German politics thread

[kronic]

Pretty much a liberal party with environmental awareness these days...

Economically between SPD and CDU and socially the most liberal of all established parties.

 

[ComradeDavo]

I like the sound of that social liberalness but not so much the economics.

Quite economically different from the British green party then, who are somewhat socialist!

 

[E-Raser]

I think one main problem is the interior market. Although we're export world champion inside Germany nothing os sold anymore. That people do not buy is mainly because of the following reasons:
- people do not have money- living from Harz IV is almost impossible. How to think about a new TV?
- people are uncertain about their future. Everyone is afraid about loosing job- the need of teeth cure - anyway: Better to save for bad times than to buy a new car.

In order to break this very careful intention of the customers people must be more certain about their future and also earn enough to cope with the risen prices. Exspecially energy is as expensive as never. Teeth prothetic is almost unaffordable and so on and so forth.
But on the contrary companies are making benefits better than ever. And they do not invest in new labout, vice versa.
Enough!
Get the money from where it is instead of making those who are anyway close to the border bleed even more. Raising taxes for workers? They are already ping more than good for economy. Even H. Ford, who was not about to be blamed a socialist was paing his workers very well. Guess why? Bacause it would be useless making them prodce goods they can not afford themselfs.

People have fought revolutions to fight the nobels exploiting them. Just to see them replaced by politicians and managers stepping in their footprints?
If the disbalance between the ordinary and the rich grows bigger and bigger it'll once explode into another revolution. Exspecially as the 'inbetween' grows poorer and bleeds out.
'Shareholder value' is in fact the God the econemy prays to only and there's no idea left about the responsibility which is connected with property.
I want a solidary society and not on where everyone has to care from himself- get along or die. We're humans and we have a responsibility for our next. If he can not lift his load we should help him. If you think different stop calling yourself Christina, ok?

The only solution to get out of this trap is to make the companies pay instead of the workers, we must pay the workers according to their needs and than finally make them sure that tomorrow they will still have a job.
Than and only than they'll start to spend money again and the market will recover.

It is time for a socialistic movement not only in/for Germany.

Proletarians of all the nations- unite!!!

And one thing no0one should forget:
If Merkel had been chancelless German soldier would fight also in the illeagal war inside Iraq!
She was the firest to kiss GWB **** after Schroeder said no.
Agree Schroeder was not the perfect chancellor but this he did VERY well!
Angy is a big NONO!
Merkelt mal was!!!
CDU will never perform 'Blokadepolitik: :rofl:

 

[Winner]

I think one main problem is the interior market. Although we're export world champion inside Germany nothing os sold anymore. That people do not buy is mainly because of the following reasons:
- people do not have money- living from Harz IV is almost impossible. How to think about a new TV?
- people are uncertain about their future. Everyone is afraid about loosing job- the need of teeth cure - anyway: Better to save for bad times than to buy a new car.

In order to break this very careful intention of the customers people must be more certain about their future and also earn enough to cope with the risen prices. Exspecially energy is as expensive as never. Teeth prothetic is almost unaffordable and so on and so forth.
But on the contrary companies are making benefits better than ever. And they do not invest in new labout, vice versa.
Enough!
Get the money from where it is instead of making those who are anyway close to the border bleed even more. Raising taxes for workers? They are already ping more than good for economy. Even H. Ford, who was not about to be blamed a socialist was paing his workers very well. Guess why? Bacause it would be useless making them prodce goods they can not afford themselfs.

People have fought revolutions to fight the nobels exploiting them. Just to see them replaced by politicians and managers stepping in their footprints?
If the disbalance between the ordinary and the rich grows bigger and bigger it'll once explode into another revolution. Exspecially as the 'inbetween' grows poorer and bleeds out.
'Shareholder value' is in fact the God the econemy prays to only and there's no idea left about the responsibility which is connected with property.
I want a solidary society and not on where everyone has to care from himself- get along or die. We're humans and we have a responsibility for our next. If he can not lift his load we should help him. If you think different stop calling yourself Christina, ok?

