G&H's Kingdom of Scotland for Vox Populi

Hinin

Emperor
Joined
Aug 1, 2014
Messages
1,230
Location
Right behind you
Had to restart since the new version of Vox (1.0.0) was not savegame compatible with my previous game and it kept crashing on load. Anyway it made me note something that I had not really paid attention to before.
How come the Dun doesn't give a yield to quarries and plantations? It can be built on them but gives nothing to them. It's a bit odd and seems like somewhat of an oversight. Not sure about or if there are many scottish plantations of some kind but there ought to be a fair amount of quarries etc. Perhaps add quarries to the mine (+1 culture) yield and the plantation to the farms (+1 prod)? Might be reasonable. OK it doesn't give anything specific to sea resources either (except possible the +1 food due to water).

It's totally intended. Contrary to its big brother the Celtic Oppidum from 4UC, the Dun Cinneadh isn't meant to improve every type of improvement adjacent to it : only those which aren't resource-specific (so not the camps, quarries, plantations and oil wells). You place your UI on a resource tile, and improve non-resource improvements around.

The fact that there are resources for mines and farms is unfortunate, but that's only a minor setback. Also, don't forget the UI gives food to adjacent water tiles (lakes and coasts).

If you want something that improves everything, which supposes more rarity to keep things balanced, then the Oppidum is for you. The Dun Cinneadh is far more spammable, but weaker is key aspects and does have the claiming part of the UI that is completely unique to it.
 

looorg

King
Joined
Dec 22, 2010
Messages
677
It's totally intended. Contrary to its big brother the Celtic Oppidum from 4UC, the Dun Cinneadh isn't meant to improve every type of improvement adjacent to it : only those which aren't resource-specific (so not the camps, quarries, plantations and oil wells). You place your UI on a resource tile, and improve non-resource improvements around.

The fact that there are resources for mines and farms is unfortunate, but that's only a minor setback. Also, don't forget the UI gives food to adjacent water tiles (lakes and coasts).

If you want something that improves everything, which supposes more rarity to keep things balanced, then the Oppidum is for you. The Dun Cinneadh is far more spammable, but weaker is key aspects and does have the claiming part of the UI that is completely unique to it.

I'm less certain the Dun is the smaller cousin of the Oppidum. It's somewhat the much smaller, worse and very distant cousin perhaps. In some regard it's more like the Dun is the reverse Hacienda. After all they have similar build capabilities as they don't require a great person to actually build, can't be built next to each other but instead of improving the tile itself very much it improves some of the surroundings.


"You place your UI on a resource tile, and improve non-resource improvements around."

Technically tho you improve tiles with resources around it to if they just happen have the normal building on it and that building just doesn't happen to be a quarry or a plantation. If it as an example has a mine with gold/iron/silver or salt that gets improved with one extra culture. So it does improve all around but just not those two building types, quarries and plantation. Nor does it as I mentioned specifically improve sea resources, except as giving a +1 food buff to water which would be all of them unless it's in the ocean (which it rarely if ever should be). It should even improve oil in that regard if it's just lake or coast oil as it's still then water. It doesn't improve city centers nor great person improvements.

Oppidum requires a general/merchant/scientist/engineer to build (so you are losing a citadel, town, academy and manufactury by building it, ok not so much losing since the Oppidum are all those things in one to a limited extent). The defense bonus is double (100%). It improves all tiles around it with double the the yields, +2 of some combo compared to +1. Except it doesn't improve city centers and other great person buildings or villages (this has always been a bit odd, but then I guess the Oppi is supposed to be like a fortified village), oil and just general water tiles (must be a fishing boat). They also increase the hurry yield of all hurrying of their great person types.

Hacienda. Creates a super tile based on the surrounding resources (and city center but not other great person infrastructure). It gains nothing if it's not a resource in the tiles and it does nothing for the tiles around it. It's also a +2 per resource compared to the +1 of the Dun. It offers no defense bonus at all. But in some regard it might be a better comparison then the Oppidum.


If it's so to keep it with some kind of Scottish theme (whatever that would be) there might be other things that can be swapped in for the Quarries, cause there are a fair amount of those in Scotland. As opposed to say I'm fairly sure there are no logging camps in Scotland as there is no jungle. But logging camps still get a bonus (+1 gold). Sheep pastures should probably be more of a bonus yields then just regular farm land. Except then pastures went out as it's on a resource but at the same time you are giving the bonus to other tiles as long as it's mining or water resources so it's not really consistent in that regard, this whole idea of improve one resource tile to improve adjacent non-resource tiles.

