God and the paradox of rational mind

[DJ Bonebraker]

Here's what I've come to understand over the years from reading the Bible, and my own observations:

1, the easily observed universe, is, in fact, nothing more than a thin layer of the whole (Quatum physicists will aggree with me on this one here).... A LOT of stuff goes on outside of our perception, and that applies to both spiritual as well as mundane events.

2, Jesus (God incarnate) said, "Ask and you will recieve; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks will recieve, and anyone who seeks will find, and the door will be opened to those who knock." (Matthew 7:7-8)

3. God gave us free will, and that is something He Himself won't take from us.

4. The price for our yielding to Satan's temptation in the garden of Eden is that, while our carnal eyes were "opened" so that we could tell good from evil and evaluate and categorize things, our spiritual eyes were shut, and God distanced himself from us... He did provide a way to overcome the ultimate price of our rebellion (we could have taken ANY fruit of ANY tree in the garden, except for that one, and guess which one we hit up first.....), which is death. Through His life, death and resurrection, He paid the price FOR us, and all we have to do is believe in Him and that what he did was for us.

The conclusion I came to from those 4 points is this: Life on this planet is sort of like a giant proving ground.... God does not want slaves; he wants willing associates, so the only way he can reach out to us, without violating our free will (If God suddenly appeared in the sky, that would kind of leave no doubt watsoever as to whether He exists or not, which would take away our choice to believe in Him or not) is to provide subtle clues, as well as speaking through His prophets and when He came to Earth as Jesus.

Here's the real kicker, and what a lot of Atheists don't like to hear (mainly because it kind of calls their work ethic into question): The rest is up to us... We can't find anything if we don't seek, we can't recieve anything if we don't ask, and no doors will open if we don't knock. The clues are out there... A number of the more advanced fields of Calculus (Chaos theory) and Quatum Physics have practically proven, with very little room for doubt, that SOMEONE or some THING is running the universe. One prominent atheist said he had to give up atheism based on the data coming from these two important scientific fields, but since the data did not point to any particular god, he just said that he was now a theist (as opposed to an atheist).

That is where the final key comes in... That last bit that you need to get to where the doors really start opening and things start getting found requires a leap of faith, and one has to make the choice on one's own. It's a bit of a risky proposition to go out on a limb without absolute proof, but one that needs to be made anyways. Besides, a number of so-called scientific theories, such as the Big Bang Theory require JUST AS MUCH faith to believe in (especially since recent evidence is suggesting the opposite of the current Big Bang model.... The galaxies are actually accellerating away from each other, rather than slowing down for the Big Crunch that the theory calls for... In addition, the movements are't directly linear as the Big Bang theory would suggest).

That's just my $.02 on the issue.

 

[Winner]

Apparently you have never heard of the concept of faith.

Apparently, you don't get this.

If God made us as rational beings, why can't we understand him through logic and reasoning, why we have to simply "believe" in something what hasn't been proved?

In other words, why would he give us something, that distance us from him, provided the wants people to follow his word.

It is obvious, that this doesn't make any sense, it contradicts what believers say about God.

 

[Winner]

4 is messed up. 3 too if the 'as' is suppose to be 'us'. If that is the case, change it to 'me' also. You don't want to give up your view of what rational is. You think your view of rational is equal or better than God's. Despite the fact that you are "accepting it" for the sake of arguement in your theory.

The concept of what's rational isn't my invention.

God will give individual proof but you must sacrifice your view of rational and recognize his existance and ask for his guidance in your life. But this goes against your rationality. You must be willing to follow him if He reveals Himself to you, or else why would he bother if you are aksing for proof but will just ignore him anyways.

Again, that's not logical. If he wanted us to follow him, he would either provide us with a real, hard proof of his existence to make it OK for our rational minds to accept him, or he wouldn't have given us rational mind in the first place.

If he had created us this way only in order to fill up Hell, he is not righteous. If his motivation is different, it is not logical. The easiest (Occam razor) two answers are:

1) God exists, but he doesn't care if you believe in him or not.
2) God doesn't exist and this flaw in the religious theory is just a result of human wishful thinking.

 

[King Flevance]

The concept of what's rational isn't my invention.