The only solution to get out of this trap is to make the companies pay instead of the workers, we must pay the workers according to their needs and than finally make them sure that tomorrow they will still have a job.
Than and only than they'll start to spend money again and the market will recover.

It is time for a socialistic movement not only in/for Germany.

Proletarians of all the nations- unite!!!

And one thing no0one should forget:
If Merkel had been chancelless German soldier would fight also in the illeagal war inside Iraq!
She was the firest to kiss GWB **** after Schroeder said no.
Agree Schroeder was not the perfect chancellor but this he did VERY well!
Angy is a big NONO!
Merkelt mal was!!!
CDU will never perform 'Blokadepolitik: :rofl:

My non-existent God. If the majority of Germans share your views, I understand why is German economy in trouble

(on the other side, yes, increase corporate taxes. Your companies will be welcomed here to provide jobs and pay lower taxes to the Czech money chest )

 

[kronic]

I like the sound of that social liberalness but not so much the economics.

Quite economically different from the British green party then, who are somewhat socialist!

Some people may wonder why the Greens in Germany are that successful. After all, they are the biggest and most influential Green party in the world. Well, the reason is, that they made the transformation into a normal party that can appeal to the centre of the electorate. It's not pure chance, that the Greens have today the richest voters on average!

The German Greens have their roots in the peace and anti nuclear energy movements. They started with grassroots democracy and had indeed very left wing policies, and were fighting against the established parties. It's sometimes really fun to watch older debates of the Bundestag (they made it first into the Bundestag in 1983), where they were dressed like hippies and were treated like scum.

The early history of the party was dominated by the conflict between the so called fundamentalists (Fundis) and realists (Realos). The latter wanted to change the party, make it ready for coalition in order to get into power. And the Realos succeeded. This is probably the decisive step that distinguishes the German Greens from other Green parties in the world.

The generation of '68 was very power hungry. They wanted to get into power at all costs (despite starting as left wing radicals). Schröder, Fischer and most of the leading Greens were members of the this generation. And for some reason, the Fischer gang managed to seize control of the Green party. He was the first Green minister (in Hesse) and has been the hidden party chairman for two decades now (although never been elected). Of course, Cohn-Bendit, you may know him, is a big Fischer buddy.

Under the influence of the Fischer gang the Greens opened themselves for a coalition with the SPD. And when the generation of 68, which is still controlling the party, is gone, the Greens will very likely be available for coalitions with the CDU (that's already discussed here and there). You see, the Greens are probably the German party that has changed the most over the past 20 years. They sacrificed a lot of positions and principles.

Nevertheless, one can't say, that the Greens didn't influence the political landscape/the society. They are rather irrelevant ecomically. You can see that in the economic policies of the current government. These are made by the SPD and the Greens have to agree or Schröder will throw them out. But they influenced the social climate and policies. Germany has imho become much more socially liberal in the last years/decades, even the Conservatives. That was absolutely vital though, given the stuffy atmosphere in the early FRG. Also, most people are aware of certain environmental issues and so are the parties...

Ironically, the Greens, the former pacifists, urged Germany to give up her restraints on warfare and found the support of the majority of the population (but caused a deep crisis of the party that led to many defections). In 1999, Germany took part of the Kosovo war. That's something that was unthinkable in earlier years and a CDU led government probably couldn't have gained enough support.

They still have some special policies, mostly concerning the environment, but overall they are increasingly becoming a normal party. Their party conferences are fun to watch though. They are comparably controversial and the leadership often has to face much opposition. The inner-party democracy is still stronger than in any other party.

The German liberalism has been traditionally split into a left wing and a right wing branch. For a short period (1949-80/90), both branches were unified in the FDP. But the FDP is (fortunately ) a declining party and with the rise of the Greens the liberals are split again. The Greens are now the lefties (focused on social liberalism), and the FDP are the righties (focused on economic liberalism). The FDP has problems to get above the 5 % these days, and maybe the Greens will succeed the FDP one day or push it into irrelevance. Now, that would be great! Maybe we'll be able to celebrate that as the greateast achievement of Green policies.

