[RD] George Floyd and protesting while black

[Estebonrober]

Democrats are not culpable? The drug war is immoral, I dont care who is responsible for it. The drug war is institutional racism. If we remove racist cops but keep the drug war will black on black crime sink to levels comparable to other races? The disease is the black market in drugs, that drives up crime rates and calls for more police.

What would happen if the drug war was reduced in black neighborhoods and increased in white and Hispanic neighborhoods? Fewer dead black people and more dead white and brown people, not just from cops but the general population. If you're right why do the cops kill fewer Hispanics than black and white?



The explanation is in the article. They didn't stop by Burger King on the way to jail, he was in jail after a manhunt and hadn't eaten for a while so they sent out for food because if they didn't feed him he could claim his rights were violated jeopardizing any confession.



The cops cant hold people indefinitely without feeding them, people have rights.

I'm sure I can find that horsehocky of a human being something sustaining without giving him a ten dollar fast food meal.

 

[El_Machinae]

The Drug War IS a massive underlying cause of the modern version of the problem. But it's not the only part of the problem, which is why so much institutional change is required.

 

[Arwon]

Gotta say I'm pretty shocked Belgium still has statues of Leopold II, he's the maniac for whom even diehard colonialists and white supremacists say "yeah that was a bit much"

 

[Timsup2nothin]

I can't believe that Berzerker has sidetracked this with one of his usual "defense of the indefenable" ploys. Is there anyone, really, that thinks he actually believes his own BS?

 

[Arwon]

Historically, the racist drug war quite neatly replaced the racist vagrancy laws as a pretty effective means of railroading Black Americans into losing their voting rights.

 

[Estebonrober]

I can't believe that Berzerker has sidetracked this with one of his usual "defense of the indefenable" ploys. Is there anyone, really, that thinks he actually believes his own BS?

So far my hot take on this thread is that @Commodore is trying to honeypot one of us into illegal action

(I'm not sure about the rules on posting this, I really only mean it tongue and cheek, if its a rule breaker I apologize for it)

Hi! @Commodore !

 

[Zardnaar]

Historically, the racist drug war quite neatly replaced the racist vagrancy laws as a pretty effective means of railroading Black Americans into losing their voting rights.

I can understand loss of voting rights while incarcerated. Don't agree with it but ok.

Loss of voting rights on release though seems very very wrong.

 

[Arwon]

I can understand loss of voting rights while incarcerated. Don't agree with it but ok.

Loss of voting rights on release though seems very very wrong.

It was a deliberate Reconstruction-era design choice in places like Florida. Make broad arbitrary criminal laws that can be enforced in very racist ways, use long sentences and the prison system to extract free black labour, and use lifetime criminal voting bans to reduce black voting power. Post-slavery reassertion of white power over black people by other means.

Remember how Florida is a key swing state? That's with a million people banned from voting.

Florida has now had a referendum overturn the lifetime voting ban, but they're minimising this impact by putting people through a bureaucratic process and fees to regain voting rights. Those fees were recently struck down in the courts (like 2 weeks ago), but this is an ongoing battle.

 

[Berzerker]

I can't believe that Berzerker has sidetracked this with one of his usual "defense of the indefenable" ploys. Is there anyone, really, that thinks he actually believes his own BS?

I didn't believe your BS about Dylan Roof getting a trip to Burger King on the way to jail and now you're mad about it.

 

[Zardnaar]

It was a deliberate Reconstruction-era design choice in places like Florida. Make broad arbitrary criminal laws that can be enforced in very racist ways, use long sentences and the prison system to extract free black labour, and use lifetime criminal voting bans to reduce black voting power. Post-slavery reassertion of white power over black people by other means.

Remember how Florida is a key swing state? That's with a million people banned from voting.

Florida has now had a referendum overturn the lifetime voting ban, but they're minimising this impact by putting people through a bureaucratic process and fees to regain voting rights. Those fees were recently struck down in the courts (like 2 weeks ago), but this is an ongoing battle.

Yeah I know.

I think prisoners didn't get to vote here until recently. But it was restored on release.

I might support stripping it for life sentences type crimes. But eventually most people will get released so they should focus a bit more on the rehabilitation side of things except for certain crimes maybe.

Don't even need to be a citizen here to vote.