No the definition of the word rational was not created by you. Yet, you hold a different viewpoint than I do as to what is rational. You think your view of rational is better than a Christian, because christian faith is irrational to you. You refuse to give up your view of rationality in your OP.

He gave humanity it's proof. As a whole. He didn't give Pete his proof, and then Bob his proof. He gave the proof to everyone at the same time. He can additionally hand you proof on a personal level. However, to do this you must abandon what you consider rational and pray to Jesus, asking for proof.

EDIT: And upon being handed this proof - abandon your rationality even more by living your life for God and not yourself.

Again, that's not logical. If he wanted us to follow him, he would either provide us with a real, hard proof of his existence to make it OK for our rational minds to accept him, or he wouldn't have given us rational mind in the first place.

He has given my rational mind proof. Many other christian's rational proof too. But you see us as irrational people. Once again YOUR example is flawed. Either all of us are rational, or just the people that think like you are.

If he had created us this way only in order to fill up Hell, he is not righteous.

We turned from him, not the other way around. He didn't create us to fill up hell. We fill up hell by our own choices. Everything you need to avoid that fate is at your disposal. It's up to you if you go to hell or not.

If a guy picks up a gun and blows his head off it is the mans fault, not the guns. Just because the power to kill you resides in the gun doesn't mean it is the gun's fault.

If his motivation is different, it is not logical.

Because your logic is better than Gods and you do not understand His?

The easiest (Occam razor) two answers are:

1) God exists, but he doesn't care if you believe in him or not.
2) God doesn't exist and this flaw in the religious theory is just a result of human wishful thinking.

1) He wants you to believe in Him and has provided humanity with proof. He gave you free will to ignore it if you wish.
2) Bogus and wishful thinking for atheists.

 

[warpus]

The conclusion I came to from those 4 points is this: Life on this planet is sort of like a giant proving ground.... God does not want slaves; he wants willing associates, so the only way he can reach out to us, without violating our free will (If God suddenly appeared in the sky, that would kind of leave no doubt watsoever as to whether He exists or not, which would take away our choice to believe in Him or not) is to provide subtle clues, as well as speaking through His prophets and when He came to Earth as Jesus.

I don't understand why such blind belief would be necessary for a deity before he/she/it would allow a relationship with lesser creatures.

That just doesn't make any sense whatsoever. If I wanted willing associates, I would not hide and hope that they can figure out my existence based on blind faith and random guesses alone.

Besides, God apparently revelead himself to plenty of people, as chronicled in teh Bible. That sort of puts a dent in your "God hides from us" theory.

If God exists he is far more likely to be impressed by our reasoning skills, not our ability to make impressive guesses about things we know nothing about.

 

[Eran of Arcadia]

That doesn't strike me as "blind" belief. It is very unusual for God to reveal Himself directly, and most will have to know Him through other ways, but that is not the same as guessing.

 

[King Flevance]

As to the willing associates, the best ones would be those that would seek truth through Him. God supports diligence and the fruits of labor. YOu forget in the Bible God revealed himself many times to people. He just hasn't for centuries now. Heck, milinniums. (sp?) So that is why the world is now going to rot at the fruit of man. We are on the homestretch now. God has effectively handed the world back over to humans from back when we thought we knew better than him and turned away from him in the garden of Eden. That issue is only half-way settled until His return.

If God exists he is far more likely to be impressed by our reasoning skills

LOL sorry to quote you warpus but this line got a chuckle from me. I highly doubt God is impressed by humanity's reasoning. Although, we humans tend to think highly of our reasoning.

 

[PrincepsAmerica]

Apparently, you don't get this.

If God made us as rational beings, why can't we understand him through logic and reasoning, why we have to simply "believe" in something what hasn't been proved?

In other words, why would he give us something, that distance us from him, provided the wants people to follow his word.

It is obvious, that this doesn't make any sense, it contradicts what believers say about God.

The simple answer, and you should know this having been a Catholic and chosen to leave the Church, that reason does not contradict the truth of God's existence. See Summa Theologica.

 

[MobBoss]

Apparently, you don't get this.

If God made us as rational beings, why can't we understand him through logic and reasoning, why we have to simply "believe" in something what hasn't been proved?

Because it is only through faith that we understand him. Even Jesus said:

10 And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?”
11 He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. 12 For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him.