 

[E-Raser]

My non-existent God. If the majority of Germans share your views, I understand why is German economy in trouble

(on the other side, yes, increase corporate taxes. Your companies will be welcomed here to provide jobs and pay lower taxes to the Czech money chest )

This is simply because socialsim would only work world wide. This is anyway clear. And nother thing would be to take taxes on the imported goods from low-labour countruies like Czech.
If companies try to avoid this way- force them another way.
May be the first decades you'll profit from putting yourself as a willfaring slave to companies. On the long run you won't.v If you would make companies pay probaly, you wouldn't be in the need of EU money as much but could manage much more of your own. But in fact Germany (among others) is feeding the snakes with its own breasts.
There must be a EU wide minimum wage of labour and a EU wide minimum tax for companies to make the competition inside EU impossible. This only helps the companies- and as ususal the workers pay the bill.

But I am sure you'll be surprised in september how many are sharing this ideas.

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

the Greens will very likely be available for coalitions with the CDU

In fact, that is already the case on regional base. Exactly in such places where the local SPD disqualifies for being backwards labor union* lackeys or corrupt. Prime example is the city of Cologne. And even in the Franconian 2k inhabitants village I originate from, there's a CSU/Green coalition in charge since 10+ years.

The modern parts of the CDU/CSU indeed have lots of common views with the Greens. However, broader coalition are only doable in areas where farmers don't matter - the traditional farmer lobbies and agrobusiness (not so much the single farmer) are very influential on the Conservatives, and are bitter archenemies to the Greens...


*: Note I'm not so much anti-welfare and pro-Free market. I just utterly hate Labor Unions. Those suckers always care only for their own members, not the society. Sounds logical? Don't forget substantial numbers of employes are not allowed to strike by decree. Like - MDs . And you really start hating the Unions when they demonstrate and strike for their 35h week in hospitals, while your worktime is about 60h...for ZERO money, since it's the final one-year internship when studying medicine. And after that you do get some small change again, but are (like nurses etc as well) not allowed to go on strike.
So, the cleaning crews and drivers and administration etc do instead. And as such, they have way better conditions than the ones who really do the job. End of rant, getting OT...

 

[E-Raser]

@ kronic
Very good post!!! Especially you views on FDP I agree a lot IMO they should themselfes get greencards and join the republicans in USA...
(their only chance to gain 18% )

 

[E-Raser]

@Doc T.
Just a question- if the docs inside the hospitals would have a trade union on their own being able to improve the working conditions for the Docs as well. May be in this case you'd welcome them more? IMO it anyway wouldn't be bad becasue I know that AIP is quite close to slavery, isn't it?

 

[ComradeDavo]

Some people may wonder why the Greens in Germany are that successful. After all, they are the biggest and most influential Green party in the world. Well, the reason is, that they made the transformation into a normal party that can appeal to the centre of the electorate. It's not pure chance, that the Greens have today the richest voters on average!

The German Greens have their roots in the peace and anti nuclear energy movements. They started with grassroots democracy and had indeed very left wing policies, and were fighting against the established parties. It's sometimes really fun to watch older debates of the Bundestag (they made it first into the Bundestag in 1983), where they were dressed like hippies and were treated like scum.

The early history of the party was dominated by the conflict between the so called fundamentalists (Fundis) and realists (Realos). The latter wanted to change the party, make it ready for coalition in order to get into power. And the Realos succeeded. This is probably the decisive step that distinguishes the German Greens from other Green parties in the world.

The generation of '68 was very power hungry. They wanted to get into power at all costs (despite starting as left wing radicals). Schröder, Fischer and most of the leading Greens were members of the this generation. And for some reason, the Fischer gang managed to seize control of the Green party. He was the first Green minister (in Hesse) and has been the hidden party chairman for two decades now (although never been elected). Of course, Cohn-Bendit, you may know him, is a big Fischer buddy.

Under the influence of the Fischer gang the Greens opened themselves for a coalition with the SPD. And when the generation of 68, which is still controlling the party, is gone, the Greens will very likely be available for coalitions with the CDU (that's already discussed here and there). You see, the Greens are probably the German party that has changed the most over the past 20 years. They sacrificed a lot of positions and principles.

