[RD] Happy International Men's Day!

[Valka D'Ur]

This day does not get much fanfare in North America I don't think, but it is an important day nevertheless. I remember when the International Women's Day wasn't really celebrated in Canada either, so maybe it's just a matter of time before these days get the attention they deserve.

This is the day when us men can reflect on the unique challenges, needs, responsibilities, and problems with our male gender. This is a complex subject, which I hope we can keep civil, much like I'd expect from a discussion centering around International Women's Day.

These are important subjects to discuss. Male suicide is out of control in many western countries and there remains a stigma for men to discuss these issues, as well as a lack of support services specifically for this purpose. Many men feel like they do not have anybody to turn to when they struggle with thoughts about suicide, so they just pull the trigger.. sort to speak.. It is incredibly depressing to see so many young and old men kill themselves every year, when in many cases some therapy or just somebody willing to listen would have been a great first step towards fixing the underlying issues, or at least preventing suicide as being a viable option in that person's mind.. With the economy in many western countries not really doing very well right now, and many people having employment issues and other related concerns, this also seems like a good time to bring up these issues here.

If anybody on here is ever feeling suicidal, or you just want somebody to talk to.. no matter what your gender, you can always message me. I am sitting at home pretty much 24/7 and am on chat services like discord, so if anything I would be willing to listen to your issues. I am not a trained psychologist in any sense of the word, but I do know that just talking can make a huge difference. So don't be shy, if you have problems feel free to send me a message. The worst that could happen is we become friends.

It is also important to remember the physical challenges men face - such as prostate cancer, which kills about 1 in 40 men in America. That's a crazy statistic and it's something men never talk about. Women are doing it right - look at how much attention and funding breast cancer has gotten over the years. It used to be a bit of a taboo subject as well, but over the decades women have educated themselves and now openly talk about this issue with each other. But us men, we do not like to talk about our testicles... So many men do not end up doing simple checkups that could easily save their lives. This has got to stop, this idea that you are "too manly" to cry or talk about your health issues or mental health issues. These gender roles have been a part of our society for a while, so it will take some time to get rid of them, but right now they are very in the way of us solving some of these issues.

What other problems do men face? Personally I have only ever experienced mild sexual harrassment, and after shutting it down the other person listened to my concerns and backed off. That was easy enough for me in that situation, but I know that many men just don't want to talk about being sexually harassed, about being raped, or about facing domestic violence at home from their partner (no matter the gender). There is still a lot of stigma for men to discuss these issues openly. We just don't do it, we push it under the rug and hope it goes away. We don't want our friends and family to know.

STOP

It's okay to talk about these issues. I am not sure how to really change the culture around all this, but we need to be able to openly discuss such issues. Our gender is "lucky" in that the vast majority of these sexual and domestic violence issues affects women, and not us. And that is important to note. Most of the time I don't have to worry about this stuff.. BUT IT STILL HAPPENS AND AFFECTS MANY MEN. The stigma surrounding discussing and reporting these problems needs to go away, but like I said that is not an easy battle. These things are deeply ingrained in our cultural psyche. They will not go away overnight.

And yes, this day should also be a reflection of how we can improve as a gender. You should never be judged by your gender, ever, but that does not mean that you can just ignore the historic injustices perpetrated by our gender either. These injustices must be on our mind, lest we forget about them. This day can't be used to compete with women over these issues. Their issues are in some ways similar to the issues we face, but we each have unique problems to deal with as well, and you can't forget that either.

So, tell me.. men of Civfanatics.. What does it mean to you to belong to the male gender? Do you like the associated gender stereotypes and so called gender roles? Do you think it's sexist when people tell you to "man up"? Do you wish you could cry without people judging you? Do you think it's possible for you, as a man, to both celebrate this day and your gender - while at the same time being retrospective about the historic problems our gender is wrapped up in?

