Helping a newb

[lymond]

I had no idea there were bonuses for that. I didn't want to settle on the marble though, because I was under the impression it would consume the resource (and I wouldn't be able to use it)

ha...no. it will actually instantly give you the resource once you have the tech for it. However, it does mean you would not get the bonus for an improved marble tile. However, it is a trade off for the hammer bonus initially in the center tile of the city which boosts your first builds.

The city center is a standard 2F1H1C tile when the city is settled. This is always the case except for tiles that exceed any of those values. It's basically "what you see is what you get. So if you settle on a plains hill, which has 2H, your city will be 2F2H1C. Therefore you have an additional hammer at the start. Sometimes you have marble on a plains hill which is actually 3hammer yield, so the city would be 2F3H1C.

However, the most important thing is having a good city. FOOD is the most important thing in the game. FOOD is life and allows your cities to grow, grow fast, work more tiles, and overall be more productive. It also impacts the effectiveness of slavery - a very important early civic that takes new players quite a while to master.

Most important unit in the game = Worker
Most important building in the game = Granary
Most important tech in the game = Currency

Worst unit in the game - Scout

Just FOOD for thought

 

[lymond]

As for Amao posts, that thread is kind of a joke, but there is some wisdom to it. The joke really is that levels below Noble are very easy. I would disregard that for now. Just get some basics down on Chieftain and then let's bump you up to Noble for the next game. Once you get some basic concepts down you should destroy on any level below Noble.

edit: post a save with each update

ha...note that I edit my posts a lot

 

[Dr Turkleton]

-insert tons of helpful information here-

I'll take that information into mind. I honestly have no idea why I built a scout... Maybe I thought I started with a warrior, lol.

Anyways, any feedback on what I plan on doing next? Just keep on scouting, build a farm on the NW tile of my base, and maybe build a cottage on the W tile. (northwest, west, but I'm sure you knew)

 

[lymond]

Okay...

Another piece of advice on the start, is to first scout in a circular fashion around your capital. In other words, don't wander off too far in one direction. Your first goal is to find more spots to settle close by. Secondary is finding the AIs. They will find you too. (I'm a little surprised you have not met one yet) Use a 10 tile radius to start.

Usually, you want to start your first settler at Pop 3 or 4. However, I will often build a 2nd worker before the first settler. While growing get out 3 or 4 warriors to go out and spawnbust and protect future city sites.

Next tech should be Writing and then go to Priesthood and build the Oracle. We will discuss what to take with that later. This order might be different on higher levels, but on Chieftain you will get it easily with marble.

By the way, here's a really good thread to read through by VoiceofUnreason. It's a very basic tutorial/walkthrough designed for newer players. Something to do on your own time. VoU is a good player that is really good at instruction.

VoU

 

[lymond]

Also, now that you have BUG, note the dotmap feature. Alt-X turns it on. Ctl-X turns it off. It basically allows you to lay down proposed overlays of potential BFCs of new cities. Allows you to map out your land and ensure you make the best of it. Once you've scouted more thoroughly, you can give this a try and we can critique it.

 

[Dr Turkleton]

Turn 43

Spoiler :

Spoiler :

Those are the areas that I think would be good for expanding. The one to the far right, with the wheat and whale (which I can't even use) seem a bit too far. Haven't scouted the south, but I think it's a pretty good guess that there isn't much down there. If it is, it's probably one tile of fish. To the left -- mountains. Scout hasn't seen anything there, and looking back at the game itself I don't see anything. Second picture contains the area to the north. Not really sure if I should expand up there, but something is telling me that it wouldn't be a bad idea.

Also, I wanted to go ahead and wait a bit more, but my settler popped and I wasn't sure where to expand.

Building/Tech - Took a bit of extra time getting to Priesthood since I had to get meditation first. It's almost done though, and the Oracle will be coming soon. I built a farm on the NW tile of my base.

Sitting Bull came down from the south. (I'm assuming it's not all barren, otherwise he wouldn't be there. Unless the game wanted to put him on tundra or something.)

What to do next: Expand, obviously. Just continue improving tiles, and make some warriors for spawnbusting.

 

[coanda]

You need more scouting before you start planting cities to the E. Specifically, you need to check for seafood resources - warrior moves SE, NW, NW.