 

[r16]

beating the South American flight things is though , Pink Floyd thing was probably indicated the owner was probably in those circles where people were leftists and he/she got the habit from them so he/she is also a Commie under KGB influence and following Cuban plots to hinder exploitation of mines and whatever . But no , ı won't give it up easily and it is 60s or 70s and the Police is raiding the house of some person in the Left and they are "Gotcha!" and they show each other a proof , an instrument of crime , a book . Possibly has a foul word like Communism as its title . The owner , surprised , says it is ANTl communist , like you know , something the Police should approve , it still goes ahead , because anti was a new word for those cops ...

 

[AmazonQueen]

Do you have a link? The only 42% I found was from a 2014 study of 800 SWAT raids "affecting" black households, not deaths. The same study showed 12% of Hispanic households which is below their % of the population. I'm not sure why but from the stats I've seen Hispanics have less trouble from the cops than both blacks and whites.

No knock raids primarily target younger men, other people who get killed are usually the result of mistakes - like Breonna Taylor and the case you linked from Georgia. But the number of people killed in such raids is relatively small.



https://www.courier-journal.com/sto...adly-combination-civilians-police/5193854002/

I think thats innocent people, there are more killed over petty crimes. Many wrong tips come from people seeking better deals after they get busted. If the drug war focuses on black neighborhoods the tips will disproportionately target other black people.

I was incorrect. The only figure given was 50% of deaths were from minorities.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/03/18/us/forced-entry-warrant-drug-raid.html?smid=pl-share

 

[Anysense]

They don't have to be more trustworthy than the government. My point was they will not have immunity from lawsuits like the police do. You can sometimes sue the police but it's very hard to get over the "qualified immunity" hurdle.

Well, qualified immunity is rubbish. It should have been abondoned long ago. I don't know why it was introduced in the first place; it simply does not make sense that people who are there to uphold the law do not have to abide by that law. I suppose the intentions were sort of good, but the whole thing appears to be completely broken and serving different purpose. What's wrong with prosecution in US if they can sometimes fail to even indict a cop who commited a murder, let alone sentence him?

 

[Commodore]

So far my hot take on this thread is that @Commodore is trying to honeypot one of us into illegal action

(I'm not sure about the rules on posting this, I really only mean it tongue and cheek, if its a rule breaker I apologize for it)

Hi! @Commodore !

Haha. No I'm just fed up with cops and how they abuse their authority. The way they conduct themselves is completely contrary to everything this nation is supposed to stand for. In my mind that makes them a domestic enemy, and I swore an oath to protect this nation from all enemies, foreign and domestic.

 

[Modder_Mode]

She was killed after firing on cops during a botched drug raid. If you fired at the cops raiding your home they would have probably shot you too. So even if we count this one case, its obvious being black does not trigger cops. What does?

The vast majority of people killed by cops are younger men and the vast majority of them were either armed or engaged in threatening behavior. Why are younger black men disproportionately represented in the stats? Decades of drug wars and black market violence concentrated in their neighborhoods.



AQ said being black triggers police violence, he's wrong. How many black women are killed by the cops? Very few, police violence is usually directed at men, younger men. Do you think black on black crime contributes to the number of younger black men killed by cops?

During alcohol prohibition white men were getting killed in larger numbers because of black market violence tied to illegal booze. Fewer cops enforcing fewer laws - especially legalizing/decriminalizing widespread behavior like drug possession - will reduce the body count. Not just from cops killing civilians, but among the citizenry.

Cops kill people of all races and apparently Hispanics are less likely to be killed than black and white people. Why is that? Maybe Hispanics have fewer violent run ins with the cops. The drug war breeds racism so where the war is waged will impact race relations more. Cops patrolling neighborhoods hit hard by black market violence will see more violent encounters and kill more people. You think the main culprit is racist cops, I think its a racist drug war.

Fatal police shootings are strongly tied to situations in which violent crime is being committed or suspected of being committed. A typical fatal police shooting occurs when there is the potential for imminent death to an officer or other citizen. Almost 85 percent of police fatal shootings involve armed citizens.

And I am not talking about unarmed citizens here, that's why I'm careful with my wording, unarmed black people or anyone for that matter who are not placing police in imminent danger and are killed by the police should face justice like anyone else who commits such a crime, no ones disagreeing with this (supposedly I am a "boot licker" because I don't believe all police are bad).

Why is there a drug war and so much unpaid black prison labor, anyway? Real stumper, that one.

The cops are racist and the institutions are racist and the society is racist.

And if you disagree, what is your alternative explanation for why America is the way it is?

Because there's a direct correlation between socioeconomics and crime. Once you take class out of the picture you can see how class drives these incarceration rates in the first place.

