Verbose
Deity
The values of the free and open society are real. You want to replace them with something that does respect them at all because the imperfection of the world that's your business. But it is cutting off your nose to spite your face.
General News Regarding China & Hong Kong
- Thread starter Commodore
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Joij21
🔥Hail Satan!🔥
Wouldn't that be a better society? Or did you mean doesn't?
Traitorfish
The Tighnahulish Kid
Life expectancy increased from under 40 to over 70; literacy increased from less than 25% to over 95%; child mortality decreased from over 300 per 100k to less than 20 per 100k; population in poverty decreased from over 80% to less than 5%; the total elimination of eleven major diseases including smallpox and malaria.
For your average Chinese person, these are achievements which convey at least some legitimacy.
Verbose
Deity
You want to rationalize totalitarianism – fine by me.
The free and open society must be defended. China in its present political guise if outright hostile to it. Ant it's precisely that kind of argument – a kind of zero sum one (the disadvantages of political control and lack of freedom are offset by the things you mentioned) – that supposedly makes it all an acceptable trade-off. Is it really? It's what the CCP tends to claim.
Historically it is what dictatorships tend to claim, just generally.
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Traitorfish
The Tighnahulish Kid
You misunderstand me: I am not attempt to justify why the government of the People's Republic of China should considered legitimate, I am describing why it is considered legitimate by the majority of its citizens. It has achieved tangible improvements in the material conditions of ordinary Chinese people, that the material conditions of most Chinese people continue to improve, and seem likely to improve in future; that things today are better than they were yesterday, and will be better tomorrow than they are today.
For most people, throughout most of time and space, that is sufficient to constitute legitimacy, because that is fundamentally what they expect a government to provide, a guarantee of their material well-being. There was a reason that Pharaohs were expected to ensure that the sun rose in the morning and the river flooded at the appropriate time of year, because these were these were the foundations of the material well-being of his subjects. This may change as more of China's citizens find their basic material needs satisfied and their expectations expand to a broader sense of well-being, but that's just speculation: we can only describe what seems to be happening now.
H4run
Deity
that's ugh, the numbers is dubious, should we just take those numbers as granted and project it as reality of China? I don't think poverty is decrease to less than 5%, how they define poverty? what is the parameter? China is pretty famous for manipulating information and giving false projection about their image. Perhaps there is the factor of "don't want to lose face" that such concept hard to be understand by Westerners.
H4run
Deity
Bamspeedy
CheeseBob
China has improved greatly, but some of the statistical improvements seem greater than they are because China started at such a terrible point.
Life expectancy in China was only 40 in 1950. Good they increased it, can't expect another country that was already near 70 in 1950 to also increase life expectancy by the same amount and be near 100.
Poverty- Going from $1/day to $2/day would be 'lifted out of poverty' in some countries, not so in others.
H4run
Deity
ouuuwwwhh so their definition of poverty are those who earn less than 2$ a day, now now I get it
yea it would be silly not to admit there is change and growth, however those statistic are lots of bull-crap, and they lied like 99 out of 100 times, like how they inform us about covid late 2019 and early 2020, remember? also how they juiced up the statistic to make everything seems alright? also how about their transparency information regarding the Uyghur? I would not trust them more than NK. And what is these accomplishment in the face of the 21 century auschwitz in Xin Jiang?
Fool us once shame on them, fool us twice shame on us!
Ferocitus
Deity
Yes, and that's how some of us remember the US trying similar tactics in Kuwait and Iraq to get its poodles
to follow them into war.
The Uyghurs are just the USA's latest pawns, just like the Kurds were when they were temporarily useful.
Remember the hand-wringing over the plight of the Kurds? But then...
The U.S. Is Now Betraying the Kurds for the Eighth Time
Nothing in this world is certain except death, taxes, and America betraying the Kurds.
https://theintercept.com/2019/10/07/kurds-syria-turkey-trump-betrayal/
It's not looking good for your side in the upcoming UN resolutions. Especially now that representatives
of the African Union have actually visited the region themselves.
Strangely, Ukraine has also recently changed its intention to vote against China.
Even stranger, Turkey (which IIRC has taken in the most Uyghur refugees) and most, if not all Muslim
nations are not backing the resolutions. Of course, the numbers might change before the actual resolution,
but your side's arguments don't seem to have convinced them. Maybe they read Adrian Zenz's report and decided it's
a crock .