Question somehow remains as to why Quarries and Plantations doesn't do anything why other things do. In some regard I noted it cause I got a very heavy quarry (lapis, marble and stone) start and realized that this does squat for me, it's almost like building a fort except I can in a few rare occasions in the start of the game build it adjacent to my border. The tile claiming also fairly quickly goes away as a bonus as borders grow and you can't use it to steal land from others (unlike America).

So it makes little sense that the Dun doesn't improve all then if you see it as the smaller Oppi, as that improve all things with +2 instead of just +1.

Was there some design idea that resource tiles are never adjacent to each other? Cause they are. All the time. If the belief was that resources somehow are not adjacent then in theory this works as intended or described. But in reality it becomes weird as resource tiles are often found next to each other. Even on normal or sparse settings it's fairly common, I have not even tried this with more bountiful resources. Which I guess would make the Dun even worse of a building.
 

Hinin

Emperor
Joined
Aug 1, 2014
Messages
1,230
Location
Right behind you
I'm less certain the Dun is the smaller cousin of the Oppidum. It's somewhat the much smaller, worse and very distant cousin perhaps. In some regard it's more like the Dun is the reverse Hacienda. After all they have similar build capabilities as they don't require a great person to actually build, can't be built next to each other but instead of improving the tile itself very much it improves some of the surroundings.


"You place your UI on a resource tile, and improve non-resource improvements around."

Technically tho you improve tiles with resources around it to if they just happen have the normal building on it and that building just doesn't happen to be a quarry or a plantation. If it as an example has a mine with gold/iron/silver or salt that gets improved with one extra culture. So it does improve all around but just not those two building types, quarries and plantation. Nor does it as I mentioned specifically improve sea resources, except as giving a +1 food buff to water which would be all of them unless it's in the ocean (which it rarely if ever should be). It should even improve oil in that regard if it's just lake or coast oil as it's still then water. It doesn't improve city centers nor great person improvements.

Oppidum requires a general/merchant/scientist/engineer to build (so you are losing a citadel, town, academy and manufactury by building it, ok not so much losing since the Oppidum are all those things in one to a limited extent). The defense bonus is double (100%). It improves all tiles around it with double the the yields, +2 of some combo compared to +1. Except it doesn't improve city centers and other great person buildings or villages (this has always been a bit odd, but then I guess the Oppi is supposed to be like a fortified village), oil and just general water tiles (must be a fishing boat). They also increase the hurry yield of all hurrying of their great person types.

Hacienda. Creates a super tile based on the surrounding resources (and city center but not other great person infrastructure). It gains nothing if it's not a resource in the tiles and it does nothing for the tiles around it. It's also a +2 per resource compared to the +1 of the Dun. It offers no defense bonus at all. But in some regard it might be a better comparison then the Oppidum.


If it's so to keep it with some kind of Scottish theme (whatever that would be) there might be other things that can be swapped in for the Quarries, cause there are a fair amount of those in Scotland. As opposed to say I'm fairly sure there are no logging camps in Scotland as there is no jungle. But logging camps still get a bonus (+1 gold). Sheep pastures should probably be more of a bonus yields then just regular farm land. Except then pastures went out as it's on a resource but at the same time you are giving the bonus to other tiles as long as it's mining or water resources so it's not really consistent in that regard, this whole idea of improve one resource tile to improve adjacent non-resource tiles.

Question somehow remains as to why Quarries and Plantations doesn't do anything why other things do. In some regard I noted it cause I got a very heavy quarry (lapis, marble and stone) start and realized that this does squat for me, it's almost like building a fort except I can in a few rare occasions in the start of the game build it adjacent to my border. The tile claiming also fairly quickly goes away as a bonus as borders grow and you can't use it to steal land from others (unlike America).

So it makes little sense that the Dun doesn't improve all then if you see it as the smaller Oppi, as that improve all things with +2 instead of just +1.

Was there some design idea that resource tiles are never adjacent to each other? Cause they are. All the time. If the belief was that resources somehow are not adjacent then in theory this works as intended or described. But in reality it becomes weird as resource tiles are often found next to each other. Even on normal or sparse settings it's fairly common, I have not even tried this with more bountiful resources. Which I guess would make the Dun even worse of a building.

