[RD] George Floyd and protesting while black

[Bugfatty300]

Personally they've got a ways to go. Ideally, to garner support, they've gotta cut out the demonization of whites, humiliating whites, and denounce the mob tearing down statues (Chiefly, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, U.S. Grant, known abolitionists). If their goal of an egalitarian society is punching down whites and making them second class citizens as retribution for past misdeeds our ancestors made, I want no part of it as that's not egalitarianism in my eyes.

I.E. not placating white people's little hurt feelings. No thanks. The harsh no BS approach is what opened my eyes. It works.

Edit: additionally, BLM has grown to be the largest protest movement in US history. I think they're having no trouble winning hearts and minds.

 

[El_Machinae]

Personally they've got a ways to go. Ideally, to garner support, they've gotta cut out the demonization of whites, humiliating whites, and denounce the mob tearing down statues (Chiefly, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, U.S. Grant, known abolitionists). If their goal of an egalitarian society is punching down whites and making them second class citizens as retribution for past misdeeds our ancestors made, I want no part of it as that's not egalitarianism in my eyes.

There are definitely people who are classified as 'white' who feel like they're being punched down on, and I do think it's worth the time of BLM supporters to listen to these concerns and emphasize that the goal here really is "All Lives Matter" (even though the phrase itself was created as racist pushback). It's why there are so many of us who emphasize various wealth-based solutions that would both forward the goals of the BLM movement and also prevent the feeling of 'punching down'.

But don't worry about mobs tearing down any statues that don't deserve it (in their exuberance). Statues can be rebuilt pretty easily once things settle down.

 

[EgonSpengler]

Personally they've got a ways to go. Ideally, to garner support, they've gotta cut out the demonization of whites, humiliating whites, and denounce the mob tearing down statues (Chiefly, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, U.S. Grant, known abolitionists). If their goal of an egalitarian society is punching down whites and making them second class citizens as retribution for past misdeeds our ancestors made, I want no part of it as that's not egalitarianism in my eyes.

Where do you even get that?

I'm curious, too. I mean, I admit I don't read everything every Black person ever writes, but I'm not completely out of touch either. Demonization and humiliation of Whites and making us second-class citizens? That's news to me. Who's asking for that?

 

[Takhisis]

Good luck with that; with Antifa terrorizing innocent bystanders, rampid cancel culture just because you don't bow down to their intersectionalist religion, racist blacks abusing it for their own end going after whites minding their own businesses. Right now, I just see BLM as the largest riot in US history.

Has your account been hijacked by Mouthwash and/or onejayhawk?

 

[El_Machinae]

Oh, make no mistake, it IS a racist dogwhistle. Or a way for people to dismiss BLM's concerns without thinking about them. Anybody who wants to express a sentiment of "we need to make changes that help everyone" is well-advised to not use the term "All Lives Matter" except during a careful explanation.

I wouldn't see BLM as an undeserved riot, though. We saw during the protests what BLM has been saying for awhile, that there's a lot of rot at the top.

 

[Seon]

Look, while all lives matter, all lives will never matter unless black lives matter.

 

[El_Machinae]

I don't think that works, even. "Black Lives Matter" is a slogan for a specific movement. It's not saying "black lives matter" in any real sense, so the racist pushback of "all lives matter" is just diversion from the underlying concern of the BLM movement. It's an attempt to re-frame the concern

The BLM movement is about specific and sustained oppression of (visibly) black people, such that the State misuses or overuses violence against them (or creates the tools that allow it). This caused deaths (from police) that then triggered a sense of outrage at the injustice.

It's a Justice issue, not a Harm issue (in the moral sense). It's about power imbalances being abused to cause harm to black people. When someone says (sincerely) that "all lives matter", they're talks about harms (and very potentially harms from institutional power structures, but potentially not).

So saying "while all lives matter, all lives will never matter unless black lives matter" can work, but it only works insofar as it redirects towards the underlying concern, which is that there are institutional power abuses. And if it's not about the institutional oppression, then it's discussed at a needs-based approach vs. a social justice approach. BLM is about justice and the sincere version of ALM is about harms.

