alex994
Hail Divine Emperor!
Chinese culture has lasted the ages of time eternal 
How is that a ridiculous lifespan for my countries? 
How is that a ridiculous lifespan for my countries? 
Game Preference Poll
- Thread starter Birdjaguar
- Start date
There will be tech advances and at the moment I plan on developing three versions (or a single version that will have chance outcomes) of a tech tree. I expect that it will be secret and players will not know what is possible or how close they are to discovering the next one. I will develop a formula to track each player's progress though. Depending upon exactly how long each turn is, advances will diffuse to neighboring states pretty quickly. War will spread new war tech quickly so a nation's advantage won't last long.
Here is where some things stand:
Sub fora: No
Tech tree: yes, but secret
Cultures: undecided
Cradles: The number will be driven by how many players there are.
Projects: Yes, but results will be decided by mod after it is built. Effects may not be permanent or may be delayed.
Stats: Leaning strongly towards a "black box" model. I am developing a complicated set of stats and interconnections between stats and national economies. All of it will be hidden from players who will see a pretty short (for me) set of stats that reflect their current situation. Players will tell me how they want to spend, and I will apply it into the model and voila! stats are calculated. At the moment I have about 30 "assumptions" for each nation that I will be able to change and those changes will affect stats. For example, if a player wants to spend EP on military infrastructure, I might change the number of units supported by 1 EP of upkeep. Maybe go from 20 to 25. Or maybe a player wants to tax trade, then I would up the base tax rate on trade enough to create an income effect (and maybe others).
As the game moves along each nation will develop its own profile for calculating stats.
I have expanded on the system I used in BirdNES. I will explain the underlying concepts first. They are independent of the posted stats.
I use an Excel spreadsheet to do my stats, so if you are not familar with Excel, it won't make much sense. I will assume you are, but if you aren't just let me know.
First I create a list of important information that I feel needs to be captured in the game's stats. This is one of my working lists for the upcoming game:
Spoiler :
It is a long list. In the cells next to each stat name I will place values for the stat. Now in excel each value can be linked to other values via formulas. So if infrastructure has a value of 0 and a player raises it to 1, I can create any number of effects for that change. It can add (or subtract) to domestic economy; at the same time it can add to upkeep or even increase population. Changes can be of any quantitative nature. An increase in 1 level of infrastructure can change population by 0.1 and at the same time change domestic economy by 0.75 or whatever I choose. I can track partial payments too. I will use the stats to calculate how many ECs, TCs, and RCs and nation has. Every time the trade value crosses some threshold, a new TC is created and then I will put it on the map.
I just have to work through the mathematics of what effects I want. Part of the problem with BirdNES was that the systtem had never been used, so some of the calculations were off. Having real players actually use the system taught me a lot about how to improve things.
I have also figured out how to collect all the stats I want to post together so I can just copy and paste them into the forum complete with any formating. My spreadsheet for BirdNES was over 1700 rows (including dead nations). When I was ready to do stats, I just went down the spreadsheet nation by nation and entered what was bought and the effects of wars. If the orders had all the spending clearly listed, it would take me about 5 minutes per nation. When I was finished, I copied my compiled column and posted it on page 1 with spoiler tags and all.
When I added world trade, things got more complicated. I added another tab and made a big table that had all the VoD and the trade values for each and for each nation. As world trade changed, the new values were automatically linked to each nation's stats. So When I added a TC to somewhere in N America its trade value went up and so did trade stat for every nation that was trading with N America.
The work up front is considerable, but once done, it works like a charm. For this game I am creating ways to make changes easier and to customize each nation. I will have a tab for each nation and link all of them to a trade tab adn to a posting tab.
I hope this helps. let me know if you have any questions.
Don't. I use Excel every day at work and have been using spreadsheets for over...well, let's just leave it at...a long time. I did stats manually when I started BirdNES and it was so painful that I had to find an easier way.
~Darkening~
Weep, Mother.
