Gr7 - AWM vs 30 civs on a giant map

[LKendter]

In fact now that we know we will have horses, I would like to go more for a OCP style city placement. That's just me though...

Well OCP implies trying to get every city 21 tiles. I just don't see us having enough luxuries to support cities that large. OTOH planing for the cities to have 12 usuable tiles is acceptable. We may want to plan out cities that are long term abandons and only build troops from them. I would renames those cities. I do see size 12 cities as a viable goal.

 

[Ginger_Ale]

Now that I've seen this SG progress, it might've been better to do ~4 tile spacing with cities, at least in the core area. You will easily get to size 12, and when hospitals / factories come around, size 15 to 16 cities can produce a good amount of shields. It will be interesting to see how this game turns out with the city placement in the industrial age.

 

[Matt_G]

It will be interesting to see how this game turns out with the city placement in the industrial age.

If we get to that point (factories/hospitals), we are going to regret this layout in the core bigtime.

 

[ThERat]

guys, the core could be loose builds but the front certainly not..if we have 3 tile spacing we can reach out to those units with cats and trabs, imagine a 4 tile spacing and they will just slip through and we can't reach them

 

[LKendter]

I will repeat my comment again: We may want to plan out cities that are long term abandons and only build troops from them.

We can always abandon some cities after the front is pushed forward enough.

 

[markh]

What about the GLib ? IMO we will not need it, so we do not prebuild at Mauch Chunk ? If we are lucky and a closeby builds it we can grab it militarily.
I normally also do not like 3-tile spacing in normal games, but for this one I would stick to it at least in the beginning. We may have 20+ opponents, so we may need fast shifting. We can still abandon some cities later on as LKendter suggested. I would start my turns in about 2 - 3 hours when I am back home, so if there are any other suggestions please let me have them.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

We shoud try and develop a front line of cities from Allegheny SW through blue and pink dots. Then we would expand the front forward. We can anchor our left flank on the river east of Allegheny.

Plus remember that we are going to be at war with a lot of civs very soon. Contact will spread and we'll soon know all 29 remaining civs. That's a lot of incoming enemies.

 

[markh]

End of Matt's turn : put science back a notch

IBT: -

1) 530BC : not much to do

IBT : Salamanca builds settler -> swordsman
Niagara Falls builds swordsman -> swordsman
Grand River builds swordsman -> swordsman
Two Fish builds swordsman -> swordsman

2) 510BC : still not much to do

IBT: Maths is in -> HBR
Allegheny builds swordsman -> worker
Tonawanda builds walls -> settler
Mauch Chung builds granary -> worker

3) 490BC : getting lazy

IBT: Byz ewarrior appears near Niagara Falls

4) 470BC : get worker to safety, he is feared of the Byz warrior

IBT: Byz horseman kills warrior [0-1]
Byz archer appears at Allegheny
Allegheny builds worker -> swordsman
Mauch Chunk builds worker -> catapult

5) 450BC : swordsman kills Byz ewarrior [1-1]

IBT : Byz archer closes to Allegheny

6) 430BC : nothing of interest

IBT: 2 Byz horsemen arrive at Allegheny
Niagara Falls builds swordsman -> swordsman
Oil Springs builds swordsman -> worker

7) 410BC : Centralia founded -> walls
swordsman kills Byz horseman [2-1]
swordsman kills Byz archer [3-1]

IBT: Salamanca builds swordsman -> swordsman
Grand River builds swordsman -> swordsman

8) 390BC : archer kills Byz horseman [4-1]

IBT : Tonawanda builds settler -> catapult
Mauch Chunk builds catapult -> settler
Now we know who's borders are to the south. A Mayan swordsman appears. We have nothing to deal. He is up at least CB, Writing and HBR. We are at war with the Maya.

9) 370BC : nothing

IBT : Two Fish builds swordsman -> swordsman
Oil Springs builds worker -> swordsman
St. Regis builds barracks -> worker

10) 350BC : swordsman kills Mayan swordsman [5-1]

HBR is due in 3. A settler is right in front of centralia and there are 3 sworsman to escort him to the horses. 2 workers are also there to connect it. We have now a worker per city. Some more will be better.

Here is screenie and the save

Sir Bugsy is up !
greebley on holidays
ThERat on deck

 

[Sir Bugsy]

I have it.