People who dont have faith, just dont "get it".

Bottom line, there are things in all our lives which logic and reasoning will simply not answer....ever. We can only guess at the past and future and the many mysteries of God. There are many unanswered questions in the universe, some we will most likely never know. That is where faith steps in.

Personally, I could care less, for example, if it were actually holy fire that came down from heaven to guard Moses from Pharoah during the Exodus, or if it were merely a volcanic eruption and lava flow. Why? Because my God is more than powerful enough to display his power either way. That is sufficient for me.

 

[Chandrasekhar]

As to the willing associates, the best ones would be those that would seek truth through Him. God supports diligence and the fruits of labor. YOu forget in the Bible God revealed himself many times to people. He just hasn't for centuries now. Heck, milinniums. (sp?) So that is why the world is now going to rot at the fruit of man. We are on the homestretch now. God has effectively handed the world back over to humans from back when we thought we knew better than him and turned away from him in the garden of Eden. That issue is only half-way settled until His return.

Rotting? If God ever left us, or we ever left God, either way the world has been getting better since then. Since the scientific revolution, there have been so many advances in the quality of life, and not one of them a result of divine inspiration. We look on the people of the past, and we pity them for the terrible conditions in which they lived.

The biggest problems these days are caused by this faith that you praise so much. If God truly reveals himself to those who open themselves to them, then why is there so much unrest in the Middle East? Has God revealed himself to each of these factions and told them to fight each other? Or are each and every one of those factions just manipulating faith for an excuse to fight each other? Is your Christian God the only true one, and the thousands of faiths founded before or since Christ's birth just pale imitations?

 

[StarWorms]

Dude, now you're just being stupid. God gave us free will. Through our free will, we choose whether to be logical and rational or not. I think we can both agree that some people do not always excersize logic and rationale. Therefor God DID NOT give us those things.

If he didn't mean to give us them and they happened by accident then he did something wrong and he is therefore not all-powerful and can't see the consequences of his own actions.

As far as the evidence is concerned, I will not bother going into depth, because I know very well that you will do whatever you can to discount anything I say or simply accuse me of lying. Besides, like God, I will not tested. If you were truely seeking, I may be more apt to speak.[/QUOTE]Classic.

 

[StarWorms]

Faith is not hope.

Hope is when you want something to happen, and are gambling on chance to cause it to happen.

Faith is when you know that something is true, despite the fact that there is no real proof of it.

For example, you HOPE that you can jump the 6 meter gap. You are gambling on the chance that your body will perform as is expected for you to jump that gap.

I have FAITH that my mother will pick me up from school today, because she said she would. I have no way of proving that she will, but I know that she will.

Do you understand?

The example is completely messed up as there is evidence that she will pick you up. It's impossible to know something is true without evidence. You'd have to be extremely ignorant to think so - it's your own mind confusing you.

What the hell kind of reasoning is this? This is totally non-sequitur.
Just because he has allowed people to die, he should be doomed to enteral damnation?

Well, yes.

On that note, God created Hell, so he wouldn't go there in the first place.

So god is a hypocrite then if he doesn't take heed of his own belief/rules.

Why is it wrong to kill someone:

God gave us faith, and we took logic. Logic is cursed, and can only be used to explain things that exist in the physical world, and can never hope to understand spiritual matters, that is the realm of Faith.

That's like saying the big bang (if you think about it aside of your beliefs just for the purpose of me explaining this. And yes it's a bad analogy in the context but I'm short on time and can't think of another) is not responsible for life on earth. It has a knock on effect and whatever is at the top is responsible for everything. If god didn't create logic then there must be some other god - it can't just appear from nowhere with no creator.

 

[steveedster]

Does 'god' exist, no. Even if he/she did exisit, who created god?

Religion is nothing more than a form of human nature, tribalism, humans need to feel they are part of a group theat see things the same as they do, its the same reason we follow a certain football club.

I consider people who believe in 'god' to be delusional, humans once thought the sun was a 'god' now we understand and know what the sun is through science. One day I can only hope the population of this planet advance enough to see beyond religion, then we will see a time with less conflicts and wars.

