplomacy because it allowed Hitler to conduct his invasion against Poland, which without the pact with Soviet Union would take longer and would be much more risky - if not impossible - to conduct, as i explained earlier.

The Soviet Union was also the main deliverer of important resources to Germany, resources that Germany was deprived of and that Germany needed to carry out its military campaigns of 1939 - 1941.

 

[red_elk]

Obviously Russian wikipedia claims the opposite. But is it better than Polish wikipedia?

The Russian one says something about 1st_Lithuanian-Belarusian_Division, part of Polish army, which was operating in Minsk and Vilnius in December 1918-January 1919. Probably lies.

 

[ParkCungHee]

Can't you guys just go back to shooting each other?

 

[Domen]

Well, maybe it is not lying.

I forgot about the defense of Vilnius against the attacking Red Army in 1919 (the link says January, one month before Mosty). I'm not sure if this date (January) is correct though. I didn't hear about Minsk before. The link you posted says that Poles and Belarusians resisted together against the Soviets:

The initial core of the future division was formed in December 1918 in Minsk, where a group of roughly 1500 Poles and Belarusians rose to arms to defend the city against the advancing forces of Soviet Russia [2]. However, due to Russian numerical superiority and lack of support from the side of the short-lived Belarusian National Republic, the group withdrew towards central Poland. Other such self-defence groups, resistance organizations and veterans of the Green Army of the Russian Civil War also reached Poland, where they were reformed into a single unit under the command of general Władysław Wejtko.

Another large group of volunteers to join the division were the remnants of roughly 2,500 men strong force created in Vilnius to defend it against the Reds in January 1919. In the effect of four day long fights for the city and the area of Nowa Wilejka, the Polish forces were pushed back and the city had to be abandoned.[2] The newly-formed division took part in the Battle of Brześć Litewski of January 8 of that year, one of the first battles of the Polish–Soviet War.

It wasn't the Polish Army though, but local Self-Defence formed by locals, which was only later incorporated to the structures of the Polish army:

BTW - Brześć Litewski (Brest-Litovsk) is located at the Bug river - so at the present border of Poland.

So it appears from this article that the Red Army was already just at the Curzon Line in January of 1919 !!! (?)

Starting in the last years of the First World War, many smaller units of self-defence forces were created out of local volunteers in those areas, among them likely the best known being the Lithuanian and Belarusian Self-Defence ('Samoobrona Litwy i Białorusi'). Self-Defence units were organized in the areas of the Kresy region with Polish majorities or significant minorities – usually urbanized areas like the cities of Vilnius, Minsk, Hrodna, Lida and Kaunas, or towns like Ašmiany, Wilejka, Nemenčinė, Świr and Panevėžys; until December 1918 those units had no central command or organization and many of them were named after the local cities or regions (like 'Samoobrona Lidy'). The first task of those units was curbing the crime wave by German deserters, and later, defence from the pro-Bolshevik groups.

So the Mosty clash in February was probably the 1st battle fought by Soviets against the actual Polish Army - not paramilitary groups like self-defence.

 

[red_elk]

These are good points.

Great, it means now we are almost on the same page here. Except my point about USSR using the time period between 1939-1941 for large military buildup. Which is actually the most obvious part of my statement.

But it must be added that the Ribbentrop-Molotov pact was also a great achievement of German diplomacy because it allowed Hitler to conduct his invasion against Poland, which without the pact with Soviet Union would take longer and would be much more risky - if not impossible - to conduct, as i explained earlier.

It's hard to expect that Germany will sign pact which is not beneficial for them. If countries voluntary sign some agreement, they usually consider it as beneficial for them - like it was for example with Munich agreement. I can assure you, if Molotov could force Ribbentrop to sign a pact which was not beneficial for Germany, he would be happy to do it.

It wasn't the Polish Army though, but local Self-Defence formed by locals, which was only later incorporated to the structures of the Polish army

Yes, they were so-called self-defence units. Under command of major-general of Polish army, receiving orders from Polish government, and later, officially incorporated into Polish Army (as 1st Lithuanian–Belarusian Division, which also operated in Belorussian territory in January, 1919)

Sounds like Bolsheviks were trying to drive off Polish forces from some Belorussian and Lithuanian regions in December 1918-January 1919. Wilnius and Brest-Litovsk battles are good examples.