US State Department accusation of China ‘genocide’ relied on data abuse and baseless claims by far-right ideologue
https://thegrayzone.com/2021/02/18/...de-relied-on-fraudulent-far-right-researcher/
Keep beating that Pompeo-Zenz wardrum!
H4run
Deity
So what is the meaning behind all of these sentences here? are you saying the human-rights atrocities in Uyghur are not matter because for the fact America can use it to whip China? Well no one care more about the crap you are doing than your enemy, but that doesn't negate the crap you are doing aren't crap, just because those who hate you took your mistake and throw it to your face. It is still count as a mistake you made.
I don't get this.
I don't give an atom of crap if all of these nations are supporting the oppression, and if for the fact that their leader are Muslim, Christian, or Zuzuism doesn't change the fact or decrease the value of the oppression, and this doesn't reflect anything except that the life and dignity of the Ugyhur means less value than their own political agenda.
US State Department accusation of China ‘genocide’ relied on data abuse and baseless claims by far-right ideologue
https://thegrayzone.com/2021/02/18/...de-relied-on-fraudulent-far-right-researcher/
Keep beating that Pompeo-Zenz wardrum!
Who is this Pompous Zenc? I never heard it until you mentioned it now, so you are trying to said that the whole report about the Uyghur atrocities are coming from Pompous, and Pompous is a far right hence all the facts about the Uyghur oppression are all lies and conspiracy, lol you are trying to make the hugest and easiest straw-man you can knock, you really playing a lot of fallacies game here don't you?
And you really don't value those peoples who suffer from rape, torture and continuous mistreatment at the camp aren't you? You treat this like a football game, where this is not about real community got drill and strip off from their basic human-right, but this about the league that you like: China, against the league that you don't like: America, and Uyghur is just the ball here.
Lol you are hopeless.
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Ferocitus
Deity
Zenz is the primary source for the accusations against Uyghurs. Look him up. He'll have you in raptures. 
Too bad you don't care about what other nations think of the accusations. They will be voting on it in the UN.
I'd like to hear all sides of the accusations and where they came from tested. You seem only to want one side.
As I said, I don't pretend to care about Uyghurs or Kurds and, although I'm a Communist, the Chinese system is
something that the CCP tailor to suit China at its present state of development. It is of little use in most other
countries.
I'm far more interested in watching the propaganda war and how information and disinformation spread. And it's
fun to throw in an article here that doesn't accept at face value what your side says.
The Uyghurs are just the latest Karens demanding that the World's Police come to help them. Maybe the CCP
should have used the same methods as the US in Afghanistan after a terrorist attack on their soil.
Too bad you don't care about what other nations think of the accusations. They will be voting on it in the UN.
I'd like to hear all sides of the accusations and where they came from tested. You seem only to want one side.
As I said, I don't pretend to care about Uyghurs or Kurds and, although I'm a Communist, the Chinese system is
something that the CCP tailor to suit China at its present state of development. It is of little use in most other
countries.
I'm far more interested in watching the propaganda war and how information and disinformation spread. And it's
fun to throw in an article here that doesn't accept at face value what your side says.
The Uyghurs are just the latest Karens demanding that the World's Police come to help them. Maybe the CCP
should have used the same methods as the US in Afghanistan after a terrorist attack on their soil.
H4run
Deity
Zenz is the primary source for the accusations against Uyghurs. Look him up. He'll have you in raptures.
Too bad you don't care about what other nations think of the accusations. They will be voting on it in the UN.
I'd like to hear all sides of the accusations and where they came from tested. You seem only to want one side.
As I said, I don't pretend to care about Uyghurs or Kurds and, although I'm a Communist, the Chinese system is
something that the CCP tailor to suit China at its present state of development. It is of little use in most other
countries.
I'm far more interested in watching the propaganda war and how information and disinformation spread. And it's
fun to throw in an article here that doesn't accept at face value what your side says.
The Uyghurs are just the latest Karens demanding that the World's Police come to help them. Maybe the CCP
should have used the same methods as the US in Afghanistan after a terrorist attack on their soil.