Nevertheless, one can't say, that the Greens didn't influence the political landscape/the society. They are rather irrelevant ecomically. You can see that in the economic policies of the current government. These are made by the SPD and the Greens have to agree or Schröder will throw them out. But they influenced the social climate and policies. Germany has imho become much more socially liberal in the last years/decades, even the Conservatives. That was absolutely vital though, given the stuffy atmosphere in the early FRG. Also, most people are aware of certain environmental issues and so are the parties...

Ironically, the Greens, the former pacifists, urged Germany to give up her restraints on warfare and found the support of the majority of the population (but caused a deep crisis of the party that led to many defections). In 1999, Germany took part of the Kosovo war. That's something that was unthinkable in earlier years and a CDU led government probably couldn't have gained enough support.

They still have some special policies, mostly concerning the environment, but overall they are increasingly becoming a normal party. Their party conferences are fun to watch though. They are comparably controversial and the leadership often has to face much opposition. The inner-party democracy is still stronger than in any other party.

The German liberalism has been traditionally split into a left wing and a right wing branch. For a short period (1949-80/90), both branches were unified in the FDP. But the FDP is (fortunately ) a declining party and with the rise of the Greens the liberals are split again. The Greens are now the lefties (focused on social liberalism), and the FDP are the righties (focused on economic liberalism). The FDP has problems to get above the 5 % these days, and maybe the Greens will succeed the FDP one day or push it into irrelevance. Now, that would be great! Maybe we'll be able to celebrate that as the greateast achievement of Green policies.

Very good post, thanks for it

 

[Nobody]

i vote for conservatives, not because i like them and in new zealand i would never vote for them. But germany seems like a conservative country and big old angry man of the country.

 

[Doc Tsiolkovski]

@Doc T.
Just a question- if the docs inside the hospitals would have a trade union on their own being able to improve the working conditions for the Docs as well. May be in this case you'd welcome them more?

Many MDs, nurses or lab assistents are members of ver.di. The problem is that they are not allowed to strike at all, if it would have an impact on the patients...in other words, as soon as someone would notice it . And thus ver.di doesn't care about their working conditions. Not to speak of the working conditions of the students in the hospitals...

 

[E-Raser]

Many MDs, nurses or lab assistents are members of ver.di. The problem is that they are not allowed to strike at all, if it would have an impact on the patients...in other words, as soon as someone would notice it . And thus ver.di doesn't care about their working conditions. Not to speak of the working conditions of the students in the hospitals...

Well, seems to be a lack of solidarisation. If ver.di must fear to loose a lot of the medical member's fees, they certainly would get quite busy...
But this anyway strengthens my claim for a proper coverage of the workers rights. Although I not necessarily would add doctors to the proletarians I nevertheless would not exclude them

 

[Winner]

This is simply because socialsim would only work world wide.

Yes, you're right. By killing the market economy based on competition, you can achieve socialistic dictatorship. We've already tried

This is anyway clear. And nother thing would be to take taxes on the imported goods from low-labour countruies like Czech.

And thus increasing the price of consumer goods, so in other words making the life of working people even harder. That's what you want?

If companies try to avoid this way- force them another way.
May be the first decades you'll profit from putting yourself as a willfaring slave to companies. On the long run you won't.v If you would make companies pay probaly, you wouldn't be in the need of EU money as much but could manage much more of your own.

What you don'T understand is the importance of having healthy companies. If the taxes and other burdens laid on the companies are low, the companies have enough money for further investments (making jobs) and higher wages (for capable employees). But if they are constantly terrorized by the government, they don't have an excess money and that's why they won't invest (no jobs) and won't pay higher wages to the employees. So the socialist conviction that higher corporate taxes serves the people is completely wrong, in fact it is the other way round.

But in fact Germany (among others) is feeding the snakes with its own breasts.
There must be a EU wide minimum wage of labour and a EU wide minimum tax for companies to make the competition inside EU impossible. This only helps the companies- and as ususal the workers pay the bill.

For your information, corporate taxes are lowering in Czech republic for last few years, but average wage is increasing rapidly. How is that possible? It doesn't fit your socialist logic

But I am sure you'll be surprised in september how many are sharing this ideas.

