German politics thread

[Winner]

I would be in favor of such an amendment. The way, the parliament gets dissolved now is imho a complete joke. Schröder has a majority. Period. I'd lmao if Köhler or the Supreme Court decided to reject early elections.

You think one more year of Schröeder's gov. will be more than a waste of time?

 

[Longasc]

I am with kronic. This is an unlawful political maneuver.

The SPD was losing too many elections and members, voters... the chancellor took a gamble, and he gained popularity with his latest speeches.

I would not trust a party who suddenly goes for popularity by raising taxes for the rich and stuff like that. They could already do or at least try that even without new elections.


IMO, Schröder / the SPD think they have more chances if they promise a lot and have elections soon. If they win, they have basically destroyed the CDU. Chances are small, but they try to make the best of a bad situation by taking the bull by the horns.


I also think that one more year Schröder is one too much, but abusing the Vertrauensfrage for an IMO political maneuver is against the law. Well, be it socialists, national socialists and whatever, they always cause a big mess and do not care about the law anyway.

Vote me. If I get elected, I will make it mandatory for Prussians to wear Pickelhauben and Bavarians to wear Lederhosen. Everyone mixing up Bavarians and Franconians will be sent into exile to Austria.

I tell you, four more years SPD and I no longer must play "Fallout" on my laptop...

 

[Adler17]

Schröder´s way might not be totally within the spirit of the constitution and I also think an amendment would be the best solution, however his actions are still within the constitution. IMO no one, neither president Köhler nor the constitutional court will stop that. However the constitution should be amended to end these theatres.
Concerning the 5%: IMO this clause is an important one. Weimar as well as states like Italy and Israel have/ had the problems of governments being not very long lasting. In Italy no government served the full time. More parties mean more trouble. The bigger the coalition the more problems exist the more of a program has to be altered. Also recent 3 party coalitions all failed: Red- yellow- green as well as Black- yellow- Schill.

Adler

 

[ComradeDavo]

Gentlemen, please - this is supposed to be the:

German politics thread

May I suggest that you create a new thread for a full
and frank exchange of views on Margaret Thatcher?

Given that Merkel is reffered to as a 'german Thatcher' and has similar politics and so on, i think it is valid to discuss Thatcher in this thread.

 

[ComradeDavo]

I was reading about the SDP's idea to rise taxes on the rich - any idea if this will help win back the left-wing vote for them?

 

[E-Raser]

I was reading about the SDP's idea to rise taxes on the rich - any idea if this will help win back the left-wing vote for them?

I doubt it. There is a more reddish opportunity rising. While SPD has forgotten who has risen them into power and Schroeder went "Genosse der Bosse" they'll pay the bill now.

 

[Richard Cribb]

What do you think/hope will be the outcome of the (possible) election?

A victory for CDU I guess.

Can anyone really seriously imagine Angela Merkel as chancellor?

Yes and it is not a good thing. Being a Norwegian and considering the Norwegian prime minister I can imagine absolutely anybody in leadership though.

Germany needs a revival of real socialistic traits.

Yes, like the rest of Europe!

Not at all. Politicans like Merkel and Westerwelle, unforunately Schröder as well- do not care about their resonsibility about the working class.

I agree, and I could say the same about the Norwegian "Labour" Party. Like so many other, Schröder has forgotten where he came from.

[Our "Volksvertreter" do not "das Volk vertreten". They bow down in front of the companies. The only way to get rid of this disbalance is a socialistic attempt of a more fair sharing of the ressources and the wealth that is achieved by the working people.

What we need at the moment in German is a Thatcherist policy, with radical reforms and a cut on excessive welfare and social programs. Germany is in a deep economical crisis, and the only way to recover at the moment is through tough reforming, not by drawing up a socialist program.