I don't think I like the NE city. Right now, it adds almost nothing to your empire (all the good stuff it works it'll be stealing from another city). Hopefully there's some seafood out in the fog for it; if you don't find any, I'd consider settling 2N2E of where you've got marked right now so at least it can work the pigs.

The Pig/Horse city is important if you want chariots soon; the floodplains city site will do quite nicely supporting early expansion and connects automatically to your capital by river for trade routes, so it's a good choice too. The corn + whale city and the NE city I'd probably let wait for a while while I focused on settling more cities to the N and W.

Also, I haven't used BUG myself, but I presume the little color palette off to the left lets you change the color of your dots when marking cities. This is a good thing so other players can easily discuss them (players can just refer to "the red city" or "the blue city," and there's no chance of miscommunication).

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

The Everyone's guide linked in my signature will give you some ideas about how to get help. For example, reading that would have warned you right away that turning on resource bubbles is important.

1) Priesthood now? You don't seem to have a tech plan -- are you just winging it? Or are taking advice from the same AI you hope to beat?

2) Your sheep city is fine where you've mapped it, but better would be one tile down (so that it gets access to fresh water from the river, and access to the ocean), or one tile up (putting the horses next to the city, and giving you 20 land tiles).

 

[Dr Turkleton]

The Everyone's guide linked in my signature will give you some ideas about how to get help. For example, reading that would have warned you right away that turning on resource bubbles is important.

Yeah, I was thinking about re-doing the first screenshot after I looked at it and saw that the resources weren't really viewable. Oh well. If I ever do this again, I'll make sure to do it next time. (At least I didn't have them off for all of the screenshots)

1) Priesthood now? You don't seem to have a tech plan -- are you just winging it? Or are taking advice from the same AI you hope to beat?

I'm just taking lymond's advice. Really, I have no tech plan whatsoever. I normally base it around what resources I have on me. Like if I had some iron or copper I'd lean towards getting some war units out (provided the AI was reasonably close.) But, knowing how I really don't have any clue how to play, that's kinda bad too.

I feel like I'm just being really dumb now and wasting people's time. Most of this stuff I'm sure can be found in guides and whatnot.

 

[lymond]

VoU - I told DrT to go for PH after Writing. He might as well get Oracle with marble, even though may not be the best from a "learning" standpoint.

I feel like I'm just being really dumb now and wasting people's time. Most of this stuff I'm sure can be found in guides and whatnot.

I do recommend that you read stuff that I and others have pointed out. I linked you to a VoU thread above and he did as well - another one. Check the War Academy and read Sisiutils intro. However, no need to be negative. Shadow games are the best way to learn. Most of us here are patient. As long as you stick with it and listen, you are in good shape.

Funny, VoU pointed out the same city spot I was going to recommend. Get that horse, sheep city 1W of the horse. Start another worker right now. Have the current worker follow the settler and improve the horse while building a monument. When city 2 hits size 2 and worker horse and sheep, chop out another worker. You will want to get a read to the new city as well to start a trade route. Usually I have that set up before the 1st settler comes out, but then I would have 2 workers by now.

In your cap, build another unit or 2 and keep one in the cap. New worker builds a mine and the chops forest on the hill just east and mines it. Chop will go into another settler.

Land looks pretty crappy to the south so that can probably wait a while. Next city should start expanding to the north. There's a gap a marginal land just north but land is very lush up north and the AI appear far away. you need to Scout the land though up northeast near the pigs and make sure you scout the coast for seafood.

I think your next tech path should be Alpha>Maths>Currency. You can use Oracle on CoL or even better Civil Service.

 

[Dr Turkleton]

Turn 59 (I think)

Spoiler :

View of the area north of my base. There was no seafood off to either side. I have a few ideas on where to settle, but I forgot to dotmap it so oh well.

Did pretty much what you said on the last post, might have done some things in the wrong area (still got the mines and the chops to go off in the right cities though).

Question: How do you decide which tech path to go?


Side note: Starting to actually re-think doing this. It doesn't really feel natural to me. I think what really would've been best is if I did this in a video or something. Just one long continuous play instead of stopping over and over.

