[RD] George Floyd and protesting while black

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Gandhi was working with a population that was not all that far removed from agrarian.
That is true, but this is discussing tactics, not strategy.
French revolution was just a bigger mountain of dead.
And a full-circle one.
In Russia, somebody threw Pepsi can to the US embassy. Was detained for hooliganism.
Environmental damage.
Brown - asians, arabs, greeks, gypsies, italians, native americans, persians, spanish/portuguese?
In the US pretty much anyone who comes from European descent is considered white. For example, on any form that asks for racial identification they have two separate categories for Hispanic: white and non-white/Latino. White Hispanics being ones from Spain and non-white/Latino being Hispanics from Central and South America.
The new (2016-?) search engine is a bit inefficient, but I did post a link to a surprising article from the NYT in which it described how a long time ago southern Italians were downgraded to Negroes and lynched along with bona fide African-Americans.
 
I understand that the 2nd degree charge is an additional charge, that 3rd degree will remain as a lesser included charge. Am I wrong?
I'm not sure that you can charge somebody with different types of murder but I do know that you can charge somebody with murder and manslaughter. US procedural law is a nightmare.
 
Mike Mullen: I Cannot Remain Silent

James Mattis Denounces President Trump, Describes Him as a Threat to the Constitution

George Will: ‘There Is No Such Thing as Rock Bottom for Trump. Assume the Worst Is Yet to Come.’

"Those who think our unhinged president’s recent mania about a murder two decades ago that never happened represents his moral nadir have missed the lesson of his life: There is no such thing as rock bottom. So, assume that the worst is yet to come. Which implicates national security: Abroad, anti-Americanism sleeps lightly when it sleeps at all, and it is wide-awake as decent people judge our nation’s health by the character of those to whom power is entrusted."

Who's next?
 
The news don't stop:

28m ago: In extraordinary rebuke, Mattis attacks Trump for dividing the nation
Jim Mattis, a former defense secretary who quit the Trump administration in 2018, offered a withering criticism of his former boss, saying, “Donald Trump is the first president in my lifetime who does not try to unite the American people — does not even pretend to try.”​

Who's next?

Protests continue as US defense secretary rejects Trump’s demand for troops
[Mark] Esper says he disagrees with Trump’s wish to use troops as crowd gathers on Capitol Hill to protest George Floyd’s killing

Protests over the death of George Floyd continued across the US on Wednesday, after a largely peaceful night. As demonstrators returned to the streets, police chiefs called for reform – and the US secretary of defense publicly rejected Donald Trump’s threat to deploy combat troops.

Spoiler :
Floyd, a 46-year-old African American man, died in Minneapolis on 25 May when an officer kneeled on his neck for nearly nine minutes during an arrest. That officer, Derek Chauvin, was fired then charged with murder. On Wednesday afternoon Keith Ellison, the Minnesota attorney general, announced an elevate charge against Chauvin and charged three more officers with aiding and abetting.

Protests against police brutality and racism arose after Floyd’s death, before a crackdown by federal and state authorities led to the worst civil unrest in the US since the assassination of Martin Luther King Jr in 1968.

Curfews remain in place in most major US cities, dampening the potential for confrontation between protesters and police in the hours of darkness. On Tuesday, many marchers defied the deadline.

Minneapolis and St Paul, New York, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Phoenix, Atlanta and other cities remained largely peaceful. In cities including Portland, Oregon, and Tampa and St Petersburg in Florida, crowds were forcibly dispersed.

In Washington, where the area around the White House has seen intense clashes involving federal officers, demonstrators gathered calmly. On Wednesday, a crowd gathered on Capitol Hill.

As they did so, and as the US president continued to defend the decision to use rubber bullets and chemical agents against protesters around St John’s church on Monday, the defense secretary, Mark Esper, said he did not agree with Trump’s wish to use combat troops to impose or maintain order.

“I do not support invoking the Insurrection Act,” Esper told reporters at the Pentagon, referring to 1807 legislation which would allow the president to call in units moved close to Washington.