This thread is not meant to be gender exclusive, much like I would not expect an International Women's Day thread to be exclusively for women. The best way to understand yourself is to change your point of view and attempt to see yourself from the outside - and since women exist outside of the male gender, they are in a unique position to critique us.. celebrate us.. and offer insights we otherwise might have missed. So the female (and non-binary) perspective is welcome here as well, seeing as how women were really the first ones to rally around their gender and bring the unique issues women face to the forefront, turning some of these taboo subjects into issues every single person knows about - so that it is easier for women to discuss these issues and deal with them, instead of pushing them under the rug, the way many men ignore mental health and/or physical health problems...

So tell me, what does this day mean to you? And if you are a male, what does that mean to you? I am personally using this day to reflect on what it means to be a man and how I can improve as a human being in that context. I am reminding myself to do a full body physical, because .. well, you just never know. I am reminding myself to take better care of my mental health, and to try to open up better when I have problems I do not want other people to know about. I am reminding myself to try to better understand the female perspective, because that's very important as well, and because historically that gender has faced a lot more challenges than men ever have. And that's the thing - there are things we could learn from the female approach here that could help us as well. While it is almost never a good idea to generalize, men are in many ways stubborn about many of these issues. The stigma of discussing a lot of this stuff is a big problem for our gender. Hopefully this discussion and this annual reminder that we are men will help move our gender in the right direction. We are all quite different men, and many here aren't men at all. But let's not forget that we are all human and on the same team.

So happy International Men's day! And please let's keep it civil

Thank you for inviting women to post in this thread. I just want to say good luck to all the guys of this forum. Some people have accused me of not liking men (usually based on some exasperated comment I might have made in one of the many "how do I get a date/girlfriend" threads)... but honestly. There have been some years when I've been the only female OT regular. Would I have stuck by this place all these years if I didn't generally like most of you? The times when there has been acrimony hasn't been due to "___ is a guy and therefore bad." It's been some other reason.

So... best wishes and good luck to all of you. I've seen a bit of how society tends to treat men in some ways, due to my dad having custody after my parents' divorce. Some people couldn't wrap their judgy judgmental minds around that, claiming that it wasn't "natural."

Well, it was natural to me, and much more enjoyable to have a parent who valued my opinions and interests. So to any of you here who are single parents or seeking custody of kids... don't ever let anyone, whether friend, acquaintance, bystander, or the courts tell you it's unnatural. My dad didn't know everything, and when a problem came along, he'd ask advice from others. When I had to explain things to him myself, he listened. Do these things, and you'll be fine.

Fathers kissing sons us new, didn't see that much as a kid if at all.

Back during the Dark Decade, when Stephen Harper was the Prime Minister, people generally thought it was weird that he never hugged his kids in public. He'd shake their hands. We're talking pre-teens, when this first started.

I am not a confident person, I used to have fairly bad social anxiety. I have had panic attacks, triggered by social situations. I can't relate to the alpha male. And yet when you look at my cool and calm outside exterior, you might assume that I am an alpha male, someone who is super confident, never cries, and has no problems walking through life getting whatever he wants. I am not that person. Yet people often assume so just judging my book by its cover - my broad Slav frame & shoulders, imposing upper body, and resting B face, and somewhat chill & collected approach to life. My outside skin is not what defines me - the insides do. The parts nobody ever sees - unless they ask. And nobody ever asks.

You do give the impression of being a confident person. Maybe it's all the world traveling you've done that helps with that. You give the impression of being adventurous, and that does take some measure of confidence. I get anxiety just planning a trip to the mall, never mind going to another country where I don't speak the local language and can't even read a road sign there.