Alrightie, Rant (v) 2.1:
If calling the Chinese Asian (which they are) is enough to get a death warrent, then why am I still here after the numerous insults given towards your 'hobby' 
?
I think you mistook that section (which I don't blame you for). I never intended that people be the polar opposites of each other- through this could be a tangent of the issue. What I meant is that where the two cultures come into greater contact, there should be a general mixing of the two cultures. However, the farther away from the middle region you go, the more stable and ethnically-unmixed the area would be.
My two cents: I honestly believe multi-threads is a tad extreme. I can understand the use of two threads for PureNES (considering they take place on two different planes), but if time progresses the same for all the cradles, why should it be multi? To make it pretty once again? I'm, in a general sense, against the Sub Foras (now that I pay attention to the background- flip flopper, remember) on the issue that it not only blocks new members from joining, but also that it hampers the experience of the NES. Am I the only one who reads the entire update- not just my own section? If asked, I'd be willing to avoid spoilerized maps, but I'd like to keep tabs on what happens in other regions- even if it serves no IC reason.
I honestly believe that most people will avoid maps that they're not included in- if only for the sake of playing IC. Sure, there are obvious violaters, - but hey, who honestly cares if someone takes a peek? I've taken that its more of the issue of discovering the other cradles early than being secretive, so it shouldn't matter. Bird, if you spot anyone shooting straight at another cradle (or even heading directly in the general region), sucker punch 'em. There are such things as lost voyages, hurricanes, mutinies, storms, dieases, interceptions, giant squid, etc. Punish any person heading after a cradle severly and I can gurantee they will not attempt it again. (There is a difference in shooting for a cradle and generally exploring- in the latter you look all around you, not just one direction).
DON'T BE A PANSY!!!!!!! Honestly, I can understand exceptions being made- but when the same people make the same transgressions time after time, kick them. The single most annoying thing to me about NESes occuring now is the acceptance of late orders and the acceptance of extreme OOC-style. Don't accept late orders for a turn and I can assure you people will think twice before missing them the next time![/rantwithinarant]
My point is that I'll BE the oddball this time. I'm arguing for general acceptance of multi-cultured Cradles, not themed Cradles. There shouldn't be discussions of stiffling creativity. Now, before this is twisted, I can understand some limits- No Jedis or Hobbits, please. But in general terms, there shouldn't be limits on what can be accepted (nor a person responsible for enforcding it).
das, just because you're an uber-mod doesn't mean everyone else gets their kicks from extreme micromanagement. This issue should foremost be left to Bird, as he'll be the poor soul who'll have to tackle the beast. (For the record, I support a single update with three general sections). However, for a response to the above statements, I have centered my answers below:
If calling the Chinese Asian (which they are
) is enough to get a death warrent, then why am I still here after the numerous insults given towards your 'hobby' ?I think you mistook that section (which I don't blame you for). I never intended that people be the polar opposites of each other- through this could be a tangent of the issue. What I meant is that where the two cultures come into greater contact, there should be a general mixing of the two cultures. However, the farther away from the middle region you go, the more stable and ethnically-unmixed the area would be.
My two cents: I honestly believe multi-threads is a tad extreme. I can understand the use of two threads for PureNES (considering they take place on two different planes), but if time progresses the same for all the cradles, why should it be multi? To make it pretty once again? I'm, in a general sense, against the Sub Foras (now that I pay attention to the background
- flip flopper, remember) on the issue that it not only blocks new members from joining, but also that it hampers the experience of the NES. Am I the only one who reads the entire update- not just my own section? If asked, I'd be willing to avoid spoilerized maps, but I'd like to keep tabs on what happens in other regions- even if it serves no IC reason. I honestly believe that most people will avoid maps that they're not included in- if only for the sake of playing IC. Sure, there are obvious violaters, - but hey, who honestly cares if someone takes a peek? I've taken that its more of the issue of discovering the other cradles early than being secretive, so it shouldn't matter. Bird, if you spot anyone shooting straight at another cradle (or even heading directly in the general region), sucker punch 'em. There are such things as lost voyages, hurricanes, mutinies, storms, dieases, interceptions, giant squid, etc. Punish any person heading after a cradle severly and I can gurantee they will not attempt it again. (There is a difference in shooting for a cradle and generally exploring- in the latter you look all around you, not just one direction).