The White House press secretary, Kayleigh McEnany, later told reporters the Insurrection Act was “definitely a tool within [Trump’s] power”. She also declined to say if Trump might fire his defense secretary for his public comments. It was later reported that the Pentagon had reversed a decision to move combat units away.

Elsewhere, a prominent African American police chief called for a ban on police chokeholds and restraints similar to that which killed Floyd, whose official autopsy ruled his death a homicide.

“We do not just need a nationwide ban,” Cerelyn Davis, police chief of Durham, North Carolina, told ABC News. “We need nationwide standards. We need sweeping changes that are supported with legislation … to ensure that every agency large and small have the best practices in place or we are going to continue to see these [deaths].”

“The emotions and feelings that we see expressed out on the streets of cities all across the country going way back are substantiated,” Davis added. “There have been years and years of systemic racism in law enforcement.”

In New York in July 2014, a chokehold during an arrest resulted in the death of Eric Garner. His last words, “I can’t breathe”, became a rallying cry of the Black Lives Matter movement. Floyd said the same words as he lay handcuffed in Minneapolis on Memorial Day.

The New York police chief, Terrence Monahan, told ABC all police leaders needed to “take a good hard look at their agency, to bridge the gap between cops and community”.

“Whatever reforms there are it’s important that we see one another as human,” he said.

Floyd’s memorial service will be in Minneapolis on Thursday. His funeral will be in Houston, where he grew up, next week. Art Acevedo, Houston police chief, rejected Trump’s threat to send troops into states that do not “dominate” protesters.

“This is Texas,” Acevedo told ABC, “cities are safe, things are going well here, we do not need any support in terms of federal troops.”

The Insurrection Act of 1807 was passed by Thomas Jefferson, the third president, alarmed by the behaviour of former vice-president Aaron Burr in the unsettled west. It was last invoked in 1992, over riots in Los Angeles provoked by the police beating of Rodney King.

On Wednesday, Esper said: “The option to use active-duty forces in a law enforcement role should only be used as a matter of last resort and only in the most urgent and dire of situations. We are not in one of those situations now.”

Trump has repeatedly said he thinks the US is in such a situation. On Monday, the president harangued governors on a call leaked to outlets including the Guardian. On Wednesday, he told Fox News Radio: “After we had the one evening which was a little rough, we brought in the troops.”

He also claimed he had not spent part of Friday night in a bunker under the White House, but had “inspected” it briefly during the day. That was contrary to multiple reports citing White House officials.

Trump also said protesters “burned down” St John’s church, where on Monday the president posed with a Bible, a controversial photo op staged to reassure evangelical supporters. In fact, the rector of the “Church of the Presidents” told parishioners a “small fire” damaged part of the basement.

Esper also addressed criticism for his decision, with Gen Mark Milley, chairman of the joint chiefs of staff, to walk with Trump to St John’s after peaceful protesters were forcibly cleared from the area. The defense secretary said he always “tried to stay apolitical” and had not been “aware that a photo op was happening”.

The American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU), meanwhile, filed a lawsuit against Minneapolis police and the Minnesota state patrol, alleging violations of the rights of journalists covering protests.

Journalists have been injured across the US. The lead plaintiff in the ACLU case is Jared Goyette, a freelance reporter who has covered the protests for the Guardian. He says he was shot in the face by a rubber bullet fired by police.

How long do people think Esper has left before Trump accepts his resignation?
 
We need to meme-craft Trump in front of the teargassed church, so that it becomes his "Mission Accomplished" moment.
 
The new (2016-?) search engine is a bit inefficient, but I did post a link to a surprising article from the NYT in which it described how a long time ago southern Italians were downgraded to Negroes and lynched along with bona fide African-Americans.
The same low status had visually very white Irish people, they have been considered naturally inferior race, the racism was very strong. This led me to belief, that race is mostly socioeconomic status and propaganda. Today is Ireland quite wealthy and their infamous status was gained by other people, including very white eastern europeans.
 