 

[ThERat]

After securing the horses, I hope we have the chance to secure one of the 2 luxes we can see.
So, we decided not to go for the GL, hope this pays, Mauch Chunk can be a great city IMHO. We should let it build or rush the FP.
Now, I remember since we actually have a shot at wonders, there is one wonder that is huge for us, Sun Tzu with a free rax for the whole continent. Imagine we can actually grab it. In my mind , as mentioned above, Mauch Chunk should be exclusively wonder building. We will get enough other cities to build mil and settlers

 

[Greebley]

Hey all,
I am back (a bit early) and can play after Sir Bugsey.

I think I prefer Lee's idea of towns that can be later abandoned.

I am not sure going for a loose build really matters. Domination need not be our victory condition. I am guessing we will end up going for conquest.

It is very possible when we try to place our 16th -20th city we will fail due to the city limit. In which case we will want settlers in place for the next city to try each turn. We may also have to raze enemy cities to plant our own.


Greebley - On Deck
ThERat
LKendter
Matt_G
Markh - Just Played
Sir Bugsy - Up

 

[Sir Bugsy]

Pre-flight – Wake up a few units and move them forward. Change Two Fish to a worker.

330 – Move troops forward and set up a picket line to the SW.
IBT – A Korean warrior approaches.
310 - The Koreans have 13 cities, are up HBR, writing & CB. Declare war. Kill the Korean. Science comes down.(1-0)

IBT – Two Byzantines step forward. HBR=>CB (4 turns @ -8gpt)
290 – Retreat a Byz horse.
IBT – Two more Byzantines step forward.

270 – Found Horsesasne on the horses. I don’t want a Dromon disconnecting them. Kill three Byzantines and retreat a horse. (5-0)
IBT – A Mayan JT steps forward.
250 – Kill a Byz horse, lose a sword to a JT (Mayan GA if they didn’t have it already taking out the Mongols) Kill the JT, but walk right next to another one. (7-1)

IBT – JT kills our sword. (7-2)
230 – Kill the offending JT. Find out we can anchor our right flank on the sea as well. (8-2)
IBT – CB=>Myst (we can get it in 9 with positive cash flow) I have been going for whatever tech has been cheapest. The idea is we’ll have to get these anyway.

210 – Found Greebendenaga.
190 - Nada
170 – Found Ratnawake. Mayans are inbound.
IBT – The Mayans head away from Ratnawake.
150 – Nada

Here is the SE front:

Red lines show the latest tracks of enemy units. The Korean came from the east between the Byzantines and the Mayans. I would settle at Pink Dot to consolidate the front. Maybe later at Red Dot.

Here is the Southern front:

I’ve set up a picket line. As you can see we have the sea to the south as well. We can anchor our right front there. However, that is a lot of forest we’ll have to deal with. I figure we have two options. We can settle along the green line, probably at each end. Or we can place some aggressive outposts at yellow and aqua dot. (Aqua dot is new super hero.)

We’ll have the horses hooked up in three turns and incense hooked up next turn. We’ll want to build nothing but Mounties after that.

Most of the cities are set up nicely. Tonawanda needs another shield. Keep building cats somewhere.

Here’s the save. It is getting large so we’ll need to be zipping it.

Save: http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads10/gr7_150BC.zip

Greebley is up.

 

[ThERat]

looking nice, as for all the forrest, it might be a good idea to get a gang of 4 to chop it in 1 turn and generate lots of shields for those towns. Clearing the wood will also make defense easier.

I would send the red settler S SW to settle before green and yellow dot. Or do we want to backfill?

Also, is it wise to change Allegheny to prouce workers, we need those for above mentioned tasks.

Had a look at the city count, pretty even but we are trailing a little. Byz seems to fare the worst.

 

[Sir Bugsy]

Allegheny produces 3 spt at the moment. It could probably be MM'ed to be a two turn worker factory with more pop.

- the workers over by Ratnawake need to be covered. The Byzantine horses could sweep out of the gloom and kill them. My bad.

 

[Matt_G]

- the workers over by Ratnawake need to be covered. The Byzantine horses could sweep out of the gloom and kill them. My bad.

I just looked at the save. You already have them covered Bugsy.

 

[Greebley]

I got it.

 

[LKendter]

It is time to explain some of my reasoning behind city placement on this map.
I see the following issues:

1) Production is the key. We can't afford fishing villages - period. On a normal map I don't mind them. However, on this map we will run out of city site. Lets take a look at the proposed red dot from Bugsy. The white lines are the land tiles it can claim. The 2 white spaces marked by an x are food neutral. Before rails we are looking at 2 food neutral, 1 food plus, and 3 hills that will take forever to grow into. That is even with stealing from yellow dot.