These days parents don't let their kids walk to school on their own so it's a bit of a case of helicopter parents changing these norms to something else completely. But yeah, when I was growing up it was mainly a group of boys who caused that mischief. There was of course a girl here and there, but from what I remember at least most little girls hung out with other little girls and played in the sandbox or with dolls or what have you. Boys, on the other hand, ran around and caused mischief. A gross generalization, but essentially that's what I remember, if you ignore the 5% error margin. (i.e. those girls who hung out with boys and vice versa, they always exist here and there)

Ohgoodgrief, helicopter parents. I have to wonder when the switch got flipped between "have fun, show up for meals, don't do anything stupid that would get you arrested or in the hospital" and "don't you dare set foot 3 inches off the front porch without an adult present" and socializing is by arranged "play dates." The first time I ever heard that expression was on my soap opera in the early '80s and I honestly had no idea what it meant. In my experience, kids just knocked on their friend's door and asked if they wanted to play or go somewhere else to play.

Someone, earlier this year on CBC, opined that kids younger than 14 should not be allowed to go anywhere alone. Contrast that to a century ago - my grandfather was out of school and earning money at a job at that age. So were my grandmother and great-aunt. In the neighborhood where I lived in the city in the early '70s before moving in with my grandparents, 6-year-old kids were expected to know how to walk to school alone (better with a friend or sibling, but alone if they had to). Nowadays, 6-year-old kids are barely allowed to go from one room to another. School-age kids have been removed from their parents' custody for the "crime" of walking down the street or taking the bus without adult supervision. And then they're magically supposed to know how to be adults as soon as they reach 18, without having had the interim experiences that teach them how to navigate the world they're expected to live in.

So to be completely transparent that was in communist Poland, which was probably a somewhat unique place to grow up, compared to the west. But I bet some of these dynamics were the same.

Sometimes it's a product of the times, not the locations.

FWIW, I've been part of all-female groups, both in RL and online. And for the most part, they can be really boring if you're not married with children, or at least a SO. They can also be petty, vindictive, and incredibly vicious at times.

I prefer a mix of people from various backgrounds and common interests. Like in the SCA and Star Trek and gaming groups I was part of in my pre-online life. And here.


Oh, and one last piece of advice, guys. If you're feeling down and need a hug from someone, it's okay to ask. It's also okay to give if someone else asks. That's something my dad and I worked out, after a lifetime of him being told no, it's not okay. I taught him that it really is okay.

 

[Zardnaar]

Thank you for inviting women to post in this thread. I just want to say good luck to all the guys of this forum. Some people have accused me of not liking men (usually based on some exasperated comment I might have made in one of the many "how do I get a date/girlfriend" threads)... but honestly. There have been some years when I've been the only female OT regular. Would I have stuck by this place all these years if I didn't generally like most of you? The times when there has been acrimony hasn't been due to "___ is a guy and therefore bad." It's been some other reason.

So... best wishes and good luck to all of you. I've seen a bit of how society tends to treat men in some ways, due to my dad having custody after my parents' divorce. Some people couldn't wrap their judgy judgmental minds around that, claiming that it wasn't "natural."

Well, it was natural to me, and much more enjoyable to have a parent who valued my opinions and interests. So to any of you here who are single parents or seeking custody of kids... don't ever let anyone, whether friend, acquaintance, bystander, or the courts tell you it's unnatural. My dad didn't know everything, and when a problem came along, he'd ask advice from others. When I had to explain things to him myself, he listened. Do these things, and you'll be fine.


Back during the Dark Decade, when Stephen Harper was the Prime Minister, people generally thought it was weird that he never hugged his kids in public. He'd shake their hands. We're talking pre-teens, when this first started.


You do give the impression of being a confident person. Maybe it's all the world traveling you've done that helps with that. You give the impression of being adventurous, and that does take some measure of confidence. I get anxiety just planning a trip to the mall, never mind going to another country where I don't speak the local language and can't even read a road sign there.


Ohgoodgrief, helicopter parents. I have to wonder when the switch got flipped between "have fun, show up for meals, don't do anything stupid that would get you arrested or in the hospital" and "don't you dare set foot 3 inches off the front porch without an adult present" and socializing is by arranged "play dates." The first time I ever heard that expression was on my soap opera in the early '80s and I honestly had no idea what it meant. In my experience, kids just knocked on their friend's door and asked if they wanted to play or go somewhere else to play.

