[RD] George Floyd and protesting while black

[El_Machinae]

Tamir Rice is certainly a tragic example. No argument there. But if he pointed a realistic-looking toy gun at a police officer, it's hard to fault the officer for what happened. (did it have an orange tip? I don't think so but I don't trust my memory. I'm doing good to remember their names)

"Orange tip" is a stupid workaround, because an orange tip tells you nothing about the threat of a gun. Here's why.

A real gun can have an orange tip. Once you know that, then something that looks like a real gun but has an orange tip is indistinguishable from a real gun with an orange tip.

I got banned from a gun rights forum for not being able to get them to understand this (it was about a law banned the sale of things that too much looked like guns). These are the people who think they should be allowed to carry guns around, hidden. And they cannot discern a Type 1 error from a Type 2 error.

 

[Hrothbern]

Even in the most intense firefights I experienced in Iraq we wouldn't fire indiscriminately into crowds or other areas where we knew civilians would get caught in the crossfire.

I doubt the entire crowd was firing on them, if anyone was at all, so firing into said crowd isn't an acceptable action even if we take the Louisville police's story at face value. The proper course of action would have been to find cover/concealment, ascertain where/who the fire is coming from and either take steps to eliminate the threat or fall back to a better position if the threat can't be eliminated without causing unacceptable collateral damage.

How many hours of training would you guess it takes to learn the standard police officer to act as disciplined groups fit for Louisville situations ?

Initial training hours
yearly maintenance hours

 

[zxcvbob]

"Orange tip" is a stupid workaround, because an orange tip tells you nothing about the threat of a gun. Here's why.

A real gun can have an orange tip. Once you know that, then something that looks like a real gun but has an orange tip is indistinguishable from a real gun with an orange tip.

I got banned from a gun rights forum for not being able to get them to understand this (it was about a law banned the sale of things that too much looked like guns). These are the people who think they should be allowed to carry guns around, hidden. And they cannot discern a Type 1 error from a Type 2 error.

I understand that. But what is Type 1 and Type 2?

 

[El_Machinae]

It's a statistical term

Type 1 error is thinking something is true, but being wrong. (freaking out because you thought a stick was a snake, the cost is over-reaction)
Type 2 error is missing something you should have noticed. (ignoring a snake because you assume it's a stick, the cost is failing-to-react)

Trying to dial down the one mistake probably causes the other mistake to happen more commonly.

https://www.khanacademy.org/math/ap...r/v/introduction-to-type-i-and-type-ii-errors

After awhile, most errors in reacting appropriately to a situation can be broken down into those two categories.

 

[Farm Boy]

It's also why "never again" can be such a fantastically dangerous mindset.

 

[red_elk]

I doubt the entire crowd was firing on them, if anyone was at all

Reminds me of a joke that Russian cops statistically have highest in the world percentage of hits on warning shots.

 

[Commodore]

How many hours of training would you guess it takes to learn the standard police officer to act as disciplined groups fit for Louisville situations ?

Initial training hours
yearly maintenance hours

Well the US Army Basic Combat Training is 9 weeks and if you are part of the regular army (which I was) then you spend every waking moment not spent on deployment reinforcing that training.

Maybe the police need a similar training regimen.

 

[Farm Boy]

College programs designed to forward careers in law enforcement are not doing well.

 

[r16]

ı have been ranting on the web , ı don't know , anywhere between 12 to 13 or 14 years now . ı did say we wouldn't go and stuff and ı don't have much trouble sleeping because five hundred thousands or a million Syrians have died , because ı didn't have the real means to kick some backside as the most preferred option and reaching to masses as the least . For members of CFC ? ı can reach them , however silly and stupid my efforts can be . That ı didn't bother to warn people that they would be mere statistics , or there are others who would get a payrise and whatever for identifying "troublemakers" as if they were scalps being delivered to some American dude in that quarter century of pacification , THAT would be a bigger insult . ı really know how people can be drunk on power , your trouble in the US is that those drunkards have been failing rather spectacularly these days and they need a quick and easy fix .

 

[Takhisis]

Having actually lived through anti-government terrorism and actual violent overthrowing of governments I'd definitely not recommend it. You need a Gandhi or a post-imprisonment Mandela.

 

[SupremacyKing2]

Well, it looks like America is descending into civil unrest.

 

[Takhisis]

Well, it looks like America is descending into civil unrest.

a) what do I care? Let them riot
b) give them some entertainment
c) go to city screen

 

[Commodore]

Having actually lived through anti-government terrorism and actual violent overthrowing of governments I'd definitely not recommend it. You need a Gandhi or a post-imprisonment Mandela.

Of course no one would recommend it, but sometimes it's just something that needs to be done. If the people just sit around waiting for some great leader to swoop in and liberate them, then things are only going to get worse.

 

[SupremacyKing2]

a) what do I care? Let them riot
b) give them some entertainment
c) go to city screen

If only real life were as easy as civ. Unfortunately, it looks like Trump is going with d) garrison military unit in city center.

 

[Ferocitus]

If only real life were as easy as civ. Unfortunately, it looks like Trump is going with d) garrison military unit in city center.

and
e) Retreat to bunker.

 

[JohannaK]

No, he took it away. The policemen got info that hes pointing out weapon on other people randomly, they should fall to false expectations that people are in immediate danger. Still I think if he would be an asian/white guy he would live.

I have reread some of cases on wikipedia today.
Philando Castile was clear murder.
George Floyd is murder.
Michael Brown and Trayvon Martin are quite justified self-defense to me.

Of course, its my european perspective. I dont know US laws.

A police officer shooting an unarmed person, whether there was an altercation or not, is murder. A self-appointed vigilante engaging an unknown, unarmed person, and shooting them in an alleged altercation is murder.

Murder overrules any claims to self-defence, unless the victims were wielding guns, which they demonstrably did not. One should have been trained to not shoot, and the other should not have taken justice into his own hands. These are basic civic duties and also basic human decency.

 

[Samson]

How many hours of training would you guess it takes to learn the standard police officer to act as disciplined groups fit for Louisville situations ?

Initial training hours
yearly maintenance hours

Yeah, but these are rules of engangment. Before going out there they discussed what happens if someone shots at you. If they were told to fire into the crowd then someone at the top has to answer. If they were told to retreat then the person who fired into the crowd has to answer.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

If people had told me last year that the second american civil war would start from a protest in may during a global pandemic and with members of congress openly demanding people be shot in the streets I would have thought they belonged in an institution.

 

[Imaus]

Trump has gone on tv, thrown a bible around, smiled, and acted like he was winning, and spouted about Martial Law, or W/e.

So now the riots will probably get worse, spread out more, and leave him with hot **** in his tiny little hands; his blustering about the military, law, and order, peace and being admonished at the spilling of innocent blood will get in his face.

 

[Birdjaguar]

In his speech today Trump reminded his supports of their second amendment rights, a clear signal that citizens can shoot people in the name of keeping order. I guess he forgot that ?blacks also have second amendment rights to defend themselves. Trouble ahead.