Also, some things people need to be reminded of:

The racism that killed George Floyd was built in Britain
Afua Hirsch
This is not just ‘horrible stuff that happens in America’. Black people know we need to dismantle the same system here

Pay attention to African Americans.

The headlines are now describing the US as a nation in crisis. As the protests against the killing of African American George Floyd by a white police officer enter their second week – curfews in more than 40 cities, the deployment of the national guard in 15 states – there is a far deeper, more important message. Because the US is not, if we are honest, “in crisis”. That suggests something broken, unable to function as planned. What black people are experiencing the world over is a system that finds their bodies expendable, by design.

Spoiler :
African Americans told us this when they lost Trayvon Martin, Sandra Bland, Ahmaud Arbery, Breonna Taylor, Eric Garner, Chinedu Okobi, Michael Brown, Aiyana Jones, Tamir Rice, Jordan Davis, Alton Sterling, Philando Castile, and so many more.

African Americans told us this after 9/11, when headlines described the US as being in a “state of terror”. “Living in a state of terror was new to many white people in America,” said the late, great Maya Angelou, “but black people have been living in a state of terror in this country for more than 400 years.”

African Americans told us this during the civil rights movement, the last time the US knew protests on this scale. And if the world paid attention to black people, then it would know that this state of terror extends far beyond the US. The Ghanaian president, Nana Akufo-Addo, captured the trauma of so many Africans around the world when he said that black people everywhere were “shocked and distraught”.

In Australia, protesters relived the death of David Dungay, a 26-year-old Indigenous Australian man who died while being restrained by five guards in 2015. He also cried the haunting phrase, “I can’t breathe.” Meanwhile, just this week, a police commissioner in Sydney said that an officer filmed casually attacking an Indigenous teenager with brutal violence had “had a bad day.”

In the UK, black people and our allies are taking to the streets as I write to wake British people up out of their fantasy that this crisis of race is a problem that is both uniquely American, and solvable by people returning to the status quo.

The foreign secretary, Dominic Raab, said on behalf of Britain: “We want to see de-escalation of all of those tensions.” If he had bothered to listen to black British people, he might have discovered that many of us do not want de-escalation. We want protest, we want change, and we know it is something for which we must fight. Because many of us have been fighting for this all our lives.

The British government could have had the humility to use this moment to acknowledge Britain’s experiences. It could have discussed how Britain helped invent anti-black racism, how today’s US traces its racist heritage to British colonies in America, and how it was Britain that industrialised black enslavement in the Caribbean, initiated systems of apartheid all over the African continent, using the appropriation of black land, resources and labour to fight both world wars and using it again to reconstruct the peace.

And how, today, black people in Britain are still being dehumanised by the media, disproportionately imprisoned and dying in police custody, and now also dying disproportionately of Covid-19.

What the British government did instead is remarkable. First, it emerged that it may have used George Floyd’s death as an excuse to delay a report into the disparity in ethnic minority deaths from Covid-19. Although the Department of Health officially denies it, there were reports that the Public Health England review was delayed because of concerns in Whitehall about the “close proximity to the current situation in America”.

The government needn’t have worried, because instead of meeting the grief in our communities at so many deaths from Covid-19, its review fails to offer any new insight anyway. It has now emerged that a key section, containing information on the potential role of discrimination, was removed before publication.

The government’s response has been to appoint Kemi Badenoch, the minister for equalities, and a black woman, to “get to the bottom” of the problem. What do we know about Badenoch’s approach to racism in Britain? On “institutional racism” – a phenomenon that affects minorities in Britain – she has been reported as saying that she doesn’t recognise it . On former mayoral candidate Zac Goldsmith’s Islamophobic campaign? She helped run it. On the black community? She doesn’t believe that it really exists.

On American racism? “We don’t have all the horrible stuff that’s happened in America here,” Badenoch said in 2017.

For those of us who see racism for what it is, as a system that kills – both our bodies, and our humanity – this is traumatic. I listened to the health secretary, Matt Hancock, announce – as if it was his new discovery – that “black lives matter”, and offer someone as seemingly uninterested in anti-racism as Badenoch as a solution.