Someone, earlier this year on CBC, opined that kids younger than 14 should not be allowed to go anywhere alone. Contrast that to a century ago - my grandfather was out of school and earning money at a job at that age. So were my grandmother and great-aunt. In the neighborhood where I lived in the city in the early '70s before moving in with my grandparents, 6-year-old kids were expected to know how to walk to school alone (better with a friend or sibling, but alone if they had to). Nowadays, 6-year-old kids are barely allowed to go from one room to another. School-age kids have been removed from their parents' custody for the "crime" of walking down the street or taking the bus without adult supervision. And then they're magically supposed to know how to be adults as soon as they reach 18, without having had the interim experiences that teach them how to navigate the world they're expected to live in.


Sometimes it's a product of the times, not the locations.

FWIW, I've been part of all-female groups, both in RL and online. And for the most part, they can be really boring if you're not married with children, or at least a SO. They can also be petty, vindictive, and incredibly vicious at times.

I prefer a mix of people from various backgrounds and common interests. Like in the SCA and Star Trek and gaming groups I was part of in my pre-online life. And here.


Oh, and one last piece of advice, guys. If you're feeling down and need a hug from someone, it's okay to ask. It's also okay to give if someone else asks. That's something my dad and I worked out, after a lifetime of him being told no, it's not okay. I taught him that it really is okay.

They passed a law here a while back that an older sibling had to be at least 14.

Can't leave kids unsupervised.

Started first job aged 13.....

Some families you stopped getting spanked when you were physically big enough to stop your mother doing it or were willing to fight your dad.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Some families you stopped getting spanked when you were physically big enough to stop your mother doing it or were willing to fight your dad.

My dad never hit me. He'd get drunk and be verbally nasty on occasion, but never physically violent.

My mother got physically violent and verbally abusive without the influence of alcohol. Some of her "reasons" were really petty, and she never did figure out why I was relieved to not have to live with her anymore. I even had to tell her not to talk a certain way to my cat, because she was scaring him. It was the same tone of voice she used when I was 5 and afraid. None of my cats liked her, and she was absolutely incapable of understanding why.

Then she got it into her head that I owed her a grandchild. Well, no. Even if I'd wanted a kid, there is no way I would ever let one of my kids be alone with her. Ever.

I think my dad would have made a decent grandfather, though. Maybe in some other alternative reality, that's how things turned out.

 

[Narz]

How could you say it's silly though, when these issues kill so many men every year? Surely attempting to open a dialogue so we discuss these issues is the opposite of silly, since it can save lives.

I don't think the answer to modern problems is to be found in disscect them everthemore by gender, race, religion, height, whateverthe****.

If my daughter suffers it's not a girl problem, it's my problem, likewise if a husband suffers it's also a "woman's issue" assuming his wife gives a damn about him.

Anyway, having a special day to cry about our grievances is not very manly. Also considering the overall negative impression modern feminism has I don't think we need masculinism or whatever (the men's rights movements are viciously mocked by women & men).

Since I'm here tho I'd say one good step for men (and for general public health) is a through reformation of the legal system, legalize drugs, prostitution, stop throwing people (mostly men) in prison for things that shouldn't be crimes (and in doing so breaking up families, leading to more lost boys [and girls] raised w/o a father figure).

 

[Narz]

Then she got it into her head that I owed her a grandchild. Well, no. Even if I'd wanted a kid, there is no way I would ever let one of my kids be alone with her. Ever.

I think my dad would have made a decent grandfather, though. Maybe in some other alternative reality, that's how things turned out.

It seems to be a sad fact of evolution that the most conscientious women (and men) often choose not to reproduce.

 

[caketastydelish]

 

[Birdjaguar]

It seems to be a sad fact of evolution that the most conscientious women (and men) often choose not to reproduce.