First of all I know in person about the oppression due to the fact many of my close friends are Uyghur, I know many of them have lost contact with their family because they sent their family to the camp. I don't get the information from this Pompous Zenz as you try to discredit initially, in-fact I know first hand those who suffer from the oppression.
Again no one want to tailor CCP or whatnot, you just derailing the conversation, understandably because you believe that by admitting the atrocities in Xin Jiang it is vis a vis endangering the formation and the existence of CCP. You are basically turn out to be their tool voluntarily.
And the rest of the low shot about Uyghur being Karen is just a low-taste of humor, the treatment that POW got in Guantanamo or Abu Ghraib is horrible, horrible even an understatement, but what Uyghurs are going through in that camp even far beyond that, and it's not aim for selective individual but the whole peoples and community, and the CCP here are against their own citizen not against the insurgence specifically. And your words here, with your light laugh and crap, is just utterly disgusting, you have failed to see them as human.
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aelf
Ashen One
I predict the reply will involve either some kind of oppression Olympics or yet another tu quoque about the Western powers.
H4run
Deity
lol I don't even know if that means the pattern is predictable or just boring, cringy and painful.
Ferocitus
Deity
Maybe they were there giving HK support on behalf of the organisation(s) founded by Stetko and Dobriansky?
Have you come across those two Nazi Nogudniks in your political travels?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lev_Dobriansky
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaroslav_Stetsko
I'm still hunting for more information, but it wouldn't surprise me if there is a direct connection of the Ukrainian
visitors to Hong Kong and Adrian Zenz and Mike Pompeo.
Zenz currently serves as a fellow at the Victims of Communism Memorial Foundation, a Washington DC-
based right-wing lobbying front born out of the National Captive Nations Committee. The latter group
was founded by Ukrainian nationalist Lev Dobriansky to stifle any efforts at diplomacy with the
Soviet Union. Its co-chairman, Yaroslav Stetsko, was a leader of the OUN-B militia that fought
alongside Nazi Germany during its occupation of Ukraine in World War II.
https://thegrayzone.com/2021/02/18/...de-relied-on-fraudulent-far-right-researcher/
Ferocitus
Deity
What did your unfortunate refugees say their loved ones were charged with? Petty crimes (given that Uyghurs and
some other minorities in China go to re-education camps instead of prison), or were they part of the East
Turkistan seccession movement and/or had they hooked up with al_Qaeda?
I see it more that you've been duped by those honest guys Trump, Pompeo and his colleague Adrian Zenz.
Trump is said to have lied at least 30,000 times during his time in office and you believe him?
You won't even read the counter-claims to their lies. And that's what will come up at any human rights
tribunal at the UN or The Hague, so you should look into them, because it won't be just the Chinese and
their stooges who will be presenting evidence against the claims. There are those who demand evidence, not
the type of crap that Trump's supporters tried to present to the courts in their >60 losing court cases.
That's exactly what claims from Trump and his rapture ready former appointees deserve!
BTW, the African Union representatives also disagree with you, and they went to Xin Jiang, saw the camps and the
so-called "slave labour" entities that employed Uyghurs.
H4run
Deity
None of it. Many of the Uyghurs that stayed abroad are initially believed to be "radicalized" by the Chinese government, and going to hajj also put someone as a target after they went back, the Chinese government don't want to take any risk, and just put each "target" in re-education camp for a force (in the most horrible way) assimilation.
Those who too scare to go back due to this repetitive pattern and try to prolong their stay aboard, they would be question further by the authority, if there are any legit reasoning behind their pro-long stay, like for instance for study they can tolerate that depend on which faculty you are taking, however if the reasoning is just for working abroad or studying a subject that put alarm to the government, they will refuse to renew their passport in order to put them in a legal pressure and force them to go back. If their family fails to convince them to go back to mainland while at the same time still maintaining contact, their family would also be taken, their weechat account would be deleted and they would lost contact with their family in China, it is basically a collective punishment.
Many of the family are even far from religious, they are non-practicing, some even work as a government worker, or a professor in University, a celebrity. Your initial pre-judgement that they are some sort of Al Qaeda fifth columnist already reveal that you enter this discussion with a full stance supporting whatever decision that the Chinese government decided is a sound judgement and must have a good valid reasoning behind it, to put it simply you are basically their unpaid intellectual goon, or just a believer.