Oh no!
I have the greatest respect for your intellectual and moral qualities, and I hope this is a result of lack of knowledge about her and what she really represented.
No country needs or deserves thatcherism. Thatcher was a catastrophe for the British working class and the poor, and she also had a negative impoverishing impact on the intellectual political climate in the whole Europe, being a foremost exponent of the TINA
dogma, something we are only starting to recover from right now.if somebody is interested, I can always dig up some material about this.
And about reforms. First of all it is, admittedly quite commonly used , Orwellian newspeech to call it reforms when you slash welfare and take away from people rights they have achieved through popular struggle , thereby making life more difficult for those who already suffers hardship, increasing ineqaulity and tilting the power balance in society further .
Secondly, in times of crises(If there really is one then. As long as I have lived I seem to have the impression that political and economical elites, which has an alarming tendency to intermingle, have always been talking about crises and the need of sacrifice and moderation by anybody except themselves), one should first and foremost demand sacrifices by those with backs strong enough to bear it. For decades now, the corporate elites has been gaining advantages on labour. The time for a change in that is long time overdue. Start doing something with wealthfare instead.

And yet, she was ultimately the one who made the UK leave behind it's "second-class nation" status that it had before she took over. The UK was actually one of the poorest nations of Western Europe, now it is among the richest. New Labour kept many traits of the thatcherist reforms.

As I said, even the good things that she did hurted in the short term. By deregulating the economy unemployement increased, real wages fell, ect. But in the medium term unemployed fell dramatically and real wages went up. While I condemn her brutality towards workers, fact is the British Unions were Mafias with disproportional power, that were keeping the nation in a terrible condition.

I'm not saying that you should like Thatcher, but I think you should look at her term with a more broad perpesctive.

You are completely right about the ideological connection between New Labour or rather "New" "Labour" and Thatcher( a good characteristic of Tony Blair is Thatcher without a handbag ), but I must say that I take offense of that characteristique which I bolded, and I would like to see a credible reference to comparing trade unions with the Mafia.
About disproportional representation, I can hardly see any more staggering example on that than the one of capital owners.

And finally on topic: I don't know the programs of the German political parties well enough, but I would vote for a party which would instigate reforms (more power to the people, less to corporations) and not "reforms". From what I have read on this thread, that I would be ending up on E-Rasers choice.

 

[ThERat]

Everyone mixing up Bavarians and Franconians will be sent into exile to Austria.

I will vote for you then, since I hated it when people mistook me for a Barbarian, err I mean Bavarian

 

[Vilati Timmadar]

A government that resigns like Schroeders does not deserve to be re-elected.

A group of illusionists like the Linkspartei must not rule Germany. Their methods are even older than those of the SPD and they have no concept to revive the economy here. And their top-candidates are untrustworthy: Gysi makes politics when he likes and was a senator in Berlin only for two years - he used his first "affair" (the Bonus-Meilen-Story) to leave office.
And Lafontaine is a joke - he was minister of finances for a couple of months and then he lost interest and went home, only to come up with populism...now he's combining nationalism and socialism in his arguments...well, worked 70 years ago, why not try now one might think, hm??!!!

It seems to me that the CDU is our last hope. If they fail, soon there will be a "Konservative Wahlalternative" and we will have six parties struggling for dominance. Yeah - that sounds reaaaaally good...

 

[Richard Cribb]

And Lafontaine is a joke - he was minister of finances for a couple of months and then he lost interest and went home, only to come up with populism...

I don't know who is the joke really.
To me he seemed to be the only decent person in that cabinet and his fault was not being corporate friendly enough. But by all means, if I am mistaken, educate me.

now he's combining nationalism and socialism in his arguments...well, worked 70 years ago, why not try now one might think, hm??!!!

With this you seem to be implying two outrageous things.
1. That Lafontaine is some sort of nazi/fascist.
2. That NSDAP was a socialistic party.

Talking about jokes, I really hope that those are not serious suggestions from your part.

 

[Heffalump]

I'm an American, but have lived considerable years abroad (both in the UK and here in Germany) and can perhaps add an interesting perspective to the debate.

The current government doesn't deserve to be re-elected and it would be a disaster if it occurred. First, the SPD is deeply divided over the course of reforms here. Second, the opposition has control over the second chamber in parliament, the Bundesrat, which gives them an effective veto. These facts put them in a weak position, and weak governments don't make the sort of drastic reforms that Germany needs.

The opposition CDU will certainly win the election and will be well placed to push through some tough reforms. But I have my doubts. I don't see Merkel as a particularly strong leader, but at least we can hope.

Meanwhile the Germans cling with stubborn determination to their old social welfare models. They often point to the hire/fire AngloSaxon economies with a sense of fear which I find a little bit ironic because I worry about my job more here than I did anywhere else! In the US jobs were like fish in the ocean. I never cared if one went away because so many more alternatives were out there. That is not the case here.

