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General News Regarding China & Hong Kong

Putin wants to restore Russia to Soviet glory and power with him at it's head. (Tzar?) The Baltics help with that. His biggest problem is that Russia doesn't have much to offer anyone (economically) except energy. Its politics are totally corrupt, its population aging, life expectancy is falling and if it weren't for Putin stirring up trouble, nobody would care.
 
Mind that in case of a US-China war, we have no idea what shape NATO is even in

The sad thing is we do know what shape NATO is in, and it's not good. Aside from the US, France, and the UK, the militaries of NATO are in poor shape. Most of the nation's nations of NATO can at least use the excuse of not having the money to afford a powerful military, but a nation like Germany has no excuse for their military to be in such a poor state of combat readiness.
 
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Since the end of the Warsaw pact NATO has had no justification at all. The only reason nations in there even remain is to not upset the US. Cowardly nations in a cowardly pact upholding cowardly might is right policies that more often miss the mark than make the world a better place. Pathetic people who usually served and lost will do anything to justify their and their friends sacrifice even if in total vain. As Trump would say if he for once was on the right side of history: Sad.
 
Putin wants to restore Russia to Soviet glory and power

What sane former Soviet citizen wouldn't want this? The vast majority of people living in the former Soviet Union enjoyed far higher standards of living under the Soviet system...
 
The only reason nations in there even remain is to not upset the US

I don't know if it would really upset us all that much anymore if the alliance broke up. Pro-NATO sentiment in the US has definitely declined with some being anti-NATO while the majority is just kinda "meh" about the whole thing and couldn't care one way or the other.
 
Pretty dumb development, really.
 
Since the only difference between those two scenarios lies in the underlying motivation of the Chinese state, for any observer there would be nothing to distinguish them. There can also exist no proof, short of public admission from the authorities.
I don't think that's true. The conspiracy theory propounded by Falun Gong is that the Chinese state systematically abducts their practitioners to harvest their organs while they are still alive. Even before we get into the utterly preposterous figures which the cult advances, there is no credible evidence for this.

The reality, so far as it can be substantiated, is that the existence of a large black- and grey-market in human organs creates a perverse incentive for local officials to exaggerate charges and accelerate executions to provide more involuntary donors. There is no clear suggestion that dissidents are being targeted specifically, that additional arrests are made to facilitate this practice, or that this is occuring systematically across the country. There is zero evidence that live organ harvesting is involved at any point. That Falun Gong practitioners may already be prisoners, that they are more likely to be the sorts of prisoners whose disappearance will not be noted, is basically incidental.

You claim that there would be no proof, but why not? There's proof that organs are harvested from executed prisoners, and there's proof that this practice continued despite official prohibition. If there was no proof for this practice, we would be rightly sceptical; we accept these claims because they have been substantiated by numerous independent sources. If China was a black box, we wouldn't have this jumping-off point in the first place; we can't have it both ways.

My post was in reply to your:
"
Traitorfish said:
{Snip}
The Cultural Revolution was a period of civil war and radicalisation that the country has to be amped up to, not some state of nature into which it might relapse. Why would we expect it to reoccur?"

Nothing to do with organ harvesting.
My mistake! What I get for trying to carry on multiple discussions in one thread.
 
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Meanwhile, the official news earlier today was the statement by Gauleiterin Carrie Lam that she was not going to resign…
 
If China was a black box, we wouldn't have this jumping-off point in the first place; we can't have it both ways.

Sure we can. It's a pretty basic cover up tactic to allow evidence of one atrocity or crime to get out in order to draw attention away from the commission of another worse atrocity.
 
Sure we can. It's a pretty basic cover up tactic to allow evidence of one atrocity or crime to get out in order to draw attention away from the commission of another worse atrocity.
Trump has been doing it for over two years now.
 
1st, the Falun Gong do sound a bit crazy.
https://www.culteducation.com/group...alun-gong-china-cracks-down-on-mysticism.html
Falun Gong's founder, Li Hongzhi, was one of many professed masters of traditional Chinese breathing exercises, known as qigong, to emerge during a resurgence of the discipline in the late 1980's and early 1990's. The exercises are meant to focus the body's vital energy, which traditional Chinese medicine calls qi. This energy has its mundane uses, like improving one's health and sense of well-being. But there has always been a supernatural undercurrent to its cultivation, which has included the belief that qigong (pronounced chee-goong) can also be used to develop the ability to fly, to move objects by telekinesis and to heal diseases.

Mr. Li differentiated himself from other qigong masters by wrapping his regimen in a cosmology that promises salvation through the refinement of one's character until the body literally evolves into another form of matter. At that point, the saved person is capable of flying to paradise, which may exist out in the cosmos, or in another dimension.