I'll think about maybe make it so that the Dun improves adjacent GPTIs a bit, but I won't go further. If you have a quarry or plantation heavy start, you can simply put your UI on it for some, and use GPTIs for the others when needed. The goal of the UI isn't to boost up your entire economy, but to make it more stable and reliable : make basic improvements more relevant, not make resource improvements even better. That is the whole reason why the UI was designed to be placed on resources in the first place.

The UA dummy building can get destroyed because of events.

The dummy buildings of the mod aren't any different than those of other modded civs. The problem either comes from the event system itself or there is something that I'm not aware of.

The way dummy buildings work in general is a bit unreliable : during our tests, we had to stop using them for "first time conquest" bonuses because they would be removed during conquest even though they were coded to not disappear on capture. I don't know if @gwennog talked about it already.
 
Last edited:

gwennog

King
Joined
May 31, 2015
Messages
600
Location
France
The UA dummy building can get destroyed because of events.
The dummy buildings of the mod aren't any different than those of other modded civs. The problem either comes from the event system itself or there is something that I'm not aware of.

The way dummy buildings work in general is a bit unreliable : during our tests, we had to stop using them for "first time conquest" bonuses because they would be removed during conquest even though they were coded to not disappear on capture. I don't know if @gwennog talked about it already.
@black213, could you give me an example ?
I have not yet posted on github the issues that we have encountered. I am always cautious because it is difficult to be sure. If you have something that once again attests to what we have seen, it is interesting.
 

Hinin

Emperor
Joined
Aug 1, 2014
Messages
1,230
Location
Right behind you

Solic

Warlord
Joined
Jul 20, 2020
Messages
186
I really liked playing as this civ! The music is epic and the mechanic is cool. I mainly utilized it by freeing my own cities that I was now slightly more willing to let them be captured. I also first weakened an enemy civ together with another warmonger, then vasalling them and turning on that warmonger and freeing my vassal's cities. I'd say the weakest part of the kit is the boat, since being able to retreat isn't such a great bonus when you have only have 1 tile length of coast to move around without deep coast, but the rest felt strong enough. The unique improvement felt really outclassed by a jungle start with a plantation pantheon too unfortunately.
 

Hinin

Emperor
Joined
Aug 1, 2014
Messages
1,230
Location
Right behind you
The music is epic

Suprisingly, the Peace Theme must be the most non-Scottish element of the mod, since the group playing and the singer are Italians (so a purist would quickly find her accent not adequate). That said, I really love what they've done, and this version of Fear a Bhata is to me the best present on youtube.

I mainly utilized it by freeing my own cities that I was now slightly more willing to let them be captured.

One of the goals for this civ was to provide a kit that allows a player on the backfoot to come back from the brink : the UA is one of the most conditionnal I know, but the rest of the kit is here to stabilize the gameplan (with meat-and-potatoe UUs and a very versatile UI).

I personally dislike the idea of deliberately putting your cities in harms way to then liberate them and rip the benefits, but I decided to let players be free to decide on that front.

I'd say the weakest part of the kit is the boat, since being able to retreat isn't such a great bonus when you have only have 1 tile length of coast to move around without deep coast, but the rest felt strong enough.

The free Supply + early unlock + no malus against land units are the main selling points of the Birlinn during the Medieval Era. Island Raider becomes much more useful later into the game, when you have a lot of ships and water tiles to navigate, and so being able to ignore ZOCs and withdraw can be crucial to preserve your units. It isn't meant to constitute your main force, to be frank (but Milae would disagree), but to support your land units on distant shores (so that you can reach cities to liberate more easily). Well, at least that's how I saw the design when thinking about it, but feel free to explore the possibilities. :D

The unique improvement felt really outclassed by a jungle start with a plantation pantheon too unfortunately.

I consider that more a product of how difficult jungle starts are currently. There have been discussions on the subject for a while now, and I hope some kind of buff will allow other civs than the Aztecs, Mayas and Brazil to do well there.
 

Hinin

Emperor
Joined
Aug 1, 2014
Messages
1,230
Location
Right behind you
V. 11 online :
  • Decreased Bhonnaich's HP bonus to +15
  • Fixed errors in the GameText
  • Fixed an error in the Diplomacy GameText
 

gwennog

King
Joined
May 31, 2015
Messages
600
Location
France
Top Bottom