I believe that you are not that naïve and you know what happened, however you think what the Chinese government do is a necessary evil for a greater good, which is sick, and you pretend to be oblivious here, as it's already pretty obvious after several reading of your post you are quite pragmatic on your stance and tend to read "might" as "right". So I think, I hate to believe that I just wasting my time arguing with you here.
Now you try to connect this human right crisis in Xin Jiang to right wing agenda and Trump again, and you said I believe all Trump 30.000 times lies without being critical, and I wonder where do you get this idea and how you can made up this thing out of nowhere. Smh. And again you mention how the world leader disagreeing with me, and all of those rant and diversion that has little to do with this discussion, I actually quite lost on what the heck you are trying to say here to be honest. So whatever, take and hug that claim, I hope you feel better.
Ferocitus
Deity
You are just parroting the same arguments that right-wingers like Trump, Pompeo and Zenz, as well
as nutters at The Epoch Times, are making. You have provided no evidence, just hearsay.
So far, none of the accusations have been able to be substantiated and none have been able to be
made into an action that has any legal credibility. All we have are accusations. It's the same type of
rubbish that Trump supporters tried over 60 times and in every case they were rejected. Many lawyers
who presented those accusations without supporting evidence are now facing disciplinary hearings.
I presented reports from others that dispute the genocide claim. In fact, one major source is a journalist
who is no friend of authoritarian governments, and who was the first to reveal the genocide in Cambodia,
and the Indonesian abuses in East Timor.
He and his group of journalists rely on evidence. Trump and friends rely on rumours and hearsay to move
public opinion. You clearly haven't read any of the very detailed criticisms of the genocide claims, so don't
pretend to have arguments against them. Yes, they regard the treatment as very heavy-handed, but that is
a long, long way from genocide. The conditions in prisons in most of the world are very harsh, so I don't doubt
that Uyghurs are finding their prisons any better.
The Chinese decided, for their own reasons, to tackle the problem of terrorism in their own way - by attempting
to re-educate and de-radicalize those they believe need it. That's their way: the USA used its methods for
handling terrorism; the UK also uses the means it regards as effective with their problems, and so do Israel
and many other countries.
Good luck! Over 40 groups have approached Biden and other Democrat politicians wanting their
government to back away from some of the anti-Chinese hysteria because the sanctions are hurting
their climate change initiatives. The hysterical claims of genocide are ridiculous and, as the US has
done many times before, their "moral" stance will soon vanish and "human rights" will again be
shown to be a tradable commodity.
as nutters at The Epoch Times, are making. You have provided no evidence, just hearsay.
So far, none of the accusations have been able to be substantiated and none have been able to be
made into an action that has any legal credibility. All we have are accusations. It's the same type of
rubbish that Trump supporters tried over 60 times and in every case they were rejected. Many lawyers
who presented those accusations without supporting evidence are now facing disciplinary hearings.
I presented reports from others that dispute the genocide claim. In fact, one major source is a journalist
who is no friend of authoritarian governments, and who was the first to reveal the genocide in Cambodia,
and the Indonesian abuses in East Timor.
He and his group of journalists rely on evidence. Trump and friends rely on rumours and hearsay to move
public opinion. You clearly haven't read any of the very detailed criticisms of the genocide claims, so don't
pretend to have arguments against them. Yes, they regard the treatment as very heavy-handed, but that is
a long, long way from genocide. The conditions in prisons in most of the world are very harsh, so I don't doubt
that Uyghurs are finding their prisons any better.
The Chinese decided, for their own reasons, to tackle the problem of terrorism in their own way - by attempting
to re-educate and de-radicalize those they believe need it. That's their way: the USA used its methods for
handling terrorism; the UK also uses the means it regards as effective with their problems, and so do Israel
and many other countries.
Good luck! Over 40 groups have approached Biden and other Democrat politicians wanting their
government to back away from some of the anti-Chinese hysteria because the sanctions are hurting
their climate change initiatives. The hysterical claims of genocide are ridiculous and, as the US has
done many times before, their "moral" stance will soon vanish and "human rights" will again be
shown to be a tradable commodity.
Joij21
🔥Hail Satan!🔥
Disciplinary hearings from whom? The CCP?