 

[Farm Boy]

Side note: Starting to actually re-think doing this. It doesn't really feel natural to me. I think what really would've been best is if I did this in a video or something. Just one long continuous play instead of stopping over and over.

Would probably run the online game simultaneously with another game you are not playing online. Go a little slow with the updates on the online one to see how different players approach a single map, while giving yourself free reign with your offline game(s). If you have been playing reading for a week, there are still a ton of details that you will absorb during all eras of the game just seeing how AIs behave, reading tooltips, building different things, seeing what different techs unlock etc etc etc.

Online games are fantastic for pointing out things you would otherwise miss - heck, I would post one if I had the time at home and if I was not so rusty - but ultimately you also need to play around with different mechanics and suck mercilessly before the 5,000 different conflicting rules and game mechanics coalesce into the glory that is Civ 4.

Alternatively, you could hop into a Noble's Club game thread, download the save, play it on your own - stopping at the check points and reading the spoiler tags as the come along to see how different folks played it. That will be less on target for the game you are playing and maps will diverge pretty quickly - but it might be less intimidating/allow you to fit in some more games if you have the time to play while waiting on responses here.

 

[yatta77]

Side note: Starting to actually re-think doing this. It doesn't really feel natural to me. I think what really would've been best is if I did this in a video or something. Just one long continuous play instead of stopping over and over.

Uhm... please don't be offended here , but I don't think people would have time to watch a 2h/5h video for each beginner posting a game in here.

Besides this, and this is just my opinion and I can be wrong, I actually would give you the opposite advice, at least while learning the game: as soon as you see yourself hitting "enter" mechanically without thinking about what you are doing, this is the correct time to save the game and post about it, also if this happens after just 10-20 turns from the previous post.

Just my 2 here. If I'm wrong please someone correct me.

Finally I dare adding a couple of personal generic advice on game strategy, hoping I'm not messing up with better players explanations in here:
- lymond already (and correctly IMO) pointed out the importance of granary and currency; I would add another couple (tech and building) right after that, which can make some difference (in positive) no matter the strategy you are adopting: writing and library.
- make sure you understood the victory conditions before playing: I've been reading many beginner player posts describing games without references to victory conditions. I believe it is harder to win the game without knowing what you are supposed to do in order to win.

Again, I'm just trying to help, please correct anything is not correct in this post. Thanks

yatta.

 

[lymond]

Side note: Starting to actually re-think doing this. It doesn't really feel natural to me. I think what really would've been best is if I did this in a video or something. Just one long continuous play instead of stopping over and over.

DrT - This is still the best way to learn. However, it should not be the only way. As mentioned numerous times, keep checking around the forum and read some articles and threads we pointed out to you.

I think part of the problem - which I've just come to realize - is that you are very very green. So much of what we discuss with you has no context. This is why it may feel unnatural.

Really, the best thing I should have recommend, if I'd known this, is to read a couple of articles and play a few games on your own to practice the concepts - maybe even failing to win. Then come back on here an post a Noble game.

However, I still think you are learning here and just need to be patient. The online "shadow" game is reserved for learning and can run at a slow pace. Just because you are playing this game, doesn't mean you can't play a bunch of other games on your own and at your own pace.

As a sidenote, I and others have pointed out articles and threads to you, but I've really not seen any feedback on those comments. Are your reading up on anything?

 

[Dr Turkleton]

@yatta - Don't worry, I'm not offended. Makes perfect sense to me.

@lymond - Setting aside a few hours(and possibly more) to read all of those articles and whatnot before I play. (Was getting late last night and I figured I'd read them all in the morning when I have a bunch of time.)

As for what you guys are discussing having no context, I think it's because I don't really have a grasp of the game. Sure, I know how to do basic stuff but all the small details that just pile on go over my head. As a result, I think it would be better if I just end this here and play some games on my own, read up, and maybe check out the Nobles Club thing that Farm Boy mentioned.