 

[Estebonrober]

Laugh all you want I don't want gulags, great leaps forward, and state mandated atheism in my USA. And the majority of Americans don't want those things either.

Look Idk if you are just too young or just not well read enough to know, but Marxism is not some naturally evil thing. Like any other philosophical take or outlook it is a way of seeing something, in Marxism's case it is a way of seeing the economy, capitalism, labor and capital. You are using it as a pejorative unironically which indicates brainwashing. Gulags, great leaps forward, and state mandated atheism has litt

Sadly the phrase itself from the far leftists is deemed a racist dogwistle. I'm more in favor for All Lives Matter. I agree that the BLM supporters listen to the concerns normal people have as well as the people that feel punched down upon. Given the polarization of the US, I doubt that would very much happen.


Good luck with that; with Antifa terrorizing innocent bystanders, rampid cancel culture just because you don't bow down to their intersectionalist religion, racist blacks abusing it for their own end going after whites minding their own businesses. Right now, I just see BLM as the largest riot in US history.

Can you link me anything showing antifa terrorizing anyone during all this? I've seen a lot of cops terrorizing people, I've seen some right winger terrorize some people, I've seen what looked like organized crime groups loot, and I've seen protests break down and burn **** down. I've not seen antifa during much of any of this as of now.

Intersectionalism is a thing and it need not be about jsut cancel culture, maybe read a bit more about it and why you should not jsut blow it off out of hand?

I mean look its not like black americans have or could possibly have the power to enact revenge on whites for historical atrocities, but um ask yourself. . .If the roles were reversed, and especially as a young male, would you not consider revenge?

The US is literally built on riots. Its the Fourth of July here right now, without massive riots and attacking of local police we would not be celebrating this day, you can take your meek naivete elsewhere.

 

[Seon]

@el machinae

Honestly I am in agreement that anyone who says: All Lives Matter while dismissing Black Lives Matter is trying to deflect the issue/distract from BLM’s goals through reframing it.

The phrase was largely meant to dismiss the phrase, ALM as it purports to be mutually exclusive from BLM. You will note that a lot of people who shout ALM are positively allergic about saying BLM.

 

[El_Machinae]

Personally, I don't see it that way since I see it as "we need to make changes that help everyone" not just focused on blacks. Then again, I'm not overly obsessed with political correctness or seeing racists and Nazis under my bed.

The history of the phrase was to deflect from the movement. It was first as a racist dog whistle, but other people thought it was a feel-good sentiment, but eventually the fact that it was a dog whistle overwhelmed the good sentiment aspect. It's history makes it racist, which is why using other phrases when expressing actual Universal Goodwill is necessary.

One thing that I noticed is that every single group that could be framed as suffering from institutional oppression, everything from mental illness to oppressed minorities in other countries to the queer community, was happily wrapped into the BLM flag and treated as an ally. BLM is a very large tent.

Some people are determined to mischaracterize it and some people do it accidentally

 

[Estebonrober]

Personally, I don't see it that way since I see it as "we need to make changes that help everyone" not just focused on blacks. Then again, I'm not overly obsessed with political correctness or seeing racists and Nazis under my bed.


Though what doesn't help are the rioters and the looters using it as a cover to eather cover up their criminal activities or agendas to subvert the United State's Government and Democracy (Where you have the right call out the Marxists and anarchists using BLM as a cover).


No, just on edge of what I see on the news. I thought the virus put the whole SJW movement to rest and not have to worry about political correctness going mad or SJWs ruining my movies and video games, but I guess I was wrong. The tearing down statues of Washington, Jefferson, Grant (and other abolitionists) just really broke the camel's back for me.


Naturally, you don't hear about it from sources like CNN because they cover for their butts or play "help help! I'm being repressed" after someone they attack fights back out of defense.