Hopefully (for Germany) not. You maybe can, with enthusiastic French and Italian support, force the new members to dampen their own economies and stop competing with you (and thus kill the Europe's ability to compete in general), but I can assure you the US or China won't step back. With socialist leadership, the Europe will be completely overwhelmed in few decades by other, more economicaly reasonable powers. By insisting on your socialist utopia, you're undermining the future of us all.

 

[E-Raser]

Yes, you're right. By killing the market economy based on competition, you can achieve socialistic dictatorship. We've already tried

This is a beloved tradition to put a '=' between socialsim and dictatorship.

And thus increasing the price of consumer goods, so in other words making the life of working people even harder. That's what you want?

Only on the first view. What is the alternative? To raise the indirect taxes which means all products getting more expensive? As long as companies can double their earnings with exploiting high price markets against chaep labour markets there is something completley wrong with 'globalisation'.

What you don'T understand is the importance of having healthy companies. If the taxes and other burdens laid on the companies are low, the companies have enough money for further investments (making jobs) and higher wages (for capable employees). But if they are constantly terrorized by the government, they don't have an excess money and that's why they won't invest (no jobs) and won't pay higher wages to the employees.

If I see the bilances of many companies their gains are higher as the've ever been, so what to complain about. I never said companies should be destroyed. Vice versa. All I want is to get them back into responsiblity for the society they want to buy their products. Nothing but fair IMO. Right now they're nothing but picking the roisens out of every cake. And the workers pay the bills in fact. Do you want this?

So the socialist conviction that higher corporate taxes serves the people is completely wrong, in fact it is the other way round.

This is your pov.

For your information, corporate taxes are lowering in Czech republic for last few years, but average wage is increasing rapidly. How is that possible? It doesn't fit your socialist logic [/b]

May be bercause Chech is on the developing branch? AFAIK the number of companies setteling in Chech is increasing? So if you lower the Taxes of corse you attract even more to settle and on the first glimpse you earn more in absolute counts. Unlike Chech old EU members are not on this branch- we're mainly busy keeping the strandard we've gained until now. This are completly different situations in fact. But as long is serves neo-lib ideals it may be suitable to compare apples and pears?

Hopefully (for Germany) not. You maybe can, with enthusiastic French and Italian support, force the new members to dampen their own economies and stop competing with you (and thus kill the Europe's ability to compete in general), but I can assure you the US or China won't step back. With socialist leadership, the Europe will be completely overwhelmed in few decades by other, more economicaly reasonable powers. By insisting on your socialist utopia, you're undermining the future of us all.

First China is socialistic, aren't they? How could a socialistic country be able to compare at all following your arguments?
Concerning USA EU has the power to work with import-taxes. And so what- as long as I may buy the same goods of EU production I don't care about this anyway. I never got a sense how it may be profitable to drive porks from Poland to Portugal and make money with it. This whole nonsense must be sstopped. Including the inside EU competition as well. The must be minimum wages and taxes similar for all members.But for a chech at the presant time it is understandable to vote against...

 

[Gelion]

How could I miss this debate?

 

[Winner]

This is a beloved tradition to put a '=' between socialsim and dictatorship.

That's because the socialism as you want it inherently leads to dictatorship, simply because you want to restrict people and to increase the power of the government. Socialism in the Eastern Bloc failed only because the Western capitalist economies were far more efficient. If the Soviet Union conquered entire world and communism was everywhere, there would be nothing left for comparison. And the Orwell visions would have came true.

Only on the first view. What is the alternative? To raise the indirect taxes which means all products getting more expensive? As long as companies can double their earnings with exploiting high price markets against chaep labour markets there is something completley wrong with 'globalisation'.

What are you talking about? If some goods is produced in say Poland for a lower costs and sold in Germany for a higher profit, what's wrong with it? German costumers have cheap goods and Polish workers have a job. If you don't want to buy polish goods, you can freely choose to buy more expesive German one.
The companies have higher profits. And what the hell is wrong with that?! These money will be spent on further investments (I've already described that) and it's owners will spend their money for luxury goods and services, thus making further work opportunities.

