God and the paradox of rational mind

[Winner]

I've discussed with this with my believing friends, but I think it is interesting enough to start a thread about it.

Basically, Christians (and many other believers) say that you have to believe in God, if you want to go to Heaven. God won't take you in if you don't believe in Him, they say. OK, let's accept it. Unfortunately, then the whole faith doesn't have any sense:

1) God created the Universe (one way or another) and he also created us humans (one way or another).
2) He gave us rational mind, which seeks the truth through evidence, logic and facts.
3) He don't give as any hard evidence of his existence.
4) Thus to believe in God means you have to deny your very essence as a rational being. You have to believe in something without evidence, which is illogical and unreasonable.

So, why did he create us this way - why he gave us the rational mind, if it in fact distance us from Him? Or, analogously, why don't he give us any hard evidence of his existence?

Of course, there is also the cynical answer that he created us this way for fun, but that would contradict the common belief that God is righteous.

 

[GenMarshall]

In a nutshell. God gave us all free will.

 

[HannibalBarka]

I agree with you Winner (I can't believe it, I am actually agreeing with you on some thing ;-) )
Religious folks will tell you that the existance if God is evident, and you just need to open your heart and mind to "see" him, etc bla bla bla

 

[Winner]

In a nutshell. God gave us all free will.

Yet he wants to punish you for decision, that is based on pure logic? That's not the option, if you want to maintain that God is righteous.

 

[garric]

In a Christain belief, God gives everyone a chance to prove themselves, thus giving everyone the will to not.

 

[GenMarshall]

Yet he wants to punish you for decision, that is based on pure logic?

He only want to guide you to believe in him and to earn salvation. Which is why God gave us free will to believe in him and his son, Jesus Christ.

That's not the option, if you want to maintain that God is righteous.

Sorry, regardless what you say. I still see as God as a benevolent deity.

 

[Red Door]

In a nutshell. God gave us all free will.

QFT. God didn't intend for us to find about him, that would require divine knowledge, which only he has.

To believe in God, you must have faith that he exists, not hard-concrete proof. That's what Atheists don't understand about Roman Catholicism (I said Catholicism because it's the only one I know about, if any Protestants can fill some info in, that'd be great.)

 

[GenMarshall]

QFT. God didn't intend for us to find about him, that would require divine knowledge, which only he has.

To believe in God, you must have faith that he exists, not hard-concrete proof. That's what Atheists don't understand about Roman Catholicism (I said Catholicism because it's the only one I know about, if any Protestants can fill some info in, that'd be great.)

I frankly agree with that, AlCosta . Thats why I have a hard time telling atheists about my belief in God because they don't understand.

 

[Winner]

He only want to guide you to believe in him and to earn salvation. Which is why God gave us free will to believe in him and his son, Jesus Christ.

That doesn't make any sense. If he gave us rational mind, he had to know (since he is all-knowing), that it would lead us away from him. If he knew it and done it anyway, he is not righteous, because only those who fail to use their rational mind can believe in him. What sense would that make? None.

 

[ainwood]

That doesn't make any sense. If he gave us rational mind, he had to know (since he is all-knowing), that it would lead us away from him. If he knew it and done it anyway, he is not righteous, because only those who fail to use their rational mind can believe in him. What sense would that make? None.

Maybe He didn't care if people were lead away from him.

Can you know His motivations? Can you know that He demands that people believe in Him?

 

[GenMarshall]

That doesn't make any sense. If he gave us rational mind, he had to know (since he is all-knowing), that it would lead us away from him. If he knew it and done it anyway, he is not righteous, because only those who fail to use their rational mind can believe in him. What sense would that make? None.

I am sorry to say, but it makes perfict sense to me. God did not intend for us to find out about him, which requires devine knowlage which no mortal has.

Frankly, youre confusing Free Will and Predestination. Also, people who believe in God still use their rational minds. Rationality helps Christians and the religious to get closer to God. God is all-knowing, but he gave us free will to make the choice to believe in him or not. Sorry to say but God is righteous but also just.

 

[Winner]

Maybe He didn't care if people were lead away from him.

Can you know His motivations? Can you know that He demands that people believe in Him?

I can never know. I just use a simple logic to show believers, that God is either different from what they were told, or he doesn't exist at all.

 

[ainwood]

I can never know. I just use a simple logic to show believers, that God is either different from what they were told, or he doesn't exist at all.

....or that He does exist, but you are completely mistaken in your assumptions about his motivations.

 

[Winner]

I am sorry to say, but it makes perfict sense to me. God did not intend for us to find out about him, which requires devine knowlage which no mortal has.

That's the common phrase used by believers when they realize they can't logically reason their beliefs, right?

Frankly, youre confusing Free Will and Predestination. Also, people who believe in God still use their rational minds. Rationality helps Christians and the religious to get closer to God. God is all-knowing, but he gave us free will to make the choice to believe in him or not. Sorry to say but God is righteous but also just.

Where is the justice in that? If he intentionally created someone in a way that leads him to an eternal damnation and suffering, he is neither righteous nor just.

 

[Winner]

....or that He does exist, but you are completely mistaken in your assumptions about his motivations.

Christians, as far as I know, claim that God wants people to be saved. Also, I am using words like "righteous" and "just", which have a meaning defined by our religious traditions of what is right and just.

If you're right and his motivation is different, then the whole religion as a system is flawed.

 

[Red Door]

That's the common phrase used by believers when they realize they can't logically reason their beliefs, right?

No. It's the actual reasoning.

 

[Winner]

No. It's the actual reasoning.

Reasoning? Oh come on. It's useless argument, something like saying "I don't know, but I don't want to think about it because I am afraid of where it may lead me." It's completely irrelevant.

 

[Shadylookin]

if god is all loving like they say he is then you have nothing to lose by not believing in him. if he isn't all loving then you have nothing to gain from worshiping him. I guess that's the skeptics wager

there's nothing to support god's existence or that you're going anywhere when you die. For all christians know god was testing your reason and only atheists get into heaven while the blind believes go to hell for eternity .

 

[ainwood]

Christians, as far as I know, claim that God wants people to be saved. Also, I am using words like "righteous" and "just", which have a meaning defined by our religious traditions of what is right and just.

If you're right and his motivation is different, then the whole religion as a system is flawed.

Rubbish. There is a clear difference between being "righteous" and "just", and wanting people to reach a rationale conclusion via logic that He exists. Do you know His motivations?

 

[Red Door]

Reasoning? Oh come on. It's useless argument, something like saying "I don't know, but I don't want to think about it because I am afraid of where it may lead me." It's completely irrelevant.

No, it's saying that God didn't intend for us to find out, and if he did, he'd show us.

if god is all loving like they say he is then you have nothing to lose by not believing in him. if he isn't all loving then you have nothing to gain from worshiping him. I guess that's the skeptics wager

He's all loving to those who love him.

there's nothing to support god's existence or that you're going anywhere when you die. For all christians know god was testing your reason and only atheists get into heaven while the blind believes go to hell for eternity

Again, I hate repeating myself, but believing in God is about faith, not concrete-proof, which is why Atheists fail and will always fail in understanding God. But God has said that those who follow him and lead a good life will get into heaven. Blind followers who do bad things, like kill others, will go to Hell.