You must remember we are essentially still a child like race, our civilization is still very very young at only several thousand years and we dont know all the answers so religion attemps to explain them away. God is nothing more than a man made invention for a question we are not yet capable of answering.

 

[HannibalBarka]

...
People who dont have faith, just dont "get it".
....

OK, I am among those who don't "get it", I never freely decided not to get it though. Since I never "decided" not to get it, it's either I lie to myself and act as if I get it and believe in God, but God will know that I am faking, or I'll rot in Hell for eternity without any thing wrong I freely decided to do.
Is that fair?

 

[Ingvina Freyr]

I've discussed with this with my believing friends, but I think it is interesting enough to start a thread about it.

Basically, Christians (and many other believers) say that you have to believe in God, if you want to go to Heaven. God won't take you in if you don't believe in Him, they say. OK, let's accept it. Unfortunately, then the whole faith doesn't have any sense:

1) God created the Universe (one way or another) and he also created us humans (one way or another).
2) He gave us rational mind, which seeks the truth through evidence, logic and facts.
3) He don't give as any hard evidence of his existence.
4) Thus to believe in God means you have to deny your very essence as a rational being. You have to believe in something without evidence, which is illogical and unreasonable.

So, why did he create us this way - why he gave us the rational mind, if it in fact distance us from Him? Or, analogously, why don't he give us any hard evidence of his existence?

Of course, there is also the cynical answer that he created us this way for fun, but that would contradict the common belief that God is righteous.

This is the only explanation that I can come up with that I don't find contradictive:

Humans can't find God, but God can reveal himself to humans, and has done so on one or more occasions earlier in history. All humans who haven't had the privilege to witness this, simply have to believe those who have.

 

[El_Machinae]

Our brains are built such that we derive pleasure from working in groups, being in teams, belonging to something that's 'greater' than us. Evolutionarily, this has a good reason for existing. Socially, we know it to be true, given people's fervour regarding sports teams and patriotism.

Some people seem to train themselves to feel part of a larger 'team' that they then call faith. They feel secure in this feeling of 'togetherness', and thus they enjoy having faith in their god. As well, people often experience a feeling of 'someone else' being with them (some get this feeling more often than others); a group of these people are able to develop these parts of the brain, so that they can cause the 'feeling' to come somewhat on demand.

Following a faith is okay, if it harms no one. If it harms you, then you have to make your own value judgement about its worth. If it harms others, then it's a source of evil.

The Abrahamic gods have a feature that's peculiar and non-human; it's counter-intuitive to humans today, but it was part of Jewish culture before (it seems). They don't forgive unless an apology is made (not a good system to avoid inter-generational strife). We are able to forgive without apology, but these putative gods don't.

The entire Christian faith is based on the concept that humans are insufficiently moral, but may be forgiven if they ask. As a person who often forgives without first getting an apology, it seems strange to anthropomorphise a god who does not.

 

[King Flevance]

Rotting? If God ever left us, or we ever left God, either way the world has been getting better since then. Since the scientific revolution, there have been so many advances in the quality of life, and not one of them a result of divine inspiration. We look on the people of the past, and we pity them for the terrible conditions in which they lived.

And when Jesus walked the Earth he could heal any ills of the people. He can cure blindness, we can't. He can solve world hunger, we can't - we'd rather just waste food in America. How many birth defects are caused by our medicines that we praise and are unaware of this side-effect? How many times a day do you see commercials about "Have you ever used -name of drug- for -condition-? If so, you are entitled to -compensation-."
When we look to the past and pity the people, usually it is the result of other people aiding their "pitiful" condition. Not God's. We bring misery on ourselves. And we are rotting without God.

We have only gotten better by a small amount. Tiny amount.

The biggest problems these days are caused by this faith that you praise so much.

No they are caused by people that claim His faith but do not follow it.

If God truly reveals himself to those who open themselves to them, then why is there so much unrest in the Middle East?

To Him, not to "them". The unrest in the middle East goes deep into stuff I am not very educated on. So, I don't want to make any claims I am not certain of. But it basically boils down to the greed of man vs. God's chosen people. The day that this turmoil ends, be worried. As you are witnessing the beginning of the end of the world.

Has God revealed himself to each of these factions and told them to fight each other?