When I feel that I'm ready, I'm more than likely going to start another one of these threads. I'm sorry that if anyone who was helping (particuarly lymond, since you did a majority of the posts) feel like I just wasted your time. It's just that if I do this again when I have a better grasp on the basics of the game and other important things, this will go a lot more smooth. (Plus I won't have to spend an hour re-uploading games and changing pictures and information )

 

[lymond]

Sounds like a good idea, DrT. Keep in mind that the first 50 to 100 turns are the most important. Read up on a few things and practice parts of it - maybe restarting the same game and playing 100 turns and then continuing on when you feel you've started to master some of the finer basic points. A later "shadow" game would indeed be more valuable and help fine tune your game and move you post Noble.

By the way, I would just play on Noble for now. Screw the lower difficulties. If you put into practice some of the things you read you will be fine.

2 places to start:

Sisiuitils guide in the War Academy (60% rule is outdated by the way, but you can use it as a guideline for now)

VoiceofUreason's Empire Foundation thread that I linked you to in an earlier post. It's a very nice basic walkthrough of a Noble game.

 

[yatta77]

EDIT: cross posting with the above one ^^

@yatta - Don't worry, I'm not offended. Makes perfect sense to me.

@lymond - Setting aside a few hours(and possibly more) to read all of those articles and whatnot before I play. (Was getting late last night and I figured I'd read them all in the morning when I have a bunch of time.)

As for what you guys are discussing having no context, I think it's because I don't really have a grasp of the game. Sure, I know how to do basic stuff but all the small details that just pile on go over my head. As a result, I think it would be better if I just end this here and play some games on my own, read up, and maybe check out the Nobles Club thing that Farm Boy mentioned.

When I feel that I'm ready, I'm more than likely going to start another one of these threads. I'm sorry that if anyone who was helping (particuarly lymond, since you did a majority of the posts) feel like I just wasted your time. It's just that if I do this again when I have a better grasp on the basics of the game and other important things, this will go a lot more smooth. (Plus I won't have to spend an hour re-uploading games and changing pictures and information )

Uhm... why don't play the next Noble Club anyways?

I was a Civ II player, and someone had the (probably bad?) idea to gift me this game when it was released in vanilla version, before the first patch, this is years ago.

In those years I've been (with big interruptions, of course, not continuously) playing the game and also I've been reading on this forum a lot of articles on game mechanisms, as combat, great people, and such. I managed to be able to win on emperor level quite regularly.

No matter that, before getting familiar with this section of the forum, I was kind of positive that the best generic approach was build a settler first. Yep, I missed such a basic (generic) thing for years: worker first is usually better.

Other people experience helps. Here, except few masters, the remaining 99.9% of the people mostly learns and improves, even the ones who dare to give advice to beginners!

Besides, it is FUN to play the same map with other people and compare, and it is a good excuse to do something social while doing something a bit alienating as playing a SP video game. And this is a friendly community!

If I was you, besides all the things you correctly said, I would also try to download the next Noble Club game, slowly play it, and post about it.

That said, you are free to do as you wish and what is the best for you, of course.

yatta.

 

[Farm Boy]

I'm sorry that if anyone who was helping (particuarly lymond, since you did a majority of the posts) feel like I just wasted your time.

Oh heavens, I think we are all playing here. We do not post because we need to, we post because we enjoy it!

 

[Dr Turkleton]

Are there any good 'guides' written on slavery? I'm reading Sisiuitil's Guide and there isn't really much information on how to use it effectively. I did a search and I came up with threads asking if it's worth using and whatnot, but none how to properly use it.

 

[lymond]

Are there any good 'guides' written on slavery? I'm reading Sisiuitil's Guide and there isn't really much information on how to use it effectively. I did a search and I came up with threads asking if it's worth using and whatnot, but none how to properly use it.

Here is one guide:

http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/food_growth.php

and another:

http://www.civfanatics.com/civ4/strategy/whip.php


Honestly, the concept of slavery and the whip is one of the hardest things to master at first. It takes quite a bit of practice and even after years, i'm sure I can do things better. BUG helps a lot with calculating the whip overflow. Whipping is about getting stuff out quicker but also maxxing out your hammer overflow to get other things built quicker. This is one reason why the granary is such an important building, and the first article goes into detail on why.

In order to practice whipping, you might try some dummy games. Just get the feel for growing a city, using the granary and its mechanics, whipping citizens and recovery. The use things like forges and Organized Religion to boost the effects of whipping.

edit: And here is a link to the War Academy in case you have not found it yet:

War Academy