The failing, overregulated labor market isn't the only problem Germany has however. The other great problem is demographic. Too many old people, too few kids. Changing that will be even harder.

Sad to say, I'm a little bit pessimistic about Germany. They will one day bounce back, but not before a few long, hard decades as the sick man of Europe, much like Britain was for a long while.

 

[Winner]

I'm an American, but have lived considerable years abroad (both in the UK and here in Germany) and can perhaps add an interesting perspective to the debate.

The current government doesn't deserve to be re-elected and it would be a disaster if it occurred. First, the SPD is deeply divided over the course of reforms here. Second, the opposition has control over the second chamber in parliament, the Bundesrat, which gives them an effective veto. These facts put them in a weak position, and weak governments don't make the sort of drastic reforms that Germany needs.

The opposition CDU will certainly win the election and will be well placed to push through some tough reforms. But I have my doubts. I don't see Merkel as a particularly strong leader, but at least we can hope.

Meanwhile the Germans cling with stubborn determination to their old social welfare models. They often point to the hire/fire AngloSaxon economies with a sense of fear which I find a little bit ironic because I worry about my job more here than I did anywhere else! In the US jobs were like fish in the ocean. I never cared if one went away because so many more alternatives were out there. That is not the case here.

The failing, overregulated labor market isn't the only problem Germany has however. The other great problem is demographic. Too many old people, too few kids. Changing that will be even harder.

Sad to say, I'm a little bit pessimistic about Germany. They will one day bounce back, but not before a few long, hard decades as the sick man of Europe, much like Britain was for a long while.

Very good post

 

[luiz]

You are completely right about the ideological connection between New Labour or rather "New" "Labour" and Thatcher( a good characteristic of Tony Blair is Thatcher without a handbag ), but I must say that I take offense of that characteristique which I bolded, and I would like to see a credible reference to comparing trade unions with the Mafia.
About disproportional representation, I can hardly see any more staggering example on that than the one of capital owners.

I didn't mean to compare all trade unions with Mafias, just the british ones of that time.

 

[Ciceronian]

Oh no!
I have the greatest respect for your intellectual and moral qualities, and I hope this is a result of lack of knowledge about her and what she really represented.
No country needs or deserves thatcherism. Thatcher was a catastrophe for the British working class and the poor, and she also had a negative impoverishing impact on the intellectual political climate in the whole Europe, being a foremost exponent of the TINA
dogma, something we are only starting to recover from right now.if somebody is interested, I can always dig up some material about this.
And about reforms. First of all it is, admittedly quite commonly used , Orwellian newspeech to call it reforms when you slash welfare and take away from people rights they have achieved through popular struggle , thereby making life more difficult for those who already suffers hardship, increasing ineqaulity and tilting the power balance in society further .
Secondly, in times of crises(If there really is one then. As long as I have lived I seem to have the impression that political and economical elites, which has an alarming tendency to intermingle, have always been talking about crises and the need of sacrifice and moderation by anybody except themselves), one should first and foremost demand sacrifices by those with backs strong enough to bear it. For decades now, the corporate elites has been gaining advantages on labour. The time for a change in that is long time overdue. Start doing something with wealthfare instead.

Allright, I think I was slightly misunderstood.
My use of the word "Thatcherism" was perhaps slightly inappropriate, and I admit I threw it in to polarize a bit. My underlying idea is that we need reforms quickly, and some of these reforms are gonna hurt in the short term, there's no way to avoid that.
People in Germany have become too complacent and believe they have a right to afford luxuries without doing anything. Furthermore, many structures and systems are antiquated and dysfunctional, and we need some reforms, which I believe will be brought about by the CDU.

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

Vote me. If I get elected, I will make it mandatory for Prussians to wear Pickelhauben and Bavarians to wear Lederhosen. Everyone mixing up Bavarians and Franconians will be sent into exile to Austria.