Meanwhile, that “horrible stuff that’s happened in America”?

Our reaction to George Floyd’s death as black British people is our expression of generations of lifelong, profound, unravelling pain. Some of us are speaking about this for the first time, in too many cases that I’m personally aware of, attracting reprimands and sanctions at work.

My own personal protest has been silence. Not silence at those protesting, with whom I am in full solidarity, and to whom I offer my support, my labour, my platform, my time and my resources. But a refusal to participate in the broadcast media, which – when racism becomes, for a few short days, a relevant part of the news cycle – call me in their dozens inviting me to painstakingly explain how systems of race are constructed.

This time I’m watching other black people graciously, brilliantly, appear on these platforms to educate hosts and viewers alike. And I know next time they will be asked to come again and repeat the same wisdom.

We do this work all the time. We have taken what we inherited and had no choice but to make sense of it. We have studied, read, written and understood the destructive power of race. And we are telling you that race is a system that Britain built here.

We are also telling you that as long as you send all children out into the world to be actively educated into racism, taught a white supremacist version of history, literature and art, then you are setting up a future generation to perpetuate the same violence on which that system of power depends.

We are telling you that we need to dismantle, not to de-escalate.

Pay attention.

When I saw on the TV that the ongoing coronavirus infection is having its highest death toll among US blacks and its highest economic toll on Hispanics i thought that maybe it still wasn't a bug but a feature.
 
The same low status had visually very white Irish people, they have been considered naturally inferior race, the racism was very strong. This led me to belief, that race is mostly socioeconomic status and propaganda. Today is Ireland quite wealthy and their infamous status was gained by other people, including eastern europeans.
The Irish were Catholics and the US was already branching out onto its own version of Evangelical Christianity which, unlike the 18th-century Evangelicals in England who fought against slavery, very much backed and supported slavery, not least because (they claimed) it helped improve the slaves' lot in life. :ack:
 
Moderator Action: Whilst I agree with most of the sentiments here in the thread (Yes, change is needed badly), I would like to take the opportunity to remind posters that this is a public forum, visible to anyone. Espousing views of revolution and insurrection are one thing, but it is different to actually start promoting those views and trying to foment rebellion. There have been a couple of comments in the thread which have made me concerned enough to write this. I have no problem with all of you voicing your opinions and being socially aware, but think about what you post. It would be a tragedy if any one of you attracted the attention of a three letter agency due to comments made here.

Have your discussion (and hopefully a spirited one at that), but make sure that you don't make any overt threats of violence to anyone or anything. I want all of you here and to be able to speak your minds, not defending yourself in court. Thank you.
 
I think too many people think this is going to be successful. Last night the violence has died down. There may have been a few scuffles but its no longer what it was a few days ago when everything was on fire. I mean it looked like Vikings were sacking all of America, but now? Nothing. Which only proves that once the cops started getting more aggressive most of the people dispersed. Even the people that didn't disperse were now not looting anymore. So it just goes to show that the protesters are only serious when the police give them a whole block to burn undefended. Plus shop owners across the country are now defending their stores with firearms, and the larger stores with more money are even paying for private security mercenaries to defend the rooftops with assault rifles. Again I don't think the protesters have the balls to go up against all that, hence the decrease of rioting last night. They seem to only loot, and only easy targets at that. Put it simple, it seems they may have never had a cause to begin with.

Decline in looting and damage may just speak to more organisation emerging
 
In the US pretty much anyone who comes from European descent is considered white. For example, on any form that asks for racial identification they have two separate categories for Hispanic: white and non-white/Latino. White Hispanics being ones from Spain and non-white/Latino being Hispanics from Central and South America.

To slightly clarify this, there's Latinos of all races from Latin America too, and the terms Latino and Hispanic aren't so much a racial designation but a cross-cutting ethnocultural one.

Essentially, the most important US demographic axis of analysis, historically, was race ie black and white, hence why it's always been in the census and in government statistics and the like.