Women having fewer children is a pretty recent phenomenon that started as they became both more educated and moved into cities. Demographically it only goes back a few centuries, but it is very real now.

 

[GenMarshall]

I am an international man ^_^

But, are you an International Man of Mystery?

 

[Zardnaar]

My dad never hit me. He'd get drunk and be verbally nasty on occasion, but never physically violent.

My mother got physically violent and verbally abusive without the influence of alcohol. Some of her "reasons" were really petty, and she never did figure out why I was relieved to not have to live with her anymore. I even had to tell her not to talk a certain way to my cat, because she was scaring him. It was the same tone of voice she used when I was 5 and afraid. None of my cats liked her, and she was absolutely incapable of understanding why.

Then she got it into her head that I owed her a grandchild. Well, no. Even if I'd wanted a kid, there is no way I would ever let one of my kids be alone with her. Ever.

I think my dad would have made a decent grandfather, though. Maybe in some other alternative reality, that's how things turned out.

Stepfather liked getting drunk and yelled. Strapped me once.

Mother just used jug cord or whatever. She used to get the strap across her face from her parents.

Wasn't to upset when grandma passed out put it that way.

 

[Bugfatty300]

It seems to be a sad fact of evolution that the most conscientious women (and men) often choose not to reproduce.

Why is that sad?

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Stepfather liked getting drunk and yelled. Strapped me once.

Mother just used jug cord or whatever. She used to get the strap across her face from her parents.

Wasn't to upset when grandma passed out put it that way.

That's rough.

Understandable about not being upset about your grandmother. This is another life lesson: Never let anyone tell you how to mourn (or not mourn) a dead family member, or that you're not doing it right. How you feel is your own business, for your own reasons, and you don't owe justification to anyone.

Why is that sad?

Possibly losing some of the empathy and logic genes that would benefit our species in the long run? (just guessing, not trying to put words in Narz' posts)

(Yes, I know it's not a real scientific answer. But I did think long and hard about my decision not to have children, and it wasn't easy. I was in my early 20s at the time, my mom's sister had been diagnosed with terminal cancer - it runs in the female side of my mother's family so I've been hoping for decades that I have more of my dad's side in that respect, though his side carries such lovely crap like dementia and Alzheimers - and when the decision was made I sat and had a long cry because I knew it meant the end of my grandfather's family and my grandmother's because both my dad and I had no siblings. But in the end it was the right decision, and anyone who whines that I "deprived" the family or the world of my offspring should just mind their own business.)

 

[Angst]

Haven't read the thread, only the OP.

The support from feminists I know on Facebook during Men's Day was extremely pleasant and relieving this year. I've experienced something specifically targeted towards me in my life that usually isn't taken seriously specifically because I'm biologically male, so this day really felt special this year. Support matters.

 

[amadeus]

But us men, we do not like to talk about our testicles... So many men do not end up doing simple checkups that could easily save their lives. This has got to stop, this idea that you are "too manly" to cry or talk about your health issues or mental health issues.

To add to this, it’s medicine. If something is wrong in the bathroom or with your privates, get it checked out. Depression and mental health issues too.

 

[EnglishEdward]

It does not apply to me, because Thomas Oaster didn't speak to my wife before choosing her birthday for it!

 

[GenMarshall]

I hate to say this Warpus, but I have a lot to unpack.

So, tell me.. men of Civfanatics.. What does it mean to you to belong to the male gender? Do you like the associated gender stereotypes and so called gender roles?

I’m gonna forwarn that I’m answering these questions from the perspective of ennui from the culture war I’ve been tossed into since 2016.

I’ve been told, mainly from SJW circles, that belonging to the male gender means that I’m part of the oppressor class (which I strongly disagree with), that I should feel guilt not only because I’m a male, but because I’m white and straight. And because I’m a white straight male, that my options are to be invalidated and not taken into consideration. Even my feelings are to be invalidated because I’m a male. For me, it makes me feel alienated.