DON'T BE A PANSY!!!!!!! Honestly, I can understand exceptions being made- but when the same people make the same transgressions time after time, kick them. The single most annoying thing to me about NESes occuring now is the acceptance of late orders and the acceptance of extreme OOC-style. Don't accept late orders for a turn and I can assure you people will think twice before missing them the next time![/rantwithinarant]
My point is that I'll BE the oddball this time. I'm arguing for general acceptance of multi-cultured Cradles, not themed Cradles. There shouldn't be discussions of stiffling creativity. Now, before this is twisted, I can understand some limits- No Jedis or Hobbits, please. But in general terms, there shouldn't be limits on what can be accepted (nor a person responsible for enforcding it).
das, just because you're an uber-mod doesn't mean everyone else gets their kicks from extreme micromanagement
. This issue should foremost be left to Bird, as he'll be the poor soul who'll have to tackle the beast. (For the record, I support a single update with three general sections). However, for a response to the above statements, I have centered my answers below:Why? Why in the name of the world would you want to rip off our world over and over?! I don't mean to insult, but please stop associating everything with OTL. I can understand some association, but there must be a limit- we are (or should be) intending to create a new world, not a cheap paradoy of our own. Instead of doing this, do what was first proposed- cut up the Cradle into regions and allow those wishing to take part there to decide what is what. Sure, Bird may take (his) time and put up descriptions of the landscape, but other than mountain ranges, not much will be needed in the beginning- correct me if I'm wrong, but don't fresh starts start out with small regions exposed?
This is what I'm advocating: Bird sets out the Cradle. He gives a (very) limited verbal description of the landscape (such as "great plains exist, grassland is abudent in the south, a desert to the west of the Kash mountains".) Then he does what a Mod should do- shove the work into the player's hands and minimize the absurd amount of work on the Mod. People are give two days (somewhat) to discuss the ancient culture (an equivilant of Indo-Aryan and others), and then pick their region. After this, the groups of players narrow down their culture, and do everything needed (Bird may simply copy and paste what he feels like). In that manner, regions can become very specific, and if needed, someone from each Cradle could draw up an Region map, and with Bird's approval, the canon could be formed.
Thats my point- not everyone enjoys eight hours micromanaging everything .
Would you prefer Jungle-Celts?
I believe we're saying the same thing in two different ways. I am all for leveled relationship. Say, on the first level, there is the archaic Cradle relationship- all beginning in a single Cradle can be traced back to a single starting point, if gone back far enough. Then there is the regional level- this is the greatest difference where religions and cultures divert, and in same areas of culture, ties can be drawn connecting each culture. Finally, you'd have a national level, where the issues diverge for each player.
Not at all- my main issue is that there are talks of penalties for being different. I would prefer if different cultures were prominent in different regions (such as OTL), but there is nothing preventing a Cradle from being a single ethnicity. The only thing I'm set against is penalties against players for being different- this is completely unrealistic. You can not tell me that early kingdoms did not ally with different faiths if it meant the difference in victory and defeat. So there shouldn't be a ganging up against IC-wise, especially if it provides no immediate benefit (there were no bloody crusades/jihads in the 2nd century B.C){as far as I know}.
I am quite aware of this I and I would support a single major-ethnic Cradle. This would be what those two days for- within each Cradle, players would declare which culture group they would prefer; naming three and the one with the majority would become that Cradle's dominant group.
I've taken the same view overall, but I hate when people shout about specific examples in LINES (such as Guangfei) when it was much worse earlier on. In that spirit, I've done alot to relate the Davians to their origional neighbors. In truth, my current concept of 'Davian' couldn't be farther from the first. They were Germanic at first, but over the many turns, they're morhped into semi-Germanic, majority- German/Greek mixtures, with a sprinkling of latin into the culture. I've also related them by the Davians being ethnically a mixture of ancient strands of Valin, Eldranian, Dula-Hathran, and other groups that migrated east (this was actually the original background for Davar).