Class, more than race, is the single greatest predictor of how likely someone is to land behind bars:

https://www.motherjones.com/crime-j...ns-is-glaring-and-poverty-is-making-it-worse/

And yes I know there are varying arguments as to why black people are on the lower strung of the social class ladder, some of which I agree with.

 

[Cutlass]

Counter protesters are certainly tone deaf.




Counter protest reenacting George Floyd's death in South Jersey goes viral
Carly Q. Romalino | Cherry Hill Courier-Post | 16 hours ago


https://amp.courierpostonline.com/amp/5326467002?__twitter_impression=true

The videos reportedly originated from the Franklinville Black Lives Matter protest on Delsea Drive Monday.

From videos seemingly from the perspective of those marching, protesters peacefully chanted "black lives matter" as they followed a Franklin Township Police Department escort.


As the group passes a property, loaded with fire wood and advertising it for sale, one man lays on the ground as another kneels on his neck. Two more men stand by and watch. One records the protest and the now-viral counter protest. A woman looks on from between two pickup trucks and several other people are nearby on the property.

The scene is set before a backdrop of Trump support banners, American flags, police support flags strung up on pickup trucks and a handmade "All Lives Matter" sign is posted on a stack of firewood.

The identity of the men and woman in the video has not been confirmed.


In a second video protesters approach chanting "we're not stopping."

A voice from the counter protest yells "keep walking, start running" and motions for the group to keep moving.

One man lays on the ground, and another man wearing a gray shirt and white cap kneels on his neck, hollering to protesters: "If you don't comply, that's what happens."

Another man on the property yells: "He f---ing passed bad checks."

As the group continues chanting "black lives matter," a voice on the recording near the counter protest says loudly: "to no one." Then chants back "Black lives matter — to no one."

Another voice loudly yells: "All lives matter; police lives matter" and "God bless the po-lice, you dumb-ass protesters."

This story will be updated.

Carly Q. Romalino is a Gloucester County native who's covered South Jersey since 2008. She's a Rowan University graduate and a six-time New Jersey Press Association award winner.

She is the Courier Post's "watch dog," taking deep dives into matters throughout the region.

Help support local journalism with a subscription to the Courier Post.

Someone thinks the cops did nothing wrong. Wonder which politics they support?

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Counter protesters are certainly tone deaf.




Counter protest reenacting George Floyd's death in South Jersey goes viral
Carly Q. Romalino | Cherry Hill Courier-Post | 16 hours ago


https://amp.courierpostonline.com/amp/5326467002?__twitter_impression=true





Someone thinks the cops did nothing wrong. Wonder which politics they support?

These people literally lack humanity, they are the perfect footsoldiers for the gop who count on the brainless to do they biddings

 

[Bugfatty300]

Someone thinks the cops did nothing wrong. Wonder which politics they support?

Impossible to say but they could be democrats. I heard from a trusted poster here that they do bad stuff too. So it's pretty much a coin flip.

 

[Bamspeedy]

Counter protesters are certainly tone deaf.




Counter protest reenacting George Floyd's death in South Jersey goes viral
Carly Q. Romalino | Cherry Hill Courier-Post | 16 hours ago


https://amp.courierpostonline.com/amp/5326467002?__twitter_impression=true





Someone thinks the cops did nothing wrong. Wonder which politics they support?

Surprised by two things.

1. Thought it happened in the south or middle of the country to feed the stereotypes, but it happened in NJ.
2. 'Unincorporated community' I thought would be a town of less than 100 people. Franklinville has over 10,000. Upon further reading of why this is, New Jersey is weird.

 

[innonimatu]

Gotta say I'm pretty shocked Belgium still has statues of Leopold II, he's the maniac for whom even diehard colonialists and white supremacists say "yeah that was a bit much"

Taliban-like phony moral outrage seems to be a thing of anglo-saxon countries. Perhaps it's the puritan heritage? Shall the italians demolish the Colosseum because it was a place of killing of persecuted people? Destroy the statues of all the past tyrants, and slavers, starting with Caesar perhaps?

This prosecution of statues seems silly to be, to say the least. We can live with the past. It's the present that needs caring about. Americans, as usual, are falling for distractions. And exporting their culture wars through its media, slavishly copied in Europe. Continental europeans usually were not so easily intoxicated, but young fools consume too much US-influenced media.

I was pondering whether to post this because the situation in the US really is foreign to me, and because I don't trust the author any more than I trust, say, Adam Tooze. But I do thing it's an analysis at least worth thinking about:

A Left Critique of the Current Protests

Activists rightly recognised that “Justice for George” wasn’t a sufficiently robust demand. They have been trying to leverage the protests into a wider critique of the criminal justice system, and especially the police as an institution. “Abolish the Police” is their preferred objective.