He said interracial children are the spawn of the "Dharma Ending Period," a Buddhist phrase that refers to an era of moral degeneration. In an interview last year, he said each race has its own paradise, and he later told followers in Australia that, "The yellow people, the white people, and the black people have corresponding races in heaven." As a result, he said, interracial children have no place in heaven without his intervention.

He also included many of China's folk superstitions, making references to fox and weasel spirits, which make Falun Gong attractive to the masses. It offered a homegrown religion, not the staid, state-sanctioned Buddhism and Taoism, or the foreign feel of Christianity. And it did so at a time when religious interest was on the rise, as disillusioned Chinese sought spiritual solace in the aftermath of the massacre of pro-democracy demonstrators in 1989.

Mr. Li preaches a number of other peculiar doctrines, among them that the Earth is gradually being infiltrated by aliens. "Some people you see walking on the streets are, in fact, not humans," he told followers last year. He reports seeing green, blue and multicolored beings in other dimensions, and says the magician David Copperfield can fly. Mr. Li claims that he, too, can fly, though he says it is against his enlightened nature to do so in public.

None of this is metaphorical. In an interview last year, Mr. Li said all of the things he talks about are real, though he is constrained in describing them by the limitations of human language. What makes such pronouncements more than harmless eccentricity is that Mr. Li also exhorts his followers to "defend the Fa," or law, as described by his teachings, praising those who confront China's often brutish state police.
Not as crazy as the Boxer Rebellion people who thought they were immune from bullets.
https://www.britannica.com/event/Boxer-Rebellion


How does this substantiate the claim that dissidents are being kidnapped to conduct live organ transplants?

Are dissidents being kidnapped?
Yes, with extreme prejudice.
https://theweek.com/speedreads/7641...nas-global-kidnapping-program-reached-america


How many Falun gong have been arrested?
Millions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Falun_Gong

Foreign observers estimate that hundreds of thousands and perhaps millions of Falun Gong practitioners have been detained in "re-education through labor" camps, prisons and other detention facilities for refusing to renounce the spiritual practice.[4][10] Former prisoners have reported that Falun Gong practitioners consistently received "the longest sentences and worst treatment" in labor camps, and in some facilities Falun Gong practitioners formed the substantial majority of detainees.[11][12] As of 2009, at least 2,000 Falun Gong practitioners had been reportedly tortured to death in the persecution campaign.[13] Some international observers and judicial authorities have described the campaign against Falun Gong as a genocide.[14][15] In 2009, courts in Spain and Argentina indicted senior Chinese officials for genocide and crimes against humanity for their role in orchestrating the suppression of Falun Gong.[16][17][18]


Who exactly are the witnesses to the most controversial point, the harvesting of organs from live people?

A few sources are highlighted in Human Harvest: China's Organ Trafficking by Leon Lee.

https://www.smh.com.au/world/chinas...t-exposed-in-documentary-20150407-1mgabb.html
"When I cut through [the body] blood was still running ... this person was not dead," said one doctor of his first encounter with live organ harvesting as a medical student filmed by Lee.

"I took the liver and two kidneys. It took me 30 minutes," he said.

A former Chinese hospital worker and doctor's wife, whose identity was withheld, told Lee that her husband had removed the corneas of 2000 people while they were still alive. Afterwards the bodies were secretly incinerated.

2 Anonymous people in a Peabody Award winning film? :hmm:

Falling for the conspiracy theory at 0:13 I see!

Ok, who else?
https://nypost.com/2019/06/01/chine...for-their-organs-former-hospital-worker-says/
Zheng Qiaozhi — we will call him George — still has nightmares. He was interning at China’s Shenyang Army General Hospital when he was drafted to be part of an organ-harvesting team.

The prisoner was brought in, tied hand and foot, but very much alive. The army doctor in charge sliced him open from chest to belly button and exposed his two kidneys. “Cut the veins and arteries,” he told his shocked intern. George did as he was told. Blood spurted everywhere.

An intern named Zheng Qiaozhi.
He was the one who claimed eyeballs were scooped out of terrified awake patients, which sounds like a lie.


I've looked around and can find only these 3 so-called people.
I will concede the evidence that people are being harvested while still alive is much weaker than I thought.
 
Meanwhile, the official news earlier today was the statement by Gauleiterin Carrie Lam that she was not going to resign…

She's probably not allowed to resign. In this part of the world, the belief in cleaning up your own mess is strong. But if it's not really viable, they'll quietly arrange for a transition to happen soon.
 
From my point of view that is only a matter of time.
 
A couple of opinions from CNA
Asia
Thousands gather at Chater Garden in Hong Kong for #MeToo protest against police
View attachment upload_2019-8-29_6-50-36.gif
Thousands of protesters gather in Hong Kong's Chater Garden to protest against police use of sexual violence. (Photo: Twitter/KongTsungGan)
28 Aug 2019 11:36PM (Updated: 28 Aug 2019 11:40PM)

HONG KONG: Thousands gathered in Hong Kong's Chater Garden on Wednesday (Aug 28) evening to protest against alleged sexual assaults by police against female protesters.