I'll give an example of what I'm proposing:
After alot of debate, the vote comes in and there is call for an Indo-European Cradle for Cradle #1- thus this Cradle becomes majority-Indo. After this, the map is divided among those people wishing for a Persain style* culture, those wishing for a Greek/Roman culture, and those wishing for a Celtic culture. These regions are mapped, and people are forbidden to create a culture associated with the region outside the mainstay.
After this, we can take a Greek culture onwards. Say that on the map, a region lying between two mountain ranges, a desert, a sea, and an expanse of black will be given a greek name (Lets be cheap and go Hellenes). Within this region, Greek cultures would be dicatated. Players must adopt the Greek panthenon, through they are free to choose a patron god if they wish on a national level. As I said before, nations bordering two regions may take their pick. (NOTE- this is not to say that the cultures can't grow outside their starting positions- if a strong nation takes over swathes of land located in another zone, then the culture of that nation expands along with it.)
*- I am using an OTL example to simply.
This is what I'm advocating: Bird sets out the Cradle. He gives a (very) limited verbal description of the landscape (such as "great plains exist, grassland is abudent in the south, a desert to the west of the Kash mountains".) Then he does what a Mod should do- shove the work into the player's hands and minimize the absurd amount of work on the Mod. People are give two days (somewhat) to discuss the ancient culture (an equivilant of Indo-Aryan and others), and then pick their region. After this, the groups of players narrow down their culture, and do everything needed (Bird may simply copy and paste what he feels like). In that manner, regions can become very specific, and if needed, someone from each Cradle could draw up an Region map, and with Bird's approval, the canon could be formed.
Thats my point
- not everyone enjoys eight hours micromanaging everything .Would you prefer Jungle-Celts
?I believe we're saying the same thing in two different ways
. I am all for leveled relationship. Say, on the first level, there is the archaic Cradle relationship- all beginning in a single Cradle can be traced back to a single starting point, if gone back far enough. Then there is the regional level- this is the greatest difference where religions and cultures divert, and in same areas of culture, ties can be drawn connecting each culture. Finally, you'd have a national level, where the issues diverge for each player.Not at all- my main issue is that there are talks of penalties for being different. I would prefer if different cultures were prominent in different regions (such as OTL), but there is nothing preventing a Cradle from being a single ethnicity. The only thing I'm set against is penalties against players for being different- this is completely unrealistic. You can not tell me that early kingdoms did not ally with different faiths if it meant the difference in victory and defeat. So there shouldn't be a ganging up against IC-wise, especially if it provides no immediate benefit (there were no bloody crusades/jihads in the 2nd century B.C){as far as I know}.
I am quite aware of this I and I would support a single major-ethnic Cradle. This would be what those two days for- within each Cradle, players would declare which culture group they would prefer; naming three and the one with the majority would become that Cradle's dominant group.
I've taken the same view overall, but I hate when people shout about specific examples in LINES (such as Guangfei) when it was much worse earlier on. In that spirit, I've done alot to relate the Davians to their origional neighbors. In truth, my current concept of 'Davian' couldn't be farther from the first. They were Germanic at first, but over the many turns, they're morhped into semi-Germanic, majority- German/Greek mixtures, with a sprinkling of latin into the culture. I've also related them by the Davians being ethnically a mixture of ancient strands of Valin, Eldranian, Dula-Hathran, and other groups that migrated east (this was actually the original background for Davar).
I'll give an example of what I'm proposing:
After alot of debate, the vote comes in and there is call for an Indo-European Cradle for Cradle #1- thus this Cradle becomes majority-Indo. After this, the map is divided among those people wishing for a Persain style* culture, those wishing for a Greek/Roman culture, and those wishing for a Celtic culture. These regions are mapped, and people are forbidden to create a culture associated with the region outside the mainstay.