However, Latinos don't fit into that race and skin colour based schema due to different history and forms of identity, and even the Latino Amnericans who consider themselves specifically white/European rather than to be mestizo, black, Amerindian or Asian, don't really get treated the same as WASPs unless they're thoroughly passing. They are therefore a large group, distinct from anglo white Americans, who often suffer discrimination and certainly warrant specific economic and social analysis. So a second question, regarding ancestry, became more important in order to capture Latino status in statistics and surveys.

So to fully capture the key lines of division and difference in US demographics, you need to ask about both race and ancestry. Then, combining the two things into a single question gets you stuff like "white non hispanic" and "non-white hispanic" as tickbox options.
 
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Wapo did a study of police killings, more black people (armed and unarmed) were killed under Obama while about 1,000 people of all races are killed each year. In 2019, 236 black people were killed by cops, only 10 (9 men, 1 woman) were unarmed and most of the 10 cases involved other forms of assault. In 2015 the number of unarmed black fatalities was 38, last year was the safest for unarmed white and black people.

I never had much respect for Biden anyway, but it's entirely clear that he's a status quo war hawk just like Hillary.

He voted against the 1st Gulf War, voted for the 2nd (so did she), and I haven't been able to confirm this yet but apparently advised against Libya and Syria. She supported or engineered both.

Black looters shouldn’t be targeting Hispanic businesses in the first place, they need to be on the same side.

Because white people are racists

They should have been in jail the entire time awaiting charges. Like every other citizen would have been. . .

I dont think you'd be jailed for standing around while a cop choked someone to death.
 
@Bezerker I would have had them burn down and loot stores from corporations (regardless of color of the ceos) rather than small businesses, even the white ones.
 
They should have been in jail the entire time awaiting charges. Like every other citizen would have been. . .

There is no law requiring a citizen to put themselves at risk attempting to prevent a crime. Nor is there any law requiring a citizen to report a crime to law enforcement or assist law enforcement in any way. Any cooperation is voluntary.

What law may apply to these cops I have no idea.
 
The news don't stop:

28m ago: In extraordinary rebuke, Mattis attacks Trump for dividing the nation
Jim Mattis, a former defense secretary who quit the Trump administration in 2018, offered a withering criticism of his former boss, saying, “Donald Trump is the first president in my lifetime who does not try to unite the American people — does not even pretend to try.”
Wow, Mattis only just felt like saying this *checks calendar* over two year since Trump was already calling Nazis very fine people and building those horrific baby cages - while also instructing the DoJ to argue in court that the government was not obliged to provide migrant children with toothpaste.
Feels like the messenger coming to warn about the Vikings after they have already sacked the monastery and burned the village. Nothing we are seeing from Trump now is in any way a surprise.
 
Wow, Mattis only just felt like saying this *checks calendar* over two year since Trump was already calling Nazis very fine people and building those horrific baby cages - while also instructing the DoJ to argue in court that the government was not obliged to provide migrant children with toothpaste.
Feels like the messenger coming to warn about the Vikings after they have already sacked the monastery and burned the village. Nothing we are seeing from Trump now is in any way a surprise.

Because he's military, and the military (and for the most part their families) don't speak ill or disrespectfully of a sitting president -- even if they don't like him. That things got so bad that he had to speak out against his personal code of ethics is a big deal. My wife was raised in a military family, and she scolds me all the time when I say "Trump" or said "Obama"; it's President Trump and was President Obama. ("Mr" is probably okay) She says she has to scold herself too, especially regarding Mr. Trump.

Also, Trump never called Nazis fine people. I think he said there were some fine people at the Charlottesville protest, and perhaps *you* called them all Nazis; painting them with the widest brush possible, because you're the bigot. (no offense)
 
Also, Trump never called Nazis fine people. I think he said there were some fine people at the Charlottesville protest, and perhaps *you* called them all Nazis; painting them with the widest brush possible, because you're the bigot. (no offense)

Trump actually said there were fine people "on both sides." Since one of the sides were self declared white supremacists the conclusion there is pretty inescapable.
 
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