Dubbed the "#MeToo" rally, some showed up with "#ProtestToo" written on their arms with red lipstick.
Continued https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/asia/hong-kong-protests-police-sexual-violence-metoo-11850296

And a pro Peking opinion

Commentary: It's Hong Kong's elites who have failed the city
A powerful, but oft-ignored factor underlying the frustrations of Hong Kong’s people is inequality, say China experts Andrew Sheng and Xiao Geng.

View attachment upload_2019-8-29_6-52-41.gif
A man watches a television showing Hong Kong Chief Executive Carrie Lam speaking during a live press conference, at a restaurant in Hong Kong on June 18, 2019. (Photo: AFP)




By Andrew Sheng





By Xiao Geng

29 Aug 2019 06:29AM (Updated: 29 Aug 2019 06:30AM)
HONG KONG: Since China regained sovereignty over Hong Kong on Jul 1, 1997, the city has prospered economically, but festered politically.

Now, one of the world’s richest cities is engulfed by protests, which have blocked roads, paralysed the airport, and at times descended into violence.

Continued https://www.channelnewsasia.com/new...d-elites-government-property-tycoons-11847680
 
She's probably not allowed to resign. In this part of the world, the belief in cleaning up your own mess is strong. But if it's not really viable, they'll quietly arrange for a transition to happen soon.
Not until she signs the voluntary organ donor card
 
What sane former Soviet citizen wouldn't want this? The vast majority of people living in the former Soviet Union enjoyed far higher standards of living under the Soviet system...
1) I'm sane former Soviet citizen and I certainly don't want this.
2) Wonder why living standards that were already rather abysmal in the former Soviet Union are often even more abysmal today. That certainly has nothing to do with Putin's two decades of glorious rule./sarcasm
Since the end of the Warsaw pact NATO has had no justification at all. The only reason nations in there even remain is to not upset the US. Cowardly nations in a cowardly pact upholding cowardly might is right policies that more often miss the mark than make the world a better place. Pathetic people who usually served and lost will do anything to justify their and their friends sacrifice even if in total vain. As Trump would say if he for once was on the right side of history: Sad.
Wars require "justification". Since when does mutual defense and cooperation require "justification"?
 
1) I'm sane former Soviet citizen and I certainly don't want this.
2) Wonder why living standards that were already rather abysmal in the former Soviet Union are often even more abysmal today. That certainly has nothing to do with Putin's two decades of glorious rule./sarcasm

1. Of course not. What sane person would want higher standards of living.. Life is so much better with oligarchs privatizing everything and then channelling their profits offshore to where the action is.

2. Certainly easier to blame foreign leaders than to make an effort to fix your house. Do it for another couple decades, see if it helps.
 
1. Of course not. What sane person would want higher standards of living.. Life is so much better with oligarchs privatizing everything and then channelling their profits offshore to where the action is.

2. Certainly easier to blame foreign leaders than to make an effort to fix your house. Do it for another couple decades, see if it helps.

You mean instead of corrupt party politicians doing exactly the same?
Back then mostly the party-elite benefitted, nowadays it is a bunch of politicians and their circle of friends.

Not having done as well as one had hoped for is not a reason to go back to a system that failed utterly. The only reason why some people pine for those days is because the country seemed more powerful and important back then. Not to mention that there were others that got bullied and oppressed, and quite a few people don't mind being near the bottom of the barrel as long as there is someone else who is still below them they can look down upon.
 
In terms of GDP, the biggest growth among post-Soviet republic was in petro-states (Turkmenistan, Azerbaijan).
But Turkmenistan political system didn't change for the better after USSR, it essentially turned into Middle-Asian monarchy.
The worst performers are Ukraine and Moldova. Ukrainian inflation-adjusted GDP reduced 1.5 times between 1991-2015.
 
1. Of course not. What sane person would want higher standards of living.. Life is so much better with oligarchs privatizing everything and then channelling their profits offshore to where the action is.

2. Certainly easier to blame foreign leaders than to make an effort to fix your house. Do it for another couple decades, see if it helps.
Which foreign leaders? I'm suggesting Russian leadership might be responsible for problems that Russia experiences.
As for my own country/"house", living standards have increased drastically since the end of USSR.
In terms of GDP, the biggest growth among post-Soviet republic was in petro-states (Turkmenistan, Azerbaijan).
But Turkmenistan political system didn't change for the better after USSR, it essentially turned into Middle-Asian monarchy.
The worst performers are Ukraine and Moldova. Ukrainian inflation-adjusted GDP reduced 1.5 times between 1991-2015.
2018 GDP per capita: PPP dollars; nominal dollars
Estonia: 34,096; 22, 990
Russia: 29 267; 11,327
Turkmenistan: 19,527; 7,646
Ukraine: 9,283; 2,963
 
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