You have my vote. Especially since this means I'll have NRW for myself in no time (and Austria gets 15 million more inhabitants).
But seriously, I would even vote for Stoiber atm.
Schröder is pointless; the SPD is a lost case for now, and the Bundesrat situation prevents him from doing anything.
Merkel...ouch. I really cannot stand her. As much as I can stand anyone who agreed with Kohl (that doesn't necessarily mean the whole CDU).
About the only coalition I could be happy with would be a CDU-Green one. Would complement pretty nicely - foreign, consumers/ agriculture, and environment issues run by the very same ministers as now, plus capable social and financial/economical politicians.

But as it seems...we're much more likely to keep the desastrous SPD ministers instead, under CDU leadership. The real worst case scenario...Münte and Clement and Ulla Schmidt and Merkel .
*Sigh*. Never have been so unsure what to vote as now.

 

[Shevek]

Meanwhile the Germans cling with stubborn determination to their old social welfare models. They often point to the hire/fire AngloSaxon economies with a sense of fear which I find a little bit ironic because I worry about my job more here than I did anywhere else! In the US jobs were like fish in the ocean. I never cared if one went away because so many more alternatives were out there. That is not the case here.

Yes, that is one of the difficulties and probably hard to be understood by someone who has never had both experiences.
I left Germany because I could not find a job even though I have decent qualification.
I work now in London. Yes, I have been fired more than once (and that was quite easy for the employer) but I know I will find the next job soon if I really put efford into it. Back in Germany I always was for more rights for the worker. Now I see that it is not necessarily in the workers interest.
Quite a paradox and certainly sad, really.

I have no idea whom I will be voting for. My first inclination is always to go left. But Germany needs reforms. And I cannot see much on offer there really on the left.
Maybe SPD needs to be given time to continue what they started?
My friends in Germany all hate the reforms and are very upset about it.

I just really don't know what and who would be best for Germany and its people.

 

[Longasc]

Heffalump has a point, and I think the future is really not bright for Germany.

While all agree that reforms are necessary, the last try labeled Agenda 2010 was widely rejected, even despised by most people.

I do not want to discuss if it was a good or bad agenda... the problem is just that nearly all suggestions for possible reforms are rejected, people want everything to stay as it is. Nobody wants to pay more, get less social benefits and whatever.

In addition to that, many reform plans are just bad!!!

The problem is, we need reforms, but a proper ones. But nobody could find a solution a majority could agree on.


I am waiting for the party that manages to suggest some reforms the German people can and will really support!

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

I left Germany because I could not find a job even though I have decent qualification.

But, with a decent qualification you have a nice chance to find a job in Germany as well anyway. That is, as long as you're younger than say 45. What really went wrong with the German job situation is the fact that for younger employees the hire&fire thing is already in place since several years. Even for academics - their jobs are often enough labelled as internship for that reason. Or, in public jobs, you mandatory get fired before you're employed for 5 years in a row, since otherwise they'd have to give you a longterm contract . Usually, they'll hire you again after 3 months.
OTOH, it is incredibly difficult to "get rid" of older employees (even worse, older + longterm ones).

The result of that desastrous policy is:

The Young live in full uncertainity - thus they do not found families. It's no problem to fire a father of several small children.

The Old are either safe from getting fired - or, if their company went done, safe from finding a new job ever...

So, the real issue in Germany is not the economy in my eyes. It's the relationship between generations. The whole system of 'the older you are, the more you earn, the safer your job - regardless of qualification' poisons everything here.
However, with the majority of voters above 60, this won't change.

 

[kronic]

I do not want to discuss if it was a good or bad agenda... the problem is just that nearly all suggestions for possible reforms are rejected, people want everything to stay as it is. Nobody wants to pay more, get less social benefits and whatever.

In addition to that, many reform plans are just bad!!!

The problem is, we need reforms, but a proper ones. But nobody could find a solution a majority could agree on.

Makes me wonder why everyone suddenly wants to vote CDU.

Sad to say, I'm a little bit pessimistic about Germany. They will one day bounce back, but not before a few long, hard decades as the sick man of Europe, much like Britain was for a long while.

I don't think we will "bounce back" one day. All long term projections regarding Germany are very bad. The problem is not so much our current economic situation. That is somehting that can be solved in one or the other way. (Despite the economic woes, the standard of living for the masses is still comparatively high.) The real problem is the demographic situation. If nothing changes, we're doomed. And it's not really comforting to know, that many European countries share the same problem.

 

[ComradeDavo]

Can someone give me a quick run down on the German Green party's policies?