 

[Domen]

Under command of major-general of Polish army, receiving orders from Polish government

He did not serve in the Polish Army before 8 December of 1919:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Władysław_Wejtko

On the other hand, he served in the Imperial Russian Army (no surprise he didn't like Bolsheviks) and then in the Polish I Corps in Russia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_1st_Corps_in_Russia

Sounds like Bolsheviks were trying to drive off Polish forces from some Belorussian and Lithuanian regions in December 1918-January 1919.

You "forgot" the part of the article which says that they were also trying to drive off German forces of the German Ober Ost from that area... :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ober-Ost

Polish self-defence was only cooperating with mentioned German forces in combats against the attacking Bolsheviks.

(...) In practice it refers not only to said commander, but also to his governing military staff and the district they controlled - Ober Ost was in command of the Eastern front. After the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk it controlled Lithuania, Latvia, Estonia, Belarus, parts of Poland, and Courland: former territories of the Russian Empire. The land it controlled was around 108,808 km². (...)

 

[Karalysia]

.....................

 

[Domen]

Yes indeed, because the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk had granted these areas to Germany.

And German Ober-Ost forces were still in control of these areas in late 1918 / 1919, even though were already withdrawing (under Bolshevik pressure).

Except my point about USSR using the time period between 1939-1941 for large military buildup. Which is actually the most obvious part of my statement.

It is also obvious that at least equally large military buildup was taking place in the USSR yet between ca. 1931 / 1932 and 1939.

Just to mention the number of AFVs in armored units of the Red Army (numbers for 1 January of each year):

Year (1 January) - number of tanks + number of armored cars in armored units:

1923 - ca. 80 tanks + ca. 300 armored cars (and over 120 armored trains)
......
......
......
......
1928 - 92 + 7
......
......
......
1932 - 1401 + 213
1933 - 4906 + 244
1934 - 7574 + 326
1935 - 10180 + 464
1936 - 13339 + 1033
1937 - 17280 + 1428
1938 - 18834 + 1801
1939 - 21100 + 2594
1940 - 23364 + 4034

I also have data on production of different models of tanks & armored cars in the USSR in each year if you want.

Sounds like Bolsheviks were trying to drive off Polish forces from some Belorussian and Lithuanian regions

So Lithuania (BTW - for example Vilnius had Polish and Jewish majority in 1919) also needed Bolshevik "liberation"?

Later Soviets were also trying to drive off Polish forces from "some" Polish regions.

Operation "Target: Vistula" was named so for a good reason, after all.

 

[red_elk]

He did not serve in the Polish Army before 8 December of 1919

Small correction: before 8 December of 1918.
And what happened to commander of Polish self-defence units in Belorussia in 8 December of 1918?

You "forgot" the part of the article which says that they were also trying to drive off German forces of the German Ober Ost from that area... :

So what? How it is relevant?

Yes indeed, because the Treaty of Brest-Litovsk had granted these areas to Germany.

Brest-Litovsk treaty, again, was renounced in 1918.

It is also obvious that at least equally large military buildup was taking place in the USSR between ca. 1930 and 1939.

Never claimed the opposite. USSR was preparing for war before 1939 too.

 

[Domen]

Never claimed the opposite. USSR was preparing for war before 1939 too.

In 1931 and 1932 Germany was not yet under Nazi rule. So question is: against whom they were preparing to war?

Brest-Litovsk treaty, again, was renounced in 1918.

Source?

Seems that German Ober Ost forces didn't want to abandon it anyway.

BTW - the treaty was signed with Russian Empire (not with the Bolsheviks), so if it was renounced with anyone - it would be Russian Empire.

Maybe that's why Bolsheviks were not welcomed in those territories by both Germans and locals.

Russian revolutionists were not recognized by international community at that time (the best evidence for this is the fact that all leading powers - including countries which won WW1 - fought against them from 1918 to 1922). So they didn't have any internationally recognized legal rights to any territory.

If anyone could legally be the owner of that territory in 1919 / 1920 - it certainly would not be Bolsheviks, but "the Whites".

 

[red_elk]

Source?

Seems that German Ober Ost forces didn't want to abandon it anyway.

BTW - the treaty was signed with Russian Empire (not with the Bolsheviks), so if it was renounced with anyone - it would be Russian Empire.

I'll wait until you read about it and edit your message.