Personally, I do not like the current associated negative stereotypes attributed to males. One comes to mind is being assumed that I’m a sexist mysogonist pig for liking a picture of an attractive woman (or a fan art of a female character I like), or play a video game that features an attractive woman. This gives me the general impression that not only feminist hate men, but are prudish sex negative bunch.

I honestly find it that women have it easier in terms of getting dates and not being a scapegoat in the current culture war. Where as men have to face rejection or at worse rape allegations and end up being scapegoated.

Very few outside of my circle of friends only know of my story. Being named called and alienated, saying that my interests are problematic, drove me to flirt with the Alt-right sphere because they were the only group that didint talked down to me or called me names that end with -ist and -phobe. On that note, I know I’m not alone since I’d fit the demographic that the Alt-right would actively target: white straight males who feel that they’re being marginalized by the movement of progressivism, typically nerdy or have nerdy interests, and aren’t used to progressive criticisms of their interest (or as much as I can paraphrase from Innuendo Studio’s The Alt Right Playbook: How to Radicalize a Normie).

Do you think it's possible for you, as a man, to both celebrate this day and your gender?

Given the political atmosphere of the the past decade. Much like how it’s impossible to be patriotic without being accused of being a nationalist. Or saying it’s ok to be white without being accused of being racist. I don’t think, for me, it’s possible to celebrate this day and my gender without being called a mysogonist sexist pig.

 

[warpus]

belonging to the male gender means that I’m part of the oppressor class

Nobody in this thread is saying such sexist things as far as I can see, so can we ignore the perhaps hypothetical extremists here and focus on what the thread set out to accomplish?

I understand you are going through some things in life. In many ways it isn't easy being a male, but in even more ways it isn't easy being female either. We are all going through life trying to deal with all of this, so maybe we can deal with this together.

Women have have had it "easier" when it comes to dating, but only from a certain perspective. A male usually does not have to worry about getting sexually assaulted on a first date (or worse). We've been living with gender roles for millions of years, they aren't going away anytime soon.

IMO if you attempt to oppose extremism with the opposite sort of extermism, it isn't going to help anything, it's only going to make things worse. As such, I prefer to celebrate this day as such - by using it as an opportunity to discuss gender issues and a male's place in today's confusing world, what we can do to improve, and what it even means to be male.

Very few outside of my circle of friends only know of my story. Being named called and alienated, saying that my interests are problematic, drove me to flirt with the Alt-right sphere because they were the only group that didint talked down to me or called me names that end with -ist and -phobe.

Do you have anyone to talk to about this in a professional capacity, such as a therapist? Turning to extremists will not help, it will only radicalize you and make you the very thing you say you despise - dressed up in another uniform, but nevertheless cut from the same cloth.

I also didn't have a very fun time in school, I was a shy kid who got picked on. I've had my share of bullies. I've had my share of personal pain.

The answer is to not become the people who torment you. The answer is to improve as a person and leave those people behind. The best revenge you can ever perpetrate on people who pick on you is to become a better person and leave them behind

 

[Cloud_Strife]

I think there needs to be a conversation around toxic masculinity (which was originally coined by a male to describe acts of masculinity that harmed the man or others around him) and what is and isn't "manly". You're not any less of a man if you don't enjoy sports or drink beer or exercise or like pink or aren't strong, etc.

 

[Birdjaguar]

Be kind; be caring; give your love away and do the best you can in whatever you choose to do. Most of the rest doesn't matter.

 

[warpus]

Yeah, any sort of toxic behaviour on this day (or any other day) would not reflect well on our gender. Remember, there are bigoted people out there that generalize based on gender. No need to give them extra ammo by being a jerk.

 

[Cloud_Strife]

Yeah, any sort of toxic behaviour on this day (or any other day) would not reflect well on our gender. Remember, there are bigoted people out there that generalize based on gender. No need to give them extra ammo by being a jerk.

Men are their own worst enemies ultimately.