Those factions get murky for me. And anytime that religion gets murky you have unrest. Religion paints the world in black and white. Grey is always dangerous territory. It is easier for propagandists to rise in murky areas. God is not the aggressive force.

Or are each and every one of those factions just manipulating faith for an excuse to fight each other?

Mostly, yes. Judaism is the side to stand on over there, as they are God's chosen people. Isreal can not be defeated.

Is your Christian God the only true one, and the thousands of faiths founded before or since Christ's birth just pale imitations?

All but Judaism are, yes. Judaism holds something to it beyond this as they are the chosen people of God. I do not know God's will. But Islam is man's creation of Christianity, not Christ's.

 

[steveedster]

oh dear 'chosen people'

 

[King Flevance]

Does 'god' exist, no. Even if he/she did exisit, who created god?

God always was and will be. God created Himself.

Religion is nothing more than a form of human nature, tribalism, humans need to feel they are part of a group theat see things the same as they do, its the same reason we follow a certain football club.

All this says is God built us to think as a whole and as a unified group. Big surprise.

I have nothing more to say on this matter, I consider people who believe in 'god' to be delusional, humans once thought the sun was a 'god' now we understand and know what the sun is through science. One day I can only hope the population of this planet advance enough to see beyond religion, then we will see a time with less conflicts and wars.

When did Christians or Jews worship the sun?
We would still see wars. Humans make empires and empires war. We would come up with a new 'ultimate reason' to go to war. Don't kid yourself. Religion doesn't inspire war. Humans use religion to inspire war. No religion teaches war is good if you look further into the matter.

OK, I am among those who don't "get it", I never freely decided not to get it though. Since I never "decided" not to get it, it's either I lie to myself and act as if I get it and believe in God, but God will know that I am faking, or I'll rot in Hell for eternity without any thing wrong I freely decided to do.
Is that fair?

Bolded the "Bingo!" moment. You freely decided not to "get it". Then bolded the second one. You never gave God a chance. Your logic and rationality are viewed by you to be the most logical and rational explanation for all things in existance even over God's. Yes it is fair considering He gave you life and you never once consider the source. You walked away from your creator, and you rot by doing so. He is trying to tell you to stop walking away. But to do this you must do things the world considers irrational.
I wonder if you think of Christians as close minded when you yourself are unable to open your mind to a God.

Our brains are built such that we derive pleasure from working in groups, being in teams, belonging to something that's 'greater' than us. Evolutionarily, this has a good reason for existing. Socially, we know it to be true, given people's fervour regarding sports teams and patriotism.

See my response to steveedster's comment above.

Some people seem to train themselves to feel part of a larger 'team' that they then call faith. They feel secure in this feeling of 'togetherness', and thus they enjoy having faith in their god. As well, people often experience a feeling of 'someone else' being with them (some get this feeling more often than others); a group of these people are able to develop these parts of the brain, so that they can cause the 'feeling' to come somewhat on demand.

This says humans have a part of their brain that helps God communicate to them. But since science cannot prove God exists this is just a 'feeling'. Nothing more. That is our prayer spot.

The Abrahamic gods have a feature that's peculiar and non-human; it's counter-intuitive to humans today, but it was part of Jewish culture before (it seems). They don't forgive unless an apology is made (not a good system to avoid inter-generational strife). We are able to forgive without apology, but these putative gods don't.

The entire Christian faith is based on the concept that humans are insufficiently moral, but may be forgiven if they ask. As a person who often forgives without first getting an apology, it seems strange to anthropomorphise a god who does not.

It isn't so much about the asking. You can ask God a million times for forgiveness but you will not be forgiven unless you repent. If someone slaps you out of nowhere just because they can, I am sure you can forgive them. When they do it again, I am sure you can forgive them again. Around slap number 500+ even you and your forgiving nature are going to realize there is no reason to forgive them again until they stop slapping you.

We slap God every day with our sins. We have to try to stop them if we are to be forgiven.

 

[StarWorms]

We have only gotten better by a small amount. Tiny amount.

So is an increase of life expectancy of 28 in roman times (Wikipedia) to 80s as it stands now just a small amount? A 186% increase is small?

God always was and will be. God created Himself.

To create yourself you'd have to not exist in the first place. You can't create yourself if you already exist.