Protester Blamed ‘Black Man’ for Giving Her Molotov Cocktail Gear. Then Cops Found Note From a White Painter.
Violence mars Portland protests, frustrates Black community.


Is that communism I hear? It's a toxic cultish movement that dismisses whites and demands that they stay in their lane and shut up.


Absolutely not.


Sorry but my opinions aren't "naivete" and I aint taking it elsewhere, SJW.

Um there is nothing in either of those stories indicating antifa and furthermore they are both very mainstream new sources. So yea if you can find antifa actually being implicated by actual DAs across the US it would be news to me. Here you have some white kids acting badly and frankly that could be kids acting badly, antifa types, or just as likely right wing instigators (whom DAs have charged across the nation)

Intersectionality is just academic talk about how **** is worse for double minorities then just regular minorities. Its really basic and obvious when you think about it. The cancel culture that has grown around it is complicated and I support some of it and dismiss other parts.

Well um ok. none of the hot bloodedness in you as youngin then?

That's fine I can dance! and thanks for the compliment. SJW are awesome. Its time we stopped acting like its a legitimate pejorative. Frankly it says everything we need to about our opposition.

 

[Estebonrober]

To me, when I hear "while all lives matter, all lives will never matter unless black lives matter". I take that as, screw the white lives, screw the asian lives, screw [insert ethnic group here] lives. And given seeing Twitter clips of what happened at Bethesda where there was a group of people sitting on the ground and chanting as if they were in a cult. I'm not going to lie, but that sort of creeps me out. And if it's a very large tent, it needs a new name if they're including all oppressed minorities .


Really now? I suppose I will put you up for a challenge then....if a new thread is created to challenge the misconceptions of intersectionalism, especially on the connontations of it being "oppression Olympics" and "cultural Marxism". Though I'll start with an appetizer for you (Ignore that it's from Prager U, just dissect it's parts). As for cancel culture, I'm sure that would be touched upon in a different thread, but I feel that it should be......eliminated since It's done nothing but harm to the person on the receiving end of canceling. Loss of job, harassment. Even if the person is genuinely repentant, the woke mob won't want any of it as he's deemed an unperson. In a nutshell, there's no forgiveness.


It does not feel right to to enact revenge against a random stranger not of my race just because the person of the other race did horrible things to my people in the distant past or ancient past.


I was not expecting that. I was expecting the use of SJW would be kryptonite to the average snowflake causing them to run to their safe space.

I get the outsider's view on the term BLM, but at this point its been explained. This law professor explains it far better than I ever could. . .

Premise: There is an invisible “only” in front of the words “Black Lives Matter.”
Critique: There is a difference between focus and exclusion. If something matters, this does not imply that nothing else does. If l say “Law Students Matter” it does not imply that my colleagues, friends, and family do not. Here is something else that matters: context. The Black Lives Matter movement arose in a context of evidence that they don’t. When people are receiving messages from the culture in which they live that their lives are less important than other lives, it is a cruel distortion of reality to scold them for not being inclusive enough.
As applied specifically to the context in which I wore my Black Lives Matter shirt, I did this on a day in Criminal Procedure when we were explicitly discussing violence against the black community by police.
There are some implicit words that precede “Black Lives Matter,” and they go something like this:
Because of the brutalizing and killing of black people at the hands of the police and the indifference of society in general and the criminal justice system in particular. It is important that we say that…
This is, of course, far too long to fit on a shirt.
Black Lives Matter is about focus, not exclusion. As a general matter, seeing the world and the people in it in mutually exclusive, either/or terms impedes your own thought processes. If you wish to bear that intellectual consequence of a constricting ideology, that’s your decision. But this does not entitle you to project your either/or ideology onto people who do not share it.

https://www.pajiba.com/miscellaneou...oDAwO0RQhSF4N7O0gQEnwIQ#.XvVTS9K11B4.facebook

I'm not an expert on intersectionality so if you wan tot start a thread on it delving into its tenants and such I would participate but could not be its main advocate. I have read on it a bit mainly about its origins which seemed quite reasonable, but I default to compassion when possible.