2) We need to plan to eventually get close to size 12 cities. I think going beyond that doesn't make sense due to that fact we will be lucky to control more then 3 or 4 luxuries for a long time. Now take another look at the original red dot. It can get 6 food neutral and 2 hills. I think the overall productivity is clearly in favor of the original red dot.

3) Now lets talk about my "abandon" towns. Take a look at the long-term plans for unneeded cities. Look at the used tiles for the five cities around Oil Springs with my red dot. Almost all of the tiles can be given to another city and Oil Springs can be abandon1 building nothing but military. I think the whole empire needs to be thought out in this fashion.


Don't forget the Vikings are in play, so we MUST keep the coastal cities with 2 defenders each. The AI is a bit lame with marines, but it really will use Berserks. I have watched a lot more towns die to these, then to marines.

 

[Greebley]

It was asked if we could look at what techs the AI has. The answer is yes, that is part of what I meant when we were playing AW without restrictions. We can also pillage.

Preturn:
Raise science to get Mysticism in 4. My thought is to go for Monarchy. We might be able to get it before our GA so we can have a non-despotic GA. It may mean not using our Mounted Warriors so it may not work. Going for Monarchy isn't bad in any case...

I also switch some cities to settlers. My thought is that we our expansion is more limited by our lack of Settlers than it is by lack of units. There is still land to grab, and I want to grab it first and quickly in case we hit the max city limit soon.

The settler circled in red is going to go for a town to grab the furs and the deer. We can use the Lux.

IBT: Swords advance into range. Egyptian Warriors (2) spotted

130 BC: Kill 2 Swords (2-0)

IBT: Some More Mayan units appear. Egyptian Warriors are within range. Byz Spear and 2 Swords is spotted.

110 BC: Kill the 2 Egyptian Warriors. Kill a Mayan Javelin. Retreat our Sentry Archer away from a Javelin. Attack into forest is not great odds. (5-0)
Build Chaughnawaga

IBT: A Regular Sword attacks a Spear and wins. Byz Advance. We can start the Forbidden Palace. (5-1)

90 BC: Bombard Byz Spear , Vet Sword loses to Regular Byz Sword. We kill the two Reg Byz Swords and Injured Byz Spear.
Kill the Injured Mayan Sword that killed the Spear in the IBT. (9-2) Turn down Science (Myst in 1).
Build Oka

IBT: Get Mysticism. Polytheism is a long 15-17 turns. Mayan boat is in the area

70 BC: Try to shift units over to deal with some Mayans in the forest.

IBT: Mayan Boat drops off two Swords. We have spears in the area, but not Swords.

50 BC: Rush a Sword. Kill a Mayan Javalin and 2 Swords after Bombardment. (12-2)

IBT: Dropped off Mayan swords attack a spear on a hill. The first Sword dies, the second kills our spear taking no damage. Korean Warriors are approaching. (13-3)

30 BC: Kill a Javelin and a Korean Warrior. Do not attack the Mayan dropped off Sword as it is on the hill. Defend the iron and hills instead. (15-3)
Build Chondote

IBT: Dropped off Sword attacks another Spear on a hill and dies. (16-3)

10 BC: Lose a Kill the Korean Regular and Conscript Warriors, but lose a Sword doing so. (18-4).
Build Ganogeh
Build Southern Woods

Unit cost drops to zero.

Note that summer woods is not in line with the dot map. The reach of the proposed front line was too far for us to manage.

IBT: Some Mayan swords come in Range.

10 AD: Attack a Regular Sword with a Vet Archer and lose. [18-5]
I finally get the Furs connected.
Raise science to 90% - We now Get Polytheism in 8 turns. That will probably drop when the AI gets it.

IBT: Korea shows up with Horses. This is the first fast units I have seen this turn.

30 AD: Kill a Javelin. [19-5]

IBT: Injured Sword attacks our Sword and loses. [20-5]

50 AD: Mauch Chunk grows to size 7 (our FP City) I raise Lux to 10% and lower Science to 80%. Poly in 7.

Notes:
I felt we were concentrating too much on Military. We had more troops than we really needed. I refocused on expansion. Went from unit costs of 15 to unit costs of 0. We should continue to expand, Monarchy has less city support.

The AI will probably get Polytheism soon and the number of turns will go down. I don't think the AI is pressing us hard yet. For that reason, I would like to wait for the GA until after we are a Monarchy. That will be 20-25 turns from now.

I will provide a picture of what I ended up doing in the South.

 

[LKendter]

Trying to find the save.

 

[Greebley]

Oops, Here it is.

The Save