After this, we can take a Greek culture onwards. Say that on the map, a region lying between two mountain ranges, a desert, a sea, and an expanse of black will be given a greek name (Lets be cheap and go Hellenes). Within this region, Greek cultures would be dicatated. Players must adopt the Greek panthenon, through they are free to choose a patron god if they wish on a national level. As I said before, nations bordering two regions may take their pick. (NOTE- this is not to say that the cultures can't grow outside their starting positions- if a strong nation takes over swathes of land located in another zone, then the culture of that nation expands along with it.)
*- I am using an OTL example to simply
.
~Darkening~
Weep, Mother.
Bird, if you willing to suffer all that punishment, I feel sorry for you .
.
The discussion has been excellent. I do not know what will be the best path, but am thinking about everything that has been posted.Bird, if you willing to suffer all that punishment, I feel sorry for you
Things that I have to keep in mind are 1) that I am pretty crappy at creating cultures and 2) when there are 30 different cultures floating around and all of them are new to me, I get them confused.
alex994
Hail Divine Emperor!
Yes, you never did realize that Khmerian or Khmeran or etc weren't the correct adjective to describe Khmer
Yes, the strange logic of the orient esapes me.Yes, you never did realize that Khmerian or Khmeran or etc weren't the correct adjective to describe Khmer
~Darkening~
Weep, Mother.
Well, I'm making it extremely easy . At present, I'm conjugating the correct names of the things associated with the people, and I'm willing to reveal that I'm planning on using the name Márlosililéva. If someone actually figures out where this comes from (which, after thinking about it, could pretty much happen on this forum), it'd be somewhat annoying . You'd be able to translate everything I'd come up with. I actually expect one or two people to pick it up.
(and yes, I'd be quite POed if this doesn't come through).
. At present, I'm conjugating the correct names of the things associated with the people, and I'm willing to reveal that I'm planning on using the name Márlosililéva. If someone actually figures out where this comes from (which, after thinking about it, could pretty much happen on this forum), it'd be somewhat annoying . You'd be able to translate everything I'd come up with. I actually expect one or two people to pick it up.(and yes, I'd be quite POed if this doesn't come through).
Well I might use magical mod powers to change the name of your people toWell, I'm making it extremely easy
(and yes, I'd be quite POed if this doesn't come through).
Marleva so I can pronounce it.
~Darkening~
Weep, Mother.
The horror! You'd corrupt the meaning . Its easy to say, anyhow. Roughly pronounced, it'd come out Mayr-loh-sihlil-ayva. Through, since I have shown pity on you, the accepted short forms for the nation/ people are Már and Iliëon.Don't worry- when it starts, I'll send you the packet with whatever needed, plus translations included in orders .
Linguistics interest me if you haven't figured it out.
EDIT: If Márlosililéva scared you, you should see the long form for the people.
. Its easy to say, anyhow. Roughly pronounced, it'd come out Mayr-loh-sihlil-ayva. Through, since I have shown pity on you, the accepted short forms for the nation/ people are Már and Iliëon.Don't worry- when it starts, I'll send you the packet with whatever needed, plus translations included in orders .Linguistics interest me if you haven't figured it out
.EDIT: If Márlosililéva scared you, you should see the long form for the people
.I still think it would be best to have three separate cradles. Picture how cool it would be when they start to overlap. Primitive cradles would have more advanced nations of mysterious origins and bizarre cultures arriving, and you'd only see a little bit of the action happening in other areas.
I think it would be very cool!
@~Dark~- Darnit, now you've got me curious! CURSE YOU!
I think it would be very cool!
@~Dark~- Darnit, now you've got me curious! CURSE YOU!
alex994
Hail Divine Emperor!
*imagines a massive and advanced Chinese-esque fleet fleeing from defeat descending upon a primitive European-like cradle*
I fully expect at least 2. Alex between Charles Li and Silver in one and everyone else in the other.
Luckymoose
The World is Mine
That is how Rome was formed.
~Darkening~
Weep, Mother.
What did I do again?