Sure I get that, that was my position for 25 years. Then I thought about how I would feel walking past a a statue of a confederate general to bail out a brother who was wrongfully arrested. . . That would be difficult to tolerate.

I'm proud to be a Social Justice Warrior. We all should be, social justice should be something we all fight for, I thought as Americans it was one thing we could agree on even if we disagree on what that means exactly. Anyways, yes I'm a leftist in the current environment in the US. I'd be a centrist just about anywhere else in the western world.

 

[El_Machinae]

To me, when I hear "while all lives matter, all lives will never matter unless black lives matter". I take that as, screw the white lives, screw the asian lives, screw [insert ethnic group here] lives.

I dunno, I've seen active embracing of any disadvantaged group into the BLM movement. Heck, I've seen people actively embrace "BLM is trying to save police officer lives, because we're trying to end the conditions that end up putting their lives in danger!"

The sentiment "all lives will never matter until black lives matter" means that (a) institutions designed to stop police from killing black people will protect other people as well (and maybe even in greater total numbers) and (b) if people aren't actively trying to prevent black people from being killed by the police, then it's clear that (to that person) "all lives" doesn't mean "black lives".

Remember, BLM is not actually about black people dying. It started as concern about black people being unjustly killed by the police.

 

[Gorbles]

It does not feel right to to enact revenge against a random stranger not of my race just because the person of the other race did horrible things to my people in the distant past or ancient past.

Nothing about the US qualifies as ancient history, and things like slavery and other forms of institutional racism barely even qualify as "distant".

I thought you'd, by your (semi-recent) own admittance, been through some kind of escaping alt-right territory kind of thing? Why are you now chaining together "antifa", "racist blacks", "cancel culture", and links to PragerU?

It's confusing to me mainly because your argument itself is becoming incoherent as a result - I know this is an RD thread, but I'm being genuine. It's concerning.

 

[Lexicus]

Good luck with that; with Antifa terrorizing innocent bystanders, rampid cancel culture just because you don't bow down to their intersectionalist religion, racist blacks abusing it for their own end going after whites minding their own businesses. Right now, I just see BLM as the largest riot in US history.

Die mad about it then

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/06/09/floyd-protests-have-changed-public-opinion-about-race-policing-heres-data

It does not feel right to to enact revenge against a random stranger not of my race just because the person of the other race did horrible things to my people in the distant past or ancient past.

I think this is the funniest aspect of this whole discussion. Reactionaries will call Jim Crow "the distant past or the ancient past" and then turn around and say without any trace of irony that the modern world was shaped by the Battle of Marathon

 

[NinjaCow64]

Personally they've got a ways to go. Ideally, to garner support, they've gotta cut out the demonization of whites, humiliating whites,

What? The overwhelming majority (>99%) of people haven't been doing that.

and denounce the mob tearing down statues (Chiefly, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, U.S. Grant, known abolitionists).

All three of those people owned slaves. Jefferson owned over 600 slaves and was notorious for forcing himself upon his slaves in a sexual way (I'm not sure I can say the word I want to say to describe this act on CFC, but you should get what I am saying). Washington owned over 300 slaves. While they might have said that they were anti-slavery, they are and were utter hypocrites because they owned slaves and benefited from owning them and made no real effort to free their own slaves or outlaw the practice. I know less about Grant but I can't imagine he was a super good fluffy rainbow man.

If their goal of an egalitarian society is punching down whites and making them second class citizens as retribution for past misdeeds our ancestors made, I want no part of it as that's not egalitarianism in my eyes.

Basically nobody is advocating for making white people second class citizens! Where in Hell are you getting your information from? Fox News? Breitbart?

 

[El_Machinae]

So it's not all about defunding the police so that's defanged nor abolishing the police? I honestly thought it was some anti-white, anarchist/communist movement seeking to create a world like 1984 and Fahrenheit 451.