The problem is that the “abolish” slogan doesn’t give us a clear alternative vision for how to secure order.
...
Many of the anarchist proposals largely ignore the reasons that the police became a one-size-fits-all solution to social problems. Other public services have gradually been run down over decades of budget cuts. As our schools, our welfare programs, and our social services have declined, increasingly strung-out American citizens have turned to a variety of poor coping mechanisms. We have huge numbers of people taking opiates and huge numbers of people pressed into gangs to supply those addicts. We have many people who are increasingly isolated and lonely, who are deeply alienated from our society and harbour a lot of resentment. These distressed Americans have acquired an immense number of guns. We cannot expect our citizens to follow the law when they grow up neglected by their own government. We cannot stop lawbreakers who are armed to the teeth without arms of our own. As we gradually run down the quality of our public services and desocialize our own people, we create a heavily militarised form of law enforcement to protect us from the mess we are creating.

As long as we have millions of alienated, armed Americans, the police will never be abolished. Calls for their abolishment will instead result in privatisation. The Democratic mayors who run our cities want to avoid responsibility for the killings that are the result of decades of their own negligent policy. Privatising the police divests them of culpability. Privatised police will be even less accountable than publicly run departments. They’ll probably kill even more people. But when it happens, the cities can blame it on the contractors. They can simply fire one outfit and hire another. The anarcho-capitalists have wanted this for ages. They are chomping at the bit to use these protests to make it happen.
...
The people who are best organized and most capable of taking advantage of the protests are the yuppie, bourgeois professionals. Many of these people have bachelors degrees in various social science and humanities disciplines, and their primary objective is to create jobs for themselves. They use the deaths of African-Americans as a business opportunity, demanding that companies employ them to run diversity training programs or hire them to diversify an endless series of government and corporate boards, commissions, and panels. These “woke neoliberals” always succeed in co-opting these protests, because they went to the same universities and speak the same language as the people who work for governments and corporations. They claim to offer diversity, but they succeed in getting positions because they are just like the people they aim to replace in every way that matters.

They attack capitalism not because they want to do away with it but because they want to run it themselves. They deceive poor and working people into supporting them, and once they acquire power they run the system the same way the “white” bourgeoisie ran it.
...
a Biden victory on the back of these protests will fuel a revival of the woke discourse that was so prevalent in the period immediately prior to Bernie Sanders (c. 2012-2015). Barack Obama’s second term saw an outpouring of demands for racial justice, but those demands also produced a right nationalist backlash. If Biden wins the presidency using this approach, we can expect the backlash to intensify, and the Republican Party will move even further right in the years to come. Trump uses nationalist rhetoric to win elections, but the next Republican president might genuinely believe in this stuff.
...
If this continues, the word “socialist” will come to mean what the Republicans during the Obama years always wanted it to mean–the woke neoliberalism of mainstream Democrats.
...
We have been slowly backsliding into the morass of the culture war for the past several years now, and this could be the moment when that backsliding becomes permanent and irreversible. If so, we are in for another decade of cultural antagonism between liberals and conservatives, fuelling ever more aggressive forms of nationalist revanchism. This is a dangerous game, and it is one we are very likely to lose.

I do think this is a very dangerous game people in the US are playing, walking into it without thinking it over. The kind of problems you seem to have there can't be solved with quick fixes. Racism does not seem, to me, to be the cause but the consequence of enduring, and worsening, problems.
I'm not ignorant of the value of symbols, and the need to start changing things somewhere. I do understand the pressure to change the police. But do it carefully, think what you want to change into before making or backing the demands. And organize to demand exactly that. The US desperately needs more plural politics, people there need to organize into political parties where they can hammer out coherent, well-thought programmes for changes. Not just two big tents that obviously cannot accommodate the diversity of a huge country and a complex society. Otherwise it's going to be more waves of protests easily disbanded not by outright censorship or police repression (those are used to contain them) but just by letting them wear out and die. Remember Occupy Wall Street?

Congratulations, Trump called troops to DC and "inspected" his bunker, you came perhaps as close to give a revolutionary scare to power as any time since the Bonus Army nearly a century ago. But the moment this time has passed. The Bonus Army did help in changing history, I think it weighted in pushing Roosevelt into a political path that made concessions to a population that was manifestly angry. Perhaps this too will be enough to push change. But you shouldn't have to depend on enlightened patricians taking cues... especially as Biden is no Roosevelt.