Grenfell Tower Inquiry

AmazonQueen

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No surprises really, but its becoming clear why the architects etc involved in refurbishing the Grenfell Tower were insistent that any evidence they gave should not be useable in any prosecution.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...to-avoid-contract-going-out-to-tender-inquiry

An architect who didn't bother reading the applicable regulations and felt it was up to others outside his firm to check on compliance although one of the services his firm promised to provide was to “ensure that all designs comply with the relevant statutory requirements”.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...ry-halted-by-protesters-calling-it-a-cover-up

Firm of architects chosen without competitive tender and without experience of the type of work involved.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news...-out-to-massage-fire-safety-plan-inquiry-told

Engineers admit the refurbishment was making “a crap condition worse”.
 
So any chances of people seeing jail time?
 
Don't get your expectations up.
 
Zero. Error is error, and unless you can prove willful negligence errors don't get people thrown in jail.

You would think failing to comply with multiple building codes counts as negligence.

An error is one mistake maybe 2.

If they can't meet the absolute minimum when it's their job to do so well yeah.
 
You would think failing to comply with multiple building codes counts as negligence.

An error is one mistake maybe 2.

If they can't meet the absolute minimum when it's their job to do so well yeah.

Problem is that the guy is also correct when he says "that should have been caught by ______, or _____, or _____..." Assuming that things work the same way there as here:

1) Architect draws plans. - Okay, failed to check specification for materials on this type of building.
2) Plans are submitted to equivalent of Department of Building and Safety for Plan Check - this is the stage where B&S marks everything they want to be reviewed by an engineer for loading calculations, etc...I've also had any number of plans kicked back here for improper materials because they are in fact supposed to check that
3) Plans are corrected by architect and submitted for engineering review - An engineering firm has to perform all the calculations required for loading, meaning snow on the roof, wind pressures, weight distribution on all load bearing structural members. In doing that they look up every material used to determine rated strength and material weight...and if they looked that up they looked right at "not suitable for this purpose" and while it isn't specifically what they are contracted to do there is a general rule of thumb that says they will tell the architect that piece of information before they stamp OK all over the plans.
4) Plans go back to B&S for secondary review - this is making sure that everything the engineer was supposed to check was checked, and includes some amount of verification ie yes this calculation is correct, so is this one, so is that one...okay spot check good. This is supposedly done by someone who is familiar with the type of construction the plans are for so that they will pick smart things to recheck, and at least in theory that sort of person would say "hmmmmm, haven't seen that used on something like this," look it up and be all over it.

Assuming all that is gotten past you get a permit. Now

5) Contractor - gets material for the job. He's looking at different suppliers and comparing their products to the general material specification on the plans. Can I get this thickness. Does it meet this load carry specification. Etc etc etc. He may talk to one supplier, and he may talk to ten, but every one of those conversations is generally going to include a rough description of the job and under normal circumstances every supplier of that material is going to say "you are building what, where...man this material isn't code for that you need _____________." They are also going to supply a spec sheet for the material and that spec sheet is not going to match the code requirements on the plans.

6) Inspector - on the job site an inspector is signing off steps on the permit. He is not going to look at a material that isn't normal for the type of job and say "huh, look at that," and just sign. Inspectors just ache to say "show me how that's right" and watch people scurry about.

So, yeah, a whole bunch of people along the line are "culpable" for making mistakes. Maybe every one of them says "well I thought..." and fingers someone else up or down the chain. Maybe inspectors get canned, architects get fired, contractors get blacklisted; maybe all kinds of things happen...but willful negligence charges sticking? On one guy along the chain? Not a chance.
 
In the US, if the errors are in the plans then the plan stampers are certainly liable. If the plans are ok and the contractor substituted, then he is liable. All the inspectors are also on the hook.
 
In the US, if the errors are in the plans then the plan stampers are certainly liable. If the plans are ok and the contractor substituted, then he is liable. All the inspectors are also on the hook.