If I see the bilances of many companies their gains are higher as the've ever been, so what to complain about. I never said companies should be destroyed. Vice versa. All I want is to get them back into responsiblity for the society they want to buy their products. Nothing but fair IMO. Right now they're nothing but picking the roisens out of every cake. And the workers pay the bills in fact. Do you want this?

Why should companies care about the welfare? That's not their responsibility, it's the gov's responsibility. If people want more welfare, okay, nothing's wrong with that, so let them pay for it themselves. But it is the other way round, they want more welfare so they steal the money from someone other by using the government. How sick this world is...

This is your pov.

That's a fact.

May be bercause Chech is on the developing branch? AFAIK the number of companies setteling in Chech is increasing? So if you lower the Taxes of corse you attract even more to settle and on the first glimpse you earn more in absolute counts. Unlike Chech old EU members are not on this branch- we're mainly busy keeping the strandard we've gained until now. This are completly different situations in fact. But as long is serves neo-lib ideals it may be suitable to compare apples and pears?

By your socialistic logic, the evil companies would have exploited poor czech workers and give them lower and lower salaries. But hey, that's not the case. Wages are increasing, because the companies can afford it.
In over-regulated economies, the taxes are so high they can hardly survive. Logically, there is no money left then for pay rises.
Well, you can't live in paradise forever. You can't keep your living standard without making any effort to work harder. If you really want your socialist utopia, look on the Denmark or Sweden and try to adopt their version of welfare state. If you suceed, it can provide fair economic growth and good living standard as well as generous welfare (HINT: these countries don't exploit their comapnies as much as you do - and I am not only talking about taxes, that would be so easy. You must get rid of your rigid labour market, read what our American friend said about hire-and-fire experience )

First China is socialistic, aren't they? How could a socialistic country be able to compare at all following your arguments?

Please read something about China before making such a ridiculous claims. China is maybe the most capitalistic country on Earth, no welfare, pensions, social security, sick leaves, it is an embodied capitalistic hell on Earth

Concerning USA EU has the power to work with import-taxes. And so what- as long as I may buy the same goods of EU production I don't care about this anyway. I never got a sense how it may be profitable to drive porks from Poland to Portugal and make money with it. This whole nonsense must be sstopped. Including the inside EU competition as well. The must be minimum wages and taxes similar for all members.But for a chech at the presant time it is understandable to vote against...

Czech, if you mind. You propose more protectionism, which is harming both sides. That's another fact.

 

[ComradeDavo]

That's because the socialism as you want it inherently leads to dictatorship, simply because you want to restrict people and to increase the power of the government. Socialism in the Eastern Bloc failed only because the Western capitalist economies were far more efficient. If the Soviet Union conquered entire world and communism was everywhere, there would be nothing left for comparison. And the Orwell visions would have came true.

You know Orwell himself was a left-winger, right?

Stop associating socialism with dictatorship Socialistic parties like the UK green party would actually see people becoming socially freer, and it could be argued that economically as many people are too constrained by hardship a more 'fair' wage system would see alot of people being able to afford things they can not now, they would in reality be alot more free!

 

[Winner]

You know Orwell himself was a left-winger, right?

Stop associating socialism with dictatorship Socialistic parties like the UK green party would actually see people becoming socially freer, and it could be argued that economically as many people are too constrained by hardship a more 'fair' wage system would see alot of people being able to afford things they can not now, they would in reality be alot more free!

I know that very well. But his version of socialism is so different from today's socialist populism...

I won't stop that, because it is true. Road to hell is always paved with good intentions. I said it countless times - I know some level of welfare is necessary to keep healthy society. What I say is that to have a welfare, we must have a healthy economy first. What our precious socialists say is, that economy doesn't matter and the welfare can be paid from taxing the rich. That's that road to hell I am talking about, because by fighting the corporations as much, you achieve nothing but wrecking of your own economy.

In fact, from what I know, I'd like Blairs version of welfare state, which has made the Britain one of the most developed country in today's EU. I don't want to follow German or French model, which has obviously failed or Scandinavian model, because that doesn't fit to situation of post-communist countries.

 

[nonconformist]

You guys are still technically in the Thrid Reich, right?