"Defunding the police" is this weird little catchphrase that something like 40% of people just understood as soon as they heard it and 40% of people actively misconstrued it.

There's a recognition that we're using police to do the wrong job, and that's creating a lot of unnecessary damage. Right now we're using police to (a) handle the mentally ill, (b) handle homelessness, and (c) deal with the criminal consequences of a lack of social investment. But when you give people weapons and then tell them to go into dangerous situations ... people get hurt. Over-policing doesn't solve more problems than it creates, at least not in any way that's more efficient than alternatives.

This is a very personal movement for me: I am absolutely dripping in privilege, but a lot of my work involves helping the mentally ill. And, because we serially bungle helping the mentally ill, there are many instances where police are used to 'handle' it. There's a lot of unnecessary violence and a lot of unnecessary suffering. I'm very lucky, because the 'defund' movement very nicely fits in line with what I need to help the people I work with.

We mistreat the mentally ill so severely that I didn't even report it when I got randomly assaulted on the street once, because there's no way I'd subject a human being (living on the street) to the 'help' that the police and the forensic system bring.

 

[Gorbles]

It's an example I gave as of "Is this what the video I saw really what Intersectionality is about or just a bunch of crap".

And if that's your go-to example, you're not as out of the alt-right loop as you perhaps wanted to be. PragerU, by a neutral description (Wikipedia, but that will be from somewhere as Wiki is never a primary source), provides (specifically American) conservative and right-wing views. How can you expect a take by them on intersectionality be anything but bunk?

It's in their inherent interest to push back on such a concept.

They exist, Do they not?

Racists exist. You choosing to highlight "racist blacks" is an unnecessary focus.

"antifa", at least by the meaning attributed to it as a conservative boogeyman, does not exist. It's the demonisation of being antifascist. Opposing fascism is never bad, and you don't have to see Nazis "under your bed" to believe in such. There are plenty modern examples of the ideology.

"cancel culture", again, is a conservative buzzphrase that is attempting to demonise actions having consequences. It isn't applied equally. Some consequences - as we've seen argued in this thread r.e. defense of police behaviour - are apparently okay. It's only consequences of discrimination that seems to count for "cancel culture", and even then doesn't appear to stop "cancelled" individuals pursuing right-wing media platforms to amplify their "cancelled" opinions.

 

[Lexicus]

Care to go about it without resorting to ad hominems?

Nah, not really. Just wanted to show that according to the data, BLM is actually having the opposite effect on public opinion to what you claimed, and to gloat about it a bit.

I know less about Grant but I can't imagine he was a super good fluffy rainbow man.

I think tearing down Grant's statue is a dumb move but it's not like it's that big a big deal. Anyone who cares more about a statue than about police brutality against actual living humans is either a moron or a fascist.

 

[NinjaCow64]

Sadly the phrase itself from the far leftists is deemed a racist dogwistle. I'm more in favor for All Lives Matter.

Good luck with that; with Antifa terrorizing innocent bystanders,

This isn't actually happening. Again - where are you hearing this nonsense from?

rampid cancel culture just because you don't bow down to their intersectionalist religion

It doesn't work like that! Most people who get cancelled are rich celebrities and they usually don't even lose that much when they do get cancelled!

racist blacks abusing it for their own end going after whites minding their own businesses.

Jesus man, this isn't happening!

To me, when I hear "while all lives matter, all lives will never matter unless black lives matter". I take that as, screw the white lives, screw the asian lives, screw [insert ethnic group here] lives. And given seeing Twitter clips of what happened at Bethesda where there was a group of people sitting on the ground and chanting as if they were in a cult. I'm not going to lie, but that sort of creeps me out. And if it's a very large tent, it needs a new name if they're including all oppressed minorities .

Holy crap. I remember when you told me you weren't going to engage with the Alt-Right anymore and now here you are, just parroting out Alt-Right talking points. Words cannot express how utterly hurt and disappointed I am to see someone I consider a friend going down this horrendous path. Please don't do this.