Liable, but not criminal.
 
Personally, I think burning at the stake would be a fitting punishment.
 
Personally, I think burning at the stake would be a fitting punishment.

For which step in the chain of people who are available to blame? Or should be just go with "all and let God sort them out"? Keeping in mind that at some point you create a situation where you never get another building permit issued again.
 
For which step in the chain of people who are available to blame? Or should be just go with "all and let God sort them out"? Keeping in mind that at some point you create a situation where you never get another building permit issued again.
It would depend on whether the plans were faulty, the contractor f'ed up or the inspectors negligent. From the articles, it looks like the architects were at fault. That would put the architects and engineers at the top of my list. The Inspectors who walked the building cannot be exempted if they reviewed the plans before their walk.
 
It would depend on whether the plans were faulty, the contractor f'ed up or the inspectors negligent. From the articles, it looks like the architects were at fault. That would put the architects and engineers at the top of my list. The Inspectors who walked the building cannot be exempted if they reviewed the plans before their walk.

So they can be exempted if they inspected the building without reviewing the plans? How's that work? This is a screwup of monumental proportion that involves failures by more people than can be counted on one hand and maybe two. We gonna burn them all? Not saying I'm strictly opposed. I mean, who doesn't like a good clean mass execution to show contrition. But do you really think it will help?
 
So they can be exempted if they inspected the building without reviewing the plans? How's that work? This is a screwup of monumental proportion that involves failures by more people than can be counted on one hand and maybe two. We gonna burn them all? Not saying I'm strictly opposed. I mean, who doesn't like a good clean mass execution to show contrition. But do you really think it will help?
Well, no. I guess if they did not see the plans or were not required to review them, then they might get off the hook. Again I do not know British construction practices. A roasting is a fitting punishment for the crime. Will it affect future construction work. It might well. What were the consequences of a major f up on your part when reading reactor dials on your sub? Anything personal if the reactor melted down?

When you raise the stakes when people put others in danger, and still give them control over what they do, most people play closer attention to what are are doing. There is a reason pilots inspect their planes before taking off.
 
Well, no. I guess if they did not see the plans or were not required to review them, then they might get off the hook. Again I do not know British construction practices. A roasting is a fitting punishment for the crime. Will it affect future construction work. It might well. What were the consequences of a major f up on your part when reading reactor dials on your sub? Anything personal if the reactor melted down?

When you raise the stakes when people put others in danger, and still give them control over what they do, most people play closer attention to what are are doing. There is a reason pilots inspect their planes before taking off.

Well, yeah...though "melt down" is a media scare phrase not a real thing operators think about. But if something went wrong sure enough I was gonna die for it. But that's a whole lot different environment than sitting in an office doing plan checks. No one is going to allow a complete redo of the existing work. You check enough to feel comfortable that what was done was done right, and you move on. That's the deal, because there's another plan to check and it's called checking, not redoing. And an inspector does review the plans and then walk the job. He also looks at what he looks at and if he sees that what he is looking at is done right he signs and he hopes that all the things he didn't look at were done right too, because he can't spend an hour and recheck everything that a crew of a hundred, or fifty, or even three, has done over a week, or three, or however long. That too is the deal.
 
@Timsup2nothin

Excellent post.

Thing is Grenfell Tower is merely the one that burnt down.

There are hundreds of buildings in the UK with dangerous cladding,
so it is more of a systematic failing than down to any individual.
 
@Timsup2nothin

Excellent post.

Thing is Grenfell Tower is merely the one that burnt down.

There are hundreds of buildings in the UK with dangerous cladding,
so it is more of a systematic failing than down to any individual.

Its not just the regulations, its the enforcement of them.
A culture where councils and housing associations turn a blind eye to poor quality work because the companies doing the work do it cheaply.
Its not the first fire exacerbated by cladding in the UK and if the response is just a few